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Why are people so hard on for keeping the Demon? At this point just throw the fucker, its proving way too much of an issue once more.

[X] Denva Secundus
Because we can't kill it in a way that sticks and releasing it would both lose us a research subject and set it free into the immaterium.
Daemonology should secure Bongo's scrying and telepathy by itself, because once bound Bongo will be compelled to obey us. Obvious hazards abound, and we should obtain psychic encryption soonish for the anti-scry protections in general, but with a good success on daemonology the matter will likely be settled.
I think people want the encryption first because they're worried Bongo (who can scry us) might mess that research up.
If it was just that I wouldn't care, but its clearly talking to enemy forces and seems to have been. Well that is a whole other matter, because research we have gotten out of it has been useful. But we are past the point of needing it to keep going.
So we bind it or find a way to destroy it. Tossing the scrapcode generator into the sun or detroying it in research doesn't kill Bongo. Not in a way that sticks.
Bongo could have told them everything it learned, full sensory experience, we do not know what daemon to daemon bandwidth looks like. That said the point about it still being a lot safer to learn demonology with him than without him stands and keeping daemons out and maybe summoning saints with a bit of luck just became more important because of that.
Ten times yes. Plus, given all the cultists now in the system, we may need knowledge of banishment soon.
It's very expensive in opportunity costs. That's the price. Get cramming but don't get warp comms is a tradeoff I don't want to make.

It's a hope that it will stop bongo from taking to others, but we didn't know he could do that and don't actually know what will stop him. This is a gamble.

If the whole point of demonology is to safely ditch bongo then we'll have spent an action and a half on ease of mind without further benefits.

Sure, but he was communicating freely with chaos forces in this system. Anthing you are worried about it sharing it already has, anything he didn't share he he probably would not share in the warp either.

I don't think it's a big enough risk to matter.

Ok...? And you want this instead of sensors that would identify chaos cultists? Because those are in direct condition with eachother for RP.

We've got cog filters. We've got psychic shields. We've got sensors that can spot rituals.

We don't need better options against chaos, we've spent a lot of time and effort building our current options. We need more ability to fight.

I don't see any reason to think it would have stopped it talking. Psychic encryption is to prevent others from scrying on us or predicting our actions; on the face of it that's not going to stop demons taking through the warp except by accident.

We've got cog-filters and nested psychic shields. And plasma weaponry. Just because I don't want to handle them the way you want to handle them doesn't mean i want to avoid them.

We spent a ton on the stuff we've already got. Now can we try to be as protected against more common threats, like boarding?

I don't want to research the subject. I don't want to summon demons safely; I don't want to summon demons at all. The subject can be addressed by developing complex wards and intricate rituals, or we can just throw melta charges at it and not get tied up believing we have to play by their rules.

No.

Nah. It's a free action to cock him in the sun, for no more risk than we are already at with the dead chaos Marine.

Or destructive analysis, if you want to squeeze that last bit out.

No, it isn't. It means that our warp research goes among non-demonic paths. Like immaterium understanding, or psytech, or warp comms. Demons are a distraction from those, not a support.

Too late. Bongo talked to the chaos marines and the chaos marines died. The horse has already left, no point in building elaborate locks for the barn door now.
Cramming also makes combat ships better—a smaller chassis is faster. It also helps with placing buildings in our capital ship—something with which we've had a very hard time lately.

The point of demomology is partly to kill or bind Bongo safely, yes. Also knowledge on how to banish, hurt, and suppress other demons.

We don't know how much Bongo shared, we don't know how far that information got, and we don't know how good the fidelity of the transmission was. What we do know is it can still watch and transmit. Encryption would keep it from learning anything new about us, make it harder for it to attack, and prevent it from messing up Demonology research.

We do want other things—rebuilding and upgrading our bots, getting better at sniffing out cults, navibean research—and needing to prioritise means Demonology might have to wait a turn or two. But we'll need to do it. Because there is no credible alternative. Releasing Bongo into the Immaterium and not arming ourselves with the means to fight it and other demons whe there is a demon world in the sector is not a good idea.

Also: demons and saints live in the warp. Studying a place involves studying its ecosystem. Those researches synergise.
 
Cramming also makes combat ships better—a smaller chassis is faster. It also helps with placing buildings in our capital ship—something with which we've had a very hard time lately.
A small chassis is faster than a bigger one, but two slightly worse small chassis are the same speed, more flexibility, and more total capability than one better one. Of course, 2:1 is an unfair ratio to apply, they'd certainly cost more BP. But the point that the approach to less cramming is more ships, not bigger ships, stands.

(If you get to very high cramming, the savings from spending less on per-hull costs starts to add up in a significant way, but that's more than a little research.)
 
It's unlikely we will be able to fully clear out chaos during this combat turn, gotta have at least one command action for further cleaning them out.
Most certainly. I would recommend handing control of our ground forces next turn to W or a commander. They would have better success with our forces under their indirect control. That should provide a bonus to the action. @Neablis please confirm.
 
A small chassis is faster than a bigger one, but two slightly worse small chassis are the same speed, more flexibility, and more total capability than one better one. Of course, 2:1 is an unfair ratio to apply, they'd certainly cost more BP. But the point that the approach to less cramming is more ships, not bigger ships, stands.

