Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
MiracleGrow
Miracles for only $19.99 [They/Them]
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Honestly same, I gotta tap out for a while.
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[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV
[X] Armor of von Tarnus
[X] Armor of von Tarnus
Yes, all of them. They're all just single locations. The Blood Fane is just guarded by a minotaur, and you can clear cut your way to it with an army. The Brass Keep is just a normal fortress that can be besieged, albeit Nurgle. The Tower of Melkhior might not be. It would be targeting a wizard in a place he's been preparing for millennia, but Mathilde hasn't really thought of it in a way comparable to the Hellwars. Mordheim was actually purged relatively recently, so it shouldn't be that bad to reclaim. The Marcher Fortress though is probably comparable and probably not worth it.
The Forest of Gloom hellwar means fighting into the Dreaming Woods of the Forest of Gloom. That's going to be an extremely nasty fight. It's easier than they initially thought, believing that they would have to kill every beastman and greenskin in the forest, but still nasty. The Vaults hellwar means going on the offensive against the Skaven into their warrens.
🤑
Oh, you were talking in-universe?
I'm surprised it was Miao Ying rather than Yin-Yin. Kislev's borders are supposed to expand all the way to Cathay. So they might have traveled that way. But there's also a Cathayan ship off the coast of the Old World, so it might have been by sea. I'm reminded of one of Boney's comments about the ideal time to set it in having been around when Mordheim was destroyed. My guess is that they just gave a silly excuse that doesn't make sense when you think about it. Maybe she was personally concerned about the Everchosen defeating the west and using its resources against Cathay for the next go?
Wait, isn't it supposed to be civil war time in Cathay? Monkey King and all that?
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There's a common thought that it's bad manners to relitigate old votes, which has me scratching my head here because technically the vote never ended but also... yeah, three months. Bit of a corner case, that.
Do votes at this point in time even really represent popular player opinion anymore? You're not exactly getting an even sample of people, mostly just the thread heads that stick around to shoot the shit between updates.
The arguments for each option certainly aren't evenly in focus, there's no starting gun for the thread to go from "casual quest setting talk" to "suddenly talking about the vote again" like there is when there's a threadmark.
This contrasts with... well, with active forever-votes where people exhaust themselves forever trying to argue between close options in a weeks long slog. I saw somebody talk about laying down arms when it came to approval votes around armor of von tarnus, but the vote settling into place without it actually being closed is another form of laying down arms to avoid... well, the kind of active forever-vote that miserably exhausts everyone. If people don't stop pushing sometime, then it'll go on back and forth with no clear end.
I don't like that. I don't like the idea that to represent an interest in a quest, you have to keep an eye on its general discussion for months just in case an open vote suddenly becomes active again.
There's no agreed on etiquette for this situation. Nothing that said out loud that people shouldn't pick the vote back up. It's just...
It's just off.
Do votes at this point in time even really represent popular player opinion anymore? You're not exactly getting an even sample of people, mostly just the thread heads that stick around to shoot the shit between updates.
The arguments for each option certainly aren't evenly in focus, there's no starting gun for the thread to go from "casual quest setting talk" to "suddenly talking about the vote again" like there is when there's a threadmark.
This contrasts with... well, with active forever-votes where people exhaust themselves forever trying to argue between close options in a weeks long slog. I saw somebody talk about laying down arms when it came to approval votes around armor of von tarnus, but the vote settling into place without it actually being closed is another form of laying down arms to avoid... well, the kind of active forever-vote that miserably exhausts everyone. If people don't stop pushing sometime, then it'll go on back and forth with no clear end.
I don't like that. I don't like the idea that to represent an interest in a quest, you have to keep an eye on its general discussion for months just in case an open vote suddenly becomes active again.
There's no agreed on etiquette for this situation. Nothing that said out loud that people shouldn't pick the vote back up. It's just...
It's just off.
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xamaplak
WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU'RE @SOUP?
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And an act worthy of a Nobel Peace prize, especially if it involves genocide.
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[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV
NavySeel
"I don't know what I'm doing."
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Pretty sure it's to sell more models. Miao Ying is probably the better known more popular option for Dragon to show up, considering she was in trailers, and is practically the default Cathay leader in game. and she might be the one of the only warhammer characters I've seen with the ability to exploit the "Waifu" factor.
She's pretty popular in certain parts of the internet that I wont go into any further talking about.
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xamaplak
WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU'RE @SOUP?
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Are you telling me that nobody wants waifu Margaret Thatcher?!?
Everyone still gets one vote, and the vote of someone that made it as soon as voting opened counts as much as someone that makes it today. For that reason I can't really see how 'popular player opinion' could be suborned by a late rally without it having just as much popularity.
