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The Heir of the Dragon: A Rhaenyra Targaryen Quest
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Loveless sounds derogatory here. All our matches would be political, rather than emotional, and that is the norm for most marriages in the nobility, too. Any matches between our children likely would be that, too. As per our Romantic trait, well, we have Alicent for love. So while increasingly many things are speaking against this match, this "lovelessness" is not one of them. It's just the norm.
Also, come to think of it, just because we can't and hence won't practice the standard Targaryen option this generation doesn't mean we won't be expected to next generation.
- Location
- Pittsburgh PA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Plan Talking Through Our Fists
- Location
- Up ya bum!
[X] Plan Getting To Know Things
Jaehaerys is such an interesting and divisive character.
He managed to do a lot of good for the realm and bring stability and peace to the seven kingdoms like they probably have never known before in history.
But his shortsighted choices and worse actions had consequences for centuries and caused incredible amounts of suffering for Westeros and Essos.
I was referring to "loveless" partly in a bit more of a vulgar manner here. In most other political marriages our partner will not be physically sick during the act of producing heirs. With Laenor we are unlikely to have many children, the act itself will be highly stressful, and we'll never have all that close of a relationship as we each split off to spend time with our respective actual partners. Plus, if it ever gets out that the Queen is getting cucked on a regular basis that will be a decent hit to our reputation and attempt to portray ourselves as an authoritative ruler.
Barring a similarily disasterous Dance as in canon House Velaryon will retain dragons in the coming generations. Our tradition of familial marriages makes sense to extend to the Velaryons in that case as we both share Valerion blood and need to reinforce a Dragon monopoly for the crown.
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- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
...well. I guess I'm playing devil's advocate for Jae now.
What choices would that be? The Dance of the Dragons did not come due to his actions. Aerea and Rhaenys would both have had the better claims to the throne even under Andal law, but Rhaenyra does not. Her claim comes from the fact that Targaryens aren't Andal, and that there are no codified succession rules for the Iron Throne, and thus the king can decree his heir. Thus, it wasn't like Jaehaerys set a precedent there. Even Aerea or Rhaenys getting onto the throne would have not avoided a war if a situation like Rhaenyra's had come about, because her claim is weaker under Andal law than theirs was. As it was, the Dance was entirely a war within Viserys' family line anyway.
On a political level, Jaehaerys' success is hard to overstate. The population of the 7K doubled during his reign, simply because the realm became so much more prosperous and peaceful. It is on the personal level that things get spicier, though even there... it is such an odd contrast at times.
Because you can't say he was just sexist. He was perfectly happy with letting his daughters choose a husband, as long as it was a lord/heir. That is not that usual in Westeros. But on the other hand, he forced Daella to marry at all, despite her obvious mental handicaps and being unsuited for it. Having a 'dimwitted' unmarried aunt around at your seat would also not have been unusual in Westeros, yet force her he did because he thought otherwise she would have no value, which is a pretty shocking thing to say.
And I daresay most lords in Westeros would have reacted similar to the Saera episode. In fact, he even had allowed her great freedoms in meeting with her boys, naively trusting in the supposed omnipresence of servants. If the account in Fire and Blood is correct, he had been willing at first to let the matter slide, but Saera's two escape attempts (fully justified as they were on her side) escalated the matter, whereas other lords might have sent their daughter to the Silent Sisters forthwith. On the other hand, his later statements on Saera were still shocking, and forbidding Alysanne any contact with her was excessively controlling.
Though then again, a lot of that is in fact Alysanne's fault. With Viserra and Gael, their cases are mostly on her, and well, she had a dragon. She wouldn't have needed leave to visit Saera. But back on the original hand that is addressed in Fire and Blood, where Jaehaerys argued Saera would have rather received Alysanne with a slap to the face than a hug. Which is not entirely incorrect... but if Alysanne was so adamant about trying reconciliation, she could have done it. Instead, even with a dragon, she bowed to her husband.
So I think Jaehaerys was sexist, both towards his wife and his daughters, but not in a stereotypical onedimensional way one might expect. And Alysanne, for all she did with the women courts and her laws, has some blame to shoulder for that as well. In fact, I almost dislike her role more than his: She talks a big deal about how Daenerys should inherit, then talks a big deal about reconciliation with Saera, but ultimately, she always meekly follows what Jaehaerys says. All their reconciliations after their big Quarrels (captal q) were her accepting what he had done.
And really, I think the main problem was that their family just got too big, so all the younger children felt unloved to a degree and needed more attention. I mean, that's basically outright stated for Saera in F&B. And it's not like the younger boys turned out all that 'normal', either... well, okay that's just Vaegon, but still, that boy was odd in his own ways.