(If you get to very high cramming, the savings from spending less on per-hull costs starts to add up in a significant way, but that's more than a little research.)
Consider that also a bunch of things (especially stealth) depend on hull cost, so savings are doubled; additionally, some weapons and equipment simply don't fit in a smaller hull. Lastly, more hull cost means more repair costs overall. And that's before we get into cramming with the Spark.
 
Regardless of the end of this combat there's a lot of clean up and hardening of denva that should be made, as well as helping W to set up something of a security buerau (Man in black style) to keep a lid on chaos influence. Maybe 5 turn if we don't get distracted we can get everything done. Wich key priorites are get humans able to rut out chaos and have a military build up, so: demonology, emphaty at range, some desing action to have chaos sensors mounted on airships, the OMC improvements and likely the void industry research, also possibly getting the final tech on the human OMC reserch projects to allow Denva to research stuff faster.
 
[X] Klyssar's Nest
-[X] But first, do at least a few orbits around Secundus and orbitally bombard enemy strongpoints on our way out.
-[X] While doing so, pick up any friendly assets Secundus can spare on short notice that might be useful when liberating Klyssar's Nest.

Primus doesn't seem strategically important right now, and Secundus should be able to liberate itself. The enemy ships in Aetherion are still years away from completion, a few days or weeks delay won't change the situation.

Klyssar's Nest is were our presence or absence will make all the difference. So that's were we should go. We're a little short on infantry, but luckily were right next to a friendly planetary defense force / resistance movement that should probably be able to spare at least a few thousand soldiers without really noticing their absence.
 
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[X] Aetherion

We'll likely need at least 1 construction action to replenish our forces + 1 command to take Klyssars nest, maybe one more for either primus/secundus. Right now it mentioned their ships likely won't be ready for a year which means they might have time to launch during the main turn if we don't prioritize em.
 
Consider that also a bunch of things (especially stealth) depend on hull cost, so savings are doubled; additionally, some weapons and equipment simply don't fit in a smaller hull. Lastly, more hull cost means more repair costs overall. And that's before we get into cramming with the Spark.
Savings are only doubled if you're spending a lot on non-cramming scaling costs. If you're going Stealth Everything, yeah, that does add up and increase the benefit of cramming. I would not go Stealth Everything, or at least I'd seriously consider not, if the worry is about being outgunned.

It's true that some things don't fit in a smaller hull, but are you planning to put a heavy plasma battery in a destroyer? TBF, putting Large Torpedoes in a destroyer is a thing we might want. Or Superb Sensors in a destroyer, but that's rather ambitious.

I'm not sure it's true that more hull cost means more repair costs. More hulls means more shield generators to share the load, if they can manage it. But if it does...repair is quite cheap.

No contest, cramming the Spark (or later flagships) better is nice. But again, if we're talking about building a fleet one of the first things to do is get ships that can handle front-line fighting better than the Spark while being more expendable.
 
Random coffee break thought for next turn research I wonder if instead of Taste of Chaos:

The Taste of Chaos (300 RP) When investigating the stations in Vorthryn, you found a flavor to the warp signatures hanging around the chaos-corrupted stations. If you do more analysis on it, you might be able to discern some filters that can tell you when a signature is chaos-associated or identify active Chaos-cults through sensors alone (Makes your warp sensors more sensitive to Chaos-associated markers. More useful in detecting cults than individuals, though may unlock further research to screen for cultists who have participated in warp-rituals).

We instead get:

-[] Empathy at Range (200 RP) Your warp sensors work well on things that are nearby, but they're definitely not able to detect anything large beyond combat range, or smaller things beyond very close range. Maybe it's a matter of improving sensitivity, maybe you need to specifically build some parts of your psychic shield to extend range. (Makes your warp sensors active at longer range, unlocks further research to pinpoint psychic activities from across the solar system. Half of the prereq for basic warp-based FTL communication)

-[] A Curio Cabinet of Cultists (100 RP) You have a haul of items and bodies from the Chaos cult aboard the Auric Burden, and the ones who tried to board The Spark of the Ancients in Denva. Investigate them, and see what you can learn. (Improved knowledge about Chaos Cults. May lead to enhanced detection of Chaos cults & cultists. May lead to some understanding of how to use warp rituals to enhance items. May unlock further research once you have more samples.)

Curio cabinet is only has a chance of improving our detection rate of cultists, but might allow for more mundane detection. Coupled with improved warp sensors it could end up with the same level of cult detection. It also gets us a step closer to warp comms.
 
Curio should come before Taste simply based on the likelihood of a cost reduction. Cultists who went to ground won't be found by Taste, they have to actually be doing something with the Warp. That, and this level of the tech is for detecting groups, not individuals.

Curio will help us track the cultists in a mundane way, far more practical.
 
Taste might be significantly more useful when Vita's off on her own, but Curio Cabinet might be more useful for Denva managing chaos residuals. If it 'leads to' those results immediately rather than in a follow-on research anyway.
 
Because we can't kill it in a way that sticks and releasing it would both lose us a research subject and set it free into the immaterium
I think it's pretty funny - and to be clear, I'm not saying it's wrong per say - that this thread has basically mirrored the eisenhorn books, going from "we need to banish the demon" to "we have to keep it bound so it can't escape".
 
@Neablis, