Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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I don't like keeping a vote open for so long. If a vote I don't want is winning, then every time I visit the thread I'm reminded that somehow it might be possible to make an argument that turns things around. If I could only think of the right things to say, if I maybe started things up again, if I joined in on someone else's attempt, maybe. And if the vote I do want is winning, it's still something to worry about - what if this new argument someone made a dozen pages later suddenly picks up momentum? Should I dive back in, argue the same arguments again for the hundredth time, rather than letting go? What if, after all this time, the vote I want suddenly fails? And this can repeat over days, weeks, even months of waiting in suspense. The vote staying open for so long gives me, personally, this anxiety when I enter a thread to continue things long long after the vote effectively ended. I would really rather the vote was closed after a certain period, rather than staying open indefinitely.
There was in fact a few nights a month or two ago where I actually lost sleep worrying over this before consoling myself with the fact that it's been ages since anyone voted so it should be fine and the QM's closing it soon, right? And now this happens. Guess I have to brace for impact, because I don't actually have another choice.
 
Well, seems I have a promise to keep.

[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV
[X] Plan Not Pickle Requests Variant with Apparitions

And I do understand the frustration about a vote you thought was settled shifting, but like, Boney also raises some solid points. I think fundamentally the best advice I can give - especially in a thread this large - is to embrace that all is chaos and control is an illusion. No, actually, you almost certainly can't make your preferred option win just by Posting Harder; in turn, that frees you from any obligation to try and do so.
 
Which this post actually demonstrates. People stopped arguing because it is almost always sisyphean. The part you have to do in order to still be competitive is... like, it's not literally a zero sum game, new ideas can emerge sometimes, but by the numbers being present on the latest page is more important than what you're present with. There's only so much space on the latest page, and there's always going to be another page after that.

When it's gotten to the point of people going in circles with the same talking points for days, it's just preferable for arms to be laid down and to let things settle where they may. Quests are for having fun, not winning polls against other posters.

Votes are a cost of doing business, a means to an end, not the point. Arguing over them is seldom where the best ideas come out, that's why moratoriums exist.

The 5-10 vote gap thing meanwhile is... not actually uncommon. It's more common than uncommon, even, though it'd take too long to explain why.

And putting limits on how much effort anyone can throw into that task is just... being responsible, imo. Quest campaigning sucks, don't let it go on for longer than it has to.
It's up to you how much you want to engage with the quest in general or any given vote. If the Quests's writer sees fit to leave the vote open and people keep voting, then good. Especially since this thread never stops discussing things to the point of inventing ideas out of almost nothing that eventually get pushed into future votes because of how much time people have spent talking about them, discussing new RPG books almost like this is a general thread or re-litigating topics that most people thought were discussed to death 100 pages ago.
 
And I do understand the frustration about a vote you thought was settled shifting, but like, Boney also raises some solid points. I think fundamentally the best advice I can give - especially in a thread this large - is to embrace that all is chaos and control is an illusion. No, actually, you almost certainly can't make your preferred option win just by Posting Harder; in turn, that frees you from any obligation to try and do so.
But that's what real life is for - screaming into the void helplessly as I watch things I like go down in flames while absolute excrement is enshrined, with nothing I do mattering in the slightest. And if I wanted fiction I had no control over, that's what following fics is for. Isn't the whole point of a quest that a voter can actually affect the story?
 
Well, seems I have a promise to keep.

[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV
[X] Plan Not Pickle Requests Variant with Apparitions

And I do understand the frustration about a vote you thought was settled shifting, but like, Boney also raises some solid points. I think fundamentally the best advice I can give - especially in a thread this large - is to embrace that all is chaos and control is an illusion. No, actually, you almost certainly can't make your preferred option win just by Posting Harder; in turn, that frees you from any obligation to try and do so.
This line of thought feels like it falls flat when this vote outcome is observably the result of specific users advocating for and posting in favor of specific plans like crazy 😆 I mean maybe there are thread votes where this advice applies, but this sure wasn't one of them
 
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It's up to you how much you want to engage with the quest in general or any given vote. If the Quests's writer sees fit to leave the vote open and people keep voting, then good. Especially since this thread never stops discussing things to the point of inventing ideas out of almost nothing that eventually get pushed into future votes because of how much time people have spent talking about them, discussing new RPG books almost like this is a general thread or re-litigating topics that most people thought were discussed to death 100 pages ago.
I feel this is a callous position to take, considering the honest and vulnerable discussions of voting anxiety happening around us.

It is a quest master's job to create a fun and inviting environment for play. It is the players' job to be aware and respectful of each others' needs and desired level of engagement - including how and why that can differ from their actual level of engagement.

Anybody who says that the subject of the immortal XKCD #386 likes that he is putting off going to bed is fooling themselves. Providing incentives for people to argue perpetually is not a good thing, no matter how many times you say "just don't then". We're only having this discussion because some people were rewarded for resuming the argument.

What speaks louder? Backhanded advice to just care less, or victory?
 
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Honestly the vote itself never felt comfortable to me because I never felt like earning a Boon was the point of any of the choices made with the AV or creating the Orbs. It's closer to the canal or the gunpowder factory when the reward is players wanting to feel like we had a positive impact on the setting.

Or maybe if I wanted a "reward" for Mathilde it was interesting narrative consequences. Rather than an open ended vote, I would have like three things Boney thinks would be interesting to write as a reward that he thinks would have a fun impact on the quest and then we pick which one we want to see.

Does Boney have any desire to write an airship? I have not clue. Will Pickle's list of favors be an exercise in tedious box checking with unexciting answers? I don't know. Is Boney interested in making any of the options narratively interesting?
 
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It's... well, more it's the incentive structure it creates when, at any time during a months long period, a vote could become active again and if it's not you doing it, then it might be a competitor to what you like doing it. Nobody likes to point it out, but recency bias is an overwhelming force in forum quest campaigning. If some form of your thesis isn't on the most recent page, you're pretty much always losing ground to whoever's vote and arguments are.

It really seems to me that recency bias would have a significant uphill battle against the dropoff in interaction from the majority - something that you yourself brought up earlier - and people mentally considering it settled. That this is able to swing at all seems to me to indicate that this isn't just... dangling a shiny new argument like jangling keys in front of the voters and them being so entranced by something novel that they blindly follow.

Part of the reason I haven't closed the vote is that at no point has this felt settled, because of the plurality, because of the narrow margin, and because of the general vibes, which I don't think I can elaborate on without putting my finger on the scale. When a vote is close, I think it's more important than ever to stick to the original plan for when the vote will close to prevent any possibility, real or imagined, of me deciding the vote by when I close it. And the plan for this one, when the scene the vote will result in will probably be a couple paragraphs of 'cool beans, we'll get right on that' and then four very challenging, completely unrelated, and already determined social actions, was that I close it when I was either had the four social actions (or, quite possibly, two overgrown ones that weigh in at about four normal ones) and ready to write those two paragraphs, or when things seemed so settled that things were undeniably set in stone. And I never felt that things were undeniably set in stone. I still don't.

(In hindsight, it can be argued that it would have been better to be able to foresee that this update would kick my ass and break from what's worked for seven years and have a preset point where the vote would close. But that absolutely can't be made the case mid-vote. Once the terms of the vote are set and the vote is opened, they really need to be abided by. Even if I'm the only one that would know that they changed. Especially then. Do not tempt me, Frodo.)

And... well, this kind of proves that the feeling I had that this wasn't settled was justified, doesn't it? It was a metastable dynamic. If there was a clear winner, everything wouldn't be rattling around from a jostle. Believe me, I've seen a lot of attempts at very late rallies and a lot of them shift single digit votes and then fizzle out. Recency is not destiny.

It kind of sucks to be winning, and have a vote left open for months enable a last minute rally. It'd also kind of suck to have a split vote not get resolved because the vote closed before someone managed to articulate the resolution to that tension. It just plain kind of sucks to not win, to have a preferred way for the story to go and for it to not go that way. Honestly, I sometimes feel like I have it easier than any of you do.
 
[X] Armor of von Tarnus
[X] Plan: The Prismatic Wanderer
[X] Elector-Countess
[X] Break College Favor/ Tenure
[X] Plan Not Pickle Requests Variant with Apparitions

Not particularly fond of the grab bag, but if we're going for it I'd at least like to add the option to potentially save some AP.
 
Fine then.

[X] Plan All the Books
-[X] Ambers: Their Books
-[X] Lights: Their Books
-[X] Golds: Their Books
-[X] Jades: Their Books
-[X] Celestials: Their Books
-[X] Greys: Their Books
-[X] Amethysts: Their Books
-[X] Brights: Their Books
 
The most frustrating thing to me is that the plan that swung is... Frankly, and without any shade, the one I want the least. To the point where I'm thinking of changing my vote to Armor. Like I'm not arguing about voting due dates or people's agency, I just really dislike this choice.
 
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[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV

Alright, if people want a compromise I don't mind this option badly enough to follow?
Though it is kind of funny how we have nothing to ask from Jades and Celestials but CF / Bankrolling here.

(Still would prefer Armor, but such is the nature of compromises)
 
Yeah actually screw it. I'm changing my vote to an approval vote, I want the airship but I like the armor and dislike the requests

[X] Plan: The Prismatic Wanderer
-[X] A flying warship, suited for both exploration and warfare
-[X] Comfortable for small groups of people to live in for extended periods of time, and capable in an emergency of transporting a medium-sized groups of elite forces from one place to another (e.g. Empire Knights, Dwarf Ironbreakers, Eonir Ghost Striders, KAU scribes)
-[X] Wizardy aesthetic - dragon figurehead on the prow, living tree serving as central mast, bottom possibly wreathed in fog, etc.
-[X] Has magical weaponry and/or defenses (e.g. Dragon figurehead on the prow might fill enemy forces with the fear of death, ballistas on the sides might shoot out fireballs, a Flock of Doom might emerge from a literal crow's nest, etc)
-[X] Possibly needs to be crewed by Perpetuals
-[X] Possibly flat-bottomed to allow for landing on firm ground, if that makes sense vibes-wise

[X] Armor of von Tarnus
 
It really seems to me that recency bias would have a significant uphill battle against the dropoff in interaction from the majority - something that you yourself brought up earlier - and people mentally considering it settled. That this is able to swing at all seems to me to indicate that this isn't just... dangling a shiny new argument like jangling keys in front of the voters and them being so entranced by something novel that they blindly follow.
Eh, maybe, maybe not. I've been around the block a lot, but I'm not lying when I say that this is a corner case - it is not easy to find examples of a vote being open this long and then suddenly swinging. There are no patterns to point to, no rules of thumb to describe what is happening.

Which is also why I'm concerned about whether or not it correlates to a change in overall player desires, because it being uncharted territory puts that into question, too. How sure are we that we're improving our measurement of the playerbase's sentiment?

More thoughts about that question below the break.
And... well, this kind of proves that the feeling I had that this wasn't settled was justified, doesn't it? It was a metastable dynamic. If there was a clear winner, everything wouldn't be rattling around from a jostle. Believe me, I've seen a lot of attempts at very late rallies and a lot of them shift single digit votes and then fizzle out. Recency is not destiny.

It kind of sucks to be winning, and have a vote left open for months enable a last minute rally. It'd also kind of suck to have a split vote not get resolved because the vote closed before someone managed to articulate the resolution to that tension. It just plain kind of sucks to not win, to have a preferred way for the story to go and for it to not go that way. Honestly, I sometimes feel like I have it easier than any of you do.
I honestly can't even put my finger on what the resolution to that tension was. It's buried somewhere in a no man's land of 20-30 pages. I've been disconnected with the thread more than connected with it for some time - and, like, damn, I'm an effort poster, here! If I'm blindsided and unsure of exactly what's happening, then what's going on with anyone else?

The thing about a swing happening after people's "guard" is down is more than just about winning or losing, it's about attentiveness period. A major development in thesis and rhetoric now is just... who's there to see it? Who's there to criticize or pick it apart? Is it really new, or something old that was independently thought up and articulated?

Who is engaged? It's... I mean, not necessarily random, but this is rare enough of a situation that to me it may as well be.

All of the pomp and circumstance that normally surrounds a vote... the thought leaders, the surrogates, the Q&A, not all of it is still there and present, because nobody has called them here. Until you look inside, the thread looks identical to how it does when the vote is dead.

So how can we be sure if the thread at large has changed its mind, when only part of the thread is there for whatever it is that did change?

How can we be sure that it's fair to those who only checked in after the threadmark, and set it aside to avoid a forever argument, confident that things had hit diminishing returns?

You make good points, and the "choose the winner by closing the vote along a sine wave" pitfall is very real, but I still can't help but feel that somewhere along the line should have been a release valve.

I dunno.
 
But that's what real life is for - screaming into the void helplessly as I watch things I like go down in flames while absolute excrement is enshrined, with nothing I do mattering in the slightest. And if I wanted fiction I had no control over, that's what following fics is for. Isn't the whole point of a quest that a voter can actually affect the story?
This line of thought feels like it falls flat when this vote outcome is observably the result of specific users advocating for and posting in favor of specific plans like crazy 😆 I mean maybe there are thread votes where this advice applies, but this sure wasn't one of them
It's really rather more that voters collectively can affect the story, at least at the scale of one of the largest quests in the entire forum. One person's efforts are at best going to be a nudge in one direction or another, and if you're not lucky it may not even be the one you were aiming for. Now, as Boney's observed, this vote was apparently in a metastable state such that a nudge was enough to set it back into motion - but predicting when a vote is in such a state, much less what precise kind of nudge is needed to get it moving, let alone to get it moving to where you want it to go...that's an exercise in futility. Nor is it zero-cost to try - TBH I think a compelling case could be made that the negativity from both sides of the Airship vs. Armor war was a meaningful contributor to why neither of those votes is currently winning. Much better to just accept that the vote will do what it will and only engage when the engagement itself is enjoyable.
 
But that's what real life is for - screaming into the void helplessly as I watch things I like go down in flames while absolute excrement is enshrined, with nothing I do mattering in the slightest. And if I wanted fiction I had no control over, that's what following fics is for. Isn't the whole point of a quest that a voter can actually affect the story?
I mean this in the gentlest way possible, but everyone else here is too.
 
[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV

Alright, if people want a compromise I don't mind this option badly enough to follow?
Though it is kind of funny how we have nothing to ask from Jades and Celestials but CF / Bankrolling here.

(Still would prefer Armor, but such is the nature of compromises)
There is a version that asks for whispering darknesses from the jades. It's this one:

[X] Plan Not Pickle Requests Variant with Apparitions

And while I think it's fine enough, I'm just really, really not fine with a half baked plan that used raw CF as a placeholder winning out just because three months ago it was a first mover. I'll take just about anything over that, at this point.

[x] Plan: The Next Generation
-[x] Use the whole boon to have the gold college teach Eike everything she can learn about material-enchantment, alchemy(-adjacent if alchemy itself is too much), and all-around enhancing and supplementing her Natural Alchemist trait until she's a walking talking reverse-engineering machine that can pick up magical crafting skills lightning quick.

The above is still my preferred option, 0% chance of winning though it may have. For runners up...

[X] Elector-Countess
[X] Plan: The Prismatic Wanderer
[X] Plan: The Prismatic Wanderer (Researcher ver)
[X] Cooperate with the dwarves on creating the plans for a flying ship type that can, in theory, be regularly produced - plus dibs on a prototype of a larger ship when such is built

[X] Armor of von Tarnus
 
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There's the option to count the votes using the Instant-runoff method, but that would require a decent amount of work to collate all the voted plans and then recollect everyone's votes. It's not a great option, but it would give a more defined majority vote.
 
This is where I see the Waystone project going next to be honest. There are new ones being placed, the ability and price is known to five old world powers and Mathilde is the obvious cinchpoint of it. Even ignoring what Eltharion said about Ulthuan reciprocating even more as more happens there are low hanging fruit that can help our allies and get them to commit.