Well, it wasn't him who put himself on the throne. He was a boy when it happened, and Aerea in Maegor's control. Jaehaerys, Alysanne and their mother Alyssa had managed to flee to Storm's End, so that made him the default candidate for the anti-King standing against Maegor. But that was mostly Regnar Baratheon's and Alyssa's doing. And later on, Regnar did change his mind and wanted to enthrone Aerea, but Alyssa went against it. So I suppose what I am saying is, if there is someone to accuse of sexism in this, it is our great-great-grandmother. Though of course she had the stability of the realm and keeping her family together to consider, too.
What choices would that be? The Dance of the Dragons did not come due to his actions. Aerea and Rhaenys would both have had the better claims to the throne even under Andal law, but Rhaenyra does not. Her claim comes from the fact that Targaryens aren't Andal, and that there are no codified succession rules for the Iron Throne, and thus the king can decree his heir. Thus, it wasn't like Jaehaerys set a precedent there. Even Aerea or Rhaenys getting onto the throne would have not avoided a war if a situation like Rhaenyra's had come about, because her claim is weaker under Andal law than theirs was. As it was, the Dance was entirely a war within Viserys' family line anyway.
On a political level, Jaehaerys' success is hard to overstate. The population of the 7K doubled during his reign, simply because the realm became so much more prosperous and peaceful. It is on the personal level that things get spicier, though even there... it is such an odd contrast at times.
Because you can't say he was just sexist. He was perfectly happy with letting his daughters choose a husband, as long as it was a lord/heir. That is not that usual in Westeros. But on the other hand, he forced Daella to marry at all, despite her obvious mental handicaps and being unsuited for it. Having a 'dimwitted' unmarried aunt around at your seat would also not have been unusual in Westeros, yet force her he did because he thought otherwise she would have no value, which is a pretty shocking thing to say.
And I daresay most lords in Westeros would have reacted similar to the Saera episode. In fact, he even had allowed her great freedoms in meeting with her boys, naively trusting in the supposed omnipresence of servants. If the account in Fire and Blood is correct, he had been willing at first to let the matter slide, but Saera's two escape attempts (fully justified as they were on her side) escalated the matter, whereas other lords might have sent their daughter to the Silent Sisters forthwith. On the other hand, his later statements on Saera were still shocking, and forbidding Alysanne any contact with her was excessively controlling.
Though then again, a lot of that is in fact Alysanne's fault. With Viserra and Gael, their cases are mostly on her, and well, she had a dragon. She wouldn't have needed leave to visit Saera. But back on the original hand that is addressed in Fire and Blood, where Jaehaerys argued Saera would have rather received Alysanne with a slap to the face than a hug. Which is not entirely incorrect... but if Alysanne was so adamant about trying reconciliation, she could have done it. Instead, even with a dragon, she bowed to her husband.
So I think Jaehaerys was sexist, both towards his wife and his daughters, but not in a stereotypical onedimensional way one might expect. And Alysanne, for all she did with the women courts and her laws, has some blame to shoulder for that as well. In fact, I almost dislike her role more than his: She talks a big deal about how Daenerys should inherit, then talks a big deal about reconciliation with Saera, but ultimately, she always meekly follows what Jaehaerys says. All their reconciliations after their big Quarrels (captal q) were her accepting what he had done.
And really, I think the main problem was that their family just got too big, so all the younger children felt unloved to a degree and needed more attention. I mean, that's basically outright stated for Saera in F&B. And it's not like the younger boys turned out all that 'normal', either... well, okay that's just Vaegon, but still, that boy was odd in his own ways.
[X] Write-in: Challenge Qoren to a non-lethal duel (you armed with your harp, him with his brush) atop Syrax while the dragon is flying above the city, with Alicent spectating your duel in mid-air on the back of a hawk
Imperious
Without the sun of my life
When it comes to Jaehaerys there's no real question that he was a deeply sexist man by the standards of 21st century liberal societies. Whether he was exceptionally sexist for the society he lived in is a more open question. In that regard his actions are somewhat mixed. On one hand his legal reforms included changes demanded by Alyssane such as the Widows' Law and the banning of the tradition of First Night. On the other hand when it came to the succession he actually imposed an even more sexist standard than what was practiced in Westeros by putting Aemon's brother before his daughter as his heir when Aemon died.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think not at least considering love in the marriage is quitter talk, we're a Targaryen we deserve to be loved by more than a single person and we can love more than one person.
I get not wanting to harm Alicent, but if we can have a marriage that also involves love and have her that is just even better. We are a romantic not necessarily a monogamist.
Don't get me wrong, i agree with all your points. Its without question that Jaehaerys was the best King Westeros ever had, with only Aegon the Unlikely coming close.
His greatest mistakes were in his personal life, his relathionship with his children and wife, and the matter of his succession.
Wich is what i wanted to point out.
Yes, the Dance was a war within Viserys line. But it was indirectly caused by Jaehaerys choices and the Great Council.
Jaehaerys bad relathionship with his descendants is what created ultimately the causes of the Dance.
His responsability is of course minimal compared to that of people actualy alive shortly before and during the Dance. But he still has some responsability for what happened.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
I still do not see how. As I have said, Jaehaerys created bad blood between Aemon's and Baelon's lines, but the Dance happened all within Baelon's line. And Rhaenyra's succession would have been contested even with different precedents, because she should not inherit according to Andal Law, while Aerea and Rhaenys should have. So even with different precedents, well, people would have argued then that those were according to the law, and Rhaenyra is a different case.
I really just don't see the causal chain there.
That if Rhaenys inherited there would have been no Dance because Viserys wouldn't have been King, and his side of the family would have been less messed up.
He didn't HAVE to call a Great Council, especialy because this was the first Great Council that set the precedent for all the others.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
There's a few arguements. The first is that by holding the great council, Jaehaerys gave the lords of Westeros the impression that Sucession for the Iron Throne was a matter where their opinion played a role. Thus giving the Hightowers the boldness to go "No Viserys is wrong, Aegon is heir". Second, well fundmentally if he had never made Baelon heir instead of Rhaenys, there would have never been a dance because Baelon would never attack his brother's child, Viserys doesn't have the temperment to wage war and as a second son, Daemon's claim would be quite weak.
Also if like the Council had never given people the idea that women don't inherit ever, Viserys might not have felt the need to do anything special with sucession, since Daemon wouldn't have been heir. And if Rhaenyra was just nominally heir instead of someone he specifically went out of the way to ceremonially make heir, he might have been okay with just deciding Aegon was his heir when he was born.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's kind of funny how much Rhaenys projects. Sure she has points but you can just see how much she's pushing her situation from the Great Council on other women in power close to the Iron Throne.
I think it's funny people just relying on Johanna eventually giving Viserys a son like it's a prophecy type of thing. Like child death is high and for all you know Johanna could just keep giving birth to daughters.
- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
The platonic ideal of a write-in, this.
"[J] Do everything
"-[J] Perfectly
"-[J] Remember to breathe"
- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
What if she already has, and it's Aelora? We don't know.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Well, that at least would make no difference in inheritance laws in Westeros, and are we truly concerned about more than that?
Aelora, or whatever name they?? choose in the future, need to invent HRT, transition, and change their record in closest court of law first to strengthen their claim as we know the lords are clearly transmedicalist.
- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Nah, nowhere in Planetos except maybe Yi Ti has enough state capacity to make anyone go to all that trouble. Just hop a dragon over the Narrow Sea and call yourself what you like, who's gonna question you?Aelora, or whatever name they?? choose in the future, need to invent HRT, transition, and change their record in closest court of law first to strengthen their claim as we know the lords are clearly transmedicalist.
Somic
It's meow or never
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Teen Spirit has said before that Johanna's childbirth mostly runs on narrativium rather than pure dice rolls (although dice are still involved). She could, in theory, just keep giving birth to daughters, or outright die in childbirth, but I really don't think that it would actually happen. This quest is about overcoming challenge, after all.
- Location
- Who knows?
I mean what grandchildren? What children? It's really really difficult to make betrothals between entities that literally do not exist yet. Hell Corlys thought having an engagement between two breathing, talking human beings was too uncertain for him. I'd say this isn't CK2 where you can just ake plans decades into the future with no issue, but i'm pretty sure even Crusader Kings makes you have the children in front of you for you to offer marriage deals.
Daemon is actually relevant here since Laenor is unlikely to make kids even if Rhaenyra doesnt marry him and currently its still highly likely for Corlys to toss his daughter at him. Then he really has like zero reason to do hypotheticals versus pushing Daemon's claims aside from his wife's reluctance to fight, which is really kinda flimsy.
Also will try to tldr since not general thread but I will slag on Jaehaerys all day every day. Before Blood and Fire came out you could fill in the blanks yourself that he was a clever diplomatic, intelligent king. Once it did the reveal is that Doctrine of Exceptionalism wasn't some feat of masterful diplomacy but him going "nuh uh," and everyone being too tired i guess to complain, his biggest rival/obstacle got blighted with eldritch face worms without him having to lift a finger (to really push the Gary Stu stench to everything) and he + Alysanne apparently have zero idea how the whole "marriage alliance" thing is supposed to work.
I mean yeah sure Meta says the family tree needs to be pruned but how do you marry off all your daughters to old geezers _who already have full grown sons so any children wont get jack shit_. I would argue in universe these would be considered shitty marriages and thus shitty parenting since the one and only responsibility a patriarch has is arranging meaningful marriages for his daughters. (so yes even Hoster is doing better. somehow) Like even Robert wasn't so bad at politics/uncaring as to betroth Myrcella to Walder Frey, but not Jae and Aly somehow managed to find multiple Walders to marry their kids off too.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I should mention I did change that to a big extent, still a bit of narrativium, because Azel convinced me the dice rolls would be better.
Which paid off in some interesting ways with Helaena.
Yeah but the characters in quest don't know that do they?