I think two reasons for the weird feeling about this are:
First, an inherent flaws with a winner-takes-all vote when nobody has a clear majority. I don't know whether this is a matter of there just plain not being an option that has wide enough appeal to get a clear majority, or approval voting being underutilized. In either case, a more widely liked option being found or awareness of approval voting spreading enough to get a clear winner, even this late in the game, I think would be a win, but failing that, just shifting around the plurality winner would very understandably feel bad when it's shifting away from what you like.
Second, me being unable to get this update done, which, yeah. That's on me.
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It's... well, more it's the incentive structure it creates when, at any time during a months long period, a vote could become active again and if it's not you doing it, then it might be a competitor to what you like doing it. Nobody likes to point it out, but recency bias is an overwhelming force in forum quest campaigning. If some form of your thesis isn't on the most recent page, you're pretty much always losing ground to whoever's vote and arguments are.
This is a dynamic that always makes close votes tense and grinding, but they're at least over after a while. I think I would go literally insane if people didn't somehow silently agree to just... stop talking about the open vote after a while in this quest, most of the time.
And then after that it's the question of "do people even still feel the same way about what they're voting for after three months?" - I'm not going to ask "would it be better to vote over from scratch", I've seen that done and people hate it, but more I think it's an argument for, just...
Well, for just closing the vote after a while whether or not you're ready to write. Voting periods are one of the things that put safe limits on quest engagement, and the disappointment you describe is one of the things that would motivate people creeping towards less than healthy levels of engagement.
That's my vibe, anyways.
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I got an alert from the OP making a post of sufficient length in the thread and apparently something is going on with the vote? I don't even remember what option I voted for now. What is the new argument that is changing minds?
I mean, since we can approval vote, I'd argue that you really don't need to keep up with the discussion. There are plenty of people "representing" all the major options, just read the last few pages.
Once you've voted, your vote is still in. Sure, others might bring new arguments or even new plans, but those don't influence your own chosen options, your vote still counts just the same.
It might feel bad when your choosen option loses steam, but on the other hand, the change represents the majority getting a more desired or thoughtout outcome. Ask yourself, would you really feel the same way if it was your chosen option that took the lead?
Better explained my feelings than me lol.
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There's also the fact that people often literally don't read the older stuff. Maybe they'll go a few pages after the update itself, but after that they'll stop bothering and jump straight to the end. So any arguments made in that middle basically might well have never been written at all in their eyes.
I've been guilty of that myself a few times.
shepsquared
Erratic Aussie
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It's not like discussion of the vote abruptly stopped 3 months ago. It's come up a few times since then, and there's been a a steady enough trickle of new votes or changing votes that it's shocking to me that two top votes still stayed about the same distance apart (5-10 votes difference at any given time, not a huge gap). The only reason I stopped trying to make arguments against the ship is that it would have turned into me being very negative about it for a decent period of time, not because I thought people couldn't change their minds or that the vote was closed.
And considering the discussion continued and the voting continued there's an argument to be made that all votes should stay open longer, or should have longer moratoriums or any number of things. The only reason to close off voting after x days when we don't know if the update is going to take that long or a few months is to privilege the early arguments and initial options that build up steam.
Shard
One and Many
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I mean, I think there's definitely the possibility of an underdog vote option we have hereto not-considered but which everyone likes coming up and taking the vote by the storm.
I believe such a vote possibility (at this stage in the vote) would likely have one or more of these traits:
1) Is inherently Cool and feels Awesome. We want something that we will see in updates going forward.
a) By extension this likely means that it's a one-line option, because single things tend to be more cool than multiple things.
2) Doesn't feel 'selfish' - Yes, the vote says we can be as selfish as we like, but I believe the playerbase doesn't really like those kind of votes very much.
a) By extension this likely means the new proposed vote is Setting-Altering.
3) Feels Rewarding. I realize this is contradiction to point 2, but I think that contradiction is also why none of the votes have more than 50% of the votes so far.
a) Solving mysteries both minor and major would count, as would magic items or secrets or concessions to Mathilde the character.
Now, I think it's possible this Venn Diagram of requirements does not actually have an intersection, but it's also possible that one does exists, and I think if it does exist and we think of it, it'll probably garner votes very rapidly.
edit: Looking back now, I think this also explains why The Library ended up so successful.
I believe such a vote possibility (at this stage in the vote) would likely have one or more of these traits:
1) Is inherently Cool and feels Awesome. We want something that we will see in updates going forward.
a) By extension this likely means that it's a one-line option, because single things tend to be more cool than multiple things.
2) Doesn't feel 'selfish' - Yes, the vote says we can be as selfish as we like, but I believe the playerbase doesn't really like those kind of votes very much.
a) By extension this likely means the new proposed vote is Setting-Altering.
3) Feels Rewarding. I realize this is contradiction to point 2, but I think that contradiction is also why none of the votes have more than 50% of the votes so far.
a) Solving mysteries both minor and major would count, as would magic items or secrets or concessions to Mathilde the character.
Now, I think it's possible this Venn Diagram of requirements does not actually have an intersection, but it's also possible that one does exists, and I think if it does exist and we think of it, it'll probably garner votes very rapidly.
edit: Looking back now, I think this also explains why The Library ended up so successful.
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Converting this amazing Colleges boon into an admittedly large number of lesser options that all feel like they could just be purchased with either gold or College Favor if they were things the thread wanted when getting to this stage required I think 40 College Favor in Powerstones in the first place was never going to feel good but it is what it is 😐
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I don't like keeping a vote open for so long. If a vote I don't want is winning, then every time I visit the thread I'm reminded that somehow it might be possible to make an argument that turns things around. If I could only think of the right things to say, if I maybe started things up again, if I joined in on someone else's attempt, maybe. And if the vote I do want is winning, it's still something to worry about - what if this new argument someone made a dozen pages later suddenly picks up momentum? Should I dive back in, argue the same arguments again for the hundredth time, rather than letting go? What if, after all this time, the vote I want suddenly fails? And this can repeat over days, weeks, even months of waiting in suspense. The vote staying open for so long gives me, personally, this anxiety when I enter a thread to continue things long long after the vote effectively ended. I would really rather the vote was closed after a certain period, rather than staying open indefinitely.
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I'd have mixed feelings at best, because I've been in forum questing for over a decade at this point and my opinions about how vote duration and campaigning work were formed by a lot more than this specific poll.
I think it's absurd to claim that a significant portion of the voter base has caught up on what is happening right now. Most people drop in, check some combination of the update page, the last page, and the tally, then they vote with 0-2 short sentences of commentary, and then they don't come back until the next threadmark.
Effective campaigning in form quests is always, always, always constrained by this reality, but as a player you have to set limits on what you're willing to do.
Which this post actually demonstrates. People stopped arguing because it is almost always sisyphean, long haul vote arguments are a miserable slog for an advantage that disappears the moment you stop, and attracts other people to do it against you, it sucks! After the third, fourth, fifth repetition, the excitement and energy is gone, it just feels bad and gets you worked up for the sake of making a number go up! An argument that actually *ends with a concession* is a unicorn and we all know it.
The part you have to do in order to still be competitive is... like, it's not literally a zero sum game, new ideas can emerge sometimes, but by the numbers being present on the latest page is more important than what you're present with. There's only so much space on the latest page, and there's always going to be another page after that.
When it's gotten to the point of people going in circles with the same talking points for days, it's just preferable for arms to be laid down and to let things settle where they may. Quests are for having fun, not winning polls against other posters.
Votes are a cost of doing business, a means to an end, not the point. Arguing over them is seldom where the best ideas come out, that's why moratoriums exist.
The 5-10 vote gap thing meanwhile is... not actually uncommon. It's more common than uncommon, even, though it'd take too long to explain why.
And putting limits on how much effort anyone can throw into that task is just... being responsible, imo. Quest campaigning sucks, don't let it go on for longer than it has to.
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[X] Break College Favor/ Tenure
[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV
[X] Save the boon until we choose our next project
[X] Armor of von Tarnus
[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV
[X] Save the boon until we choose our next project
[X] Armor of von Tarnus
NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
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It was so desirous that we've already done it, because that's what WEB-MAT is.
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- Earth
Yeah, that was why I didn't choose that one. I wanted a big thing no amount of regular CF to get us, because it was a big favor that no amount of normal academic papers could earn.
But we already have WEB-MAT. What else would we do with another branch college?
You know what thinking about it more there's a silver lining in that at least we only squandered 1/8 of this one on the thread's insane book addiction instead of the whole thing like we normally do😆Time to gear up for the Turn 45 Nagarythe agenda wars 😤 Well, that and trying to prevent players from artificially stretching the Waystone project into 2027 or something because there's some niche use case that wasn't covered😔
This is where I see the Waystone project going next to be honest. There are new ones being placed, the ability and price is known to five old world powers and Mathilde is the obvious cinchpoint of it. Even ignoring what Eltharion said about Ulthuan reciprocating even more as more happens there are low hanging fruit that can help our allies and get them to commit.
The Blood Fane if purified really helps the Hedgewise and Ostland, the power could even be sent to Kislev. Mordheim was purged again and west of Karak Kadrin, another good way to help the Karaz Ankor for relatively low stakes if it is directed there way. That is kind of the way I see the flying ship as a tool for the Waystone project. A great many of them appear vulnerable to an skilled strike team, and the ones that aren't are either worth it for a province (Mordheim) or are such a huge commitment that it's better to keep banking the good will to get the commitment (Hell Wars and Skaven).