The Blood Fane if purified really helps the Hedgewise and Ostland, the power could even be sent to Kislev. Mordheim was purged again and west of Karak Kadrin, another good way to help the Karaz Ankor for relatively low stakes if it is directed there way. That is kind of the way I see the flying ship as a tool for the Waystone project. A great many of them appear vulnerable to an skilled strike team, and the ones that aren't are either worth it for a province (Mordheim) or are such a huge commitment that it's better to keep banking the good will to get the commitment (Hell Wars and Skaven).
The Blood Fane is not going to be directed into Kislev. The Empire knows that waystones can be tapped into to provide benefits. It lays in Imperial territory, it's going to be mostly Imperial blood that is shed to reclaim it. It's going to benefit the Empire. The Ice Witches also wouldn't accept it. It would lie in Imperial control and risk an outsider 'contaminating the pristine flows of the Ice Magic' or whatever. I doubt Mordheim would be redirected as it'd mostly be Imperial blood being shed. I could see it being used to convince the Dwarves to connect their network to the main network though.

A flying ship would not be helpful for reclaiming the corrupted nexuses. There's no point in it. You need to be able to hold the nexus from reprisals once you have taken it back. Purification of the nexuses would probably take a decent amount of study to do, something that is difficult if you only have a strike team between you and the gribblies. You want armies between the nexus technicians and the gribblies. You want plenty of workers building fortifications. You want loads of supplies.

Mordheim would be worth it for Ostermark. Its Elector Count, Hertwig, is one of the front contenders for Emperor if Luitpold dies early. Cleansing Mordheim would be a great feather in his cap. Mordheim is also the nexus for all of Southern Ostermark. Reclaiming the nexus would be the first step in cleansing all of that taint, which would do wonders. Ostermark is also allied to Karak Kadrin, who would surely appreciate a nearby gribbly source being cleared out. Stirland would also appreciate it, Mordheim was the nexus for part of Sylvania. It'd make placing waystones in Sylvania easier.

I doubt we'd be the ones to organize the Hellwars. We could probably help, but it's going to be mostly run by High King Thorgrim. It would have to be a Karaz Ankor-wide effort, and Mathilde isn't that influential.

Or maybe if I wanted a "reward" for Mathilde it was interesting narrative consequences. Rather than an open ended vote, I would have like three things Boney thinks would be interesting to write as a reward that he thinks would have a fun impact on the quest and then we pick which one we want to see.
It was a while ago, but Boney mentioned having difficulties figuring out how the Colleges would compensate Mathilde for her discovery, and so gave the question to the thread. Problem is, it seems, the thread didn't have a firm idea either. :V

I still prefer to just bank the boon for the next arc.

- I've been trying to work out what the orb reward is going to be for way too long, so I'm passing the problem to you. There will be a twenty-four hour moratorium. Voting will be in plan format when voting for one thing from each College. Have fun.
 
[X] Plan: The Prismatic Wanderer

Just looked back and realized the absurdity of the situation that at some point two-three months ago I had a vote for the pickle shotgun plan in a list of votes that made sense at the time as a potential anti-armor vote if any of them picked up speed, but things changed enough over the course of this months long vote that maintaining it now is actually just a vote against my actual preferred option, so I'm not going back to edit what was a hedged vote at the time which just feels guh in a way I can't articulate properly😔
 
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Yeesh, there goes the airship. Shame.
[X] Plan Not Pickle Requests Variant with Apparitions
[X] Plan: The Prismatic Wanderer
[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV
I'm approval voting in part for the possibility that the Wanderer has a resurgence, but I really just don't want the armor. It legitimately just feels depressing that Mathilde would get it, it feels more fitting in just about any other LM's hands. I could make a big argument against it, but frankly that already happened months ago, so now I'm doing this.
 
Speaking for myself, there was a point where I was anxious about the possible loss of the airship, where I followed the thread's shifting votes like a gambler at a horse race. That point... was months ago. Now, I can only muster some small satisfaction that so many voted for the airship, and that it stayed in the lead for so long.

I do wish something else other than the request list was at the lead though. I barely like one, maybe two, of the things on it, while the version with apparitions, which I'm approval voting, barely bumps that number up to three. At least if it was the armor I could console myself that I really like that too. Going from something I really like to something I might at best three-eighths like is hard.
 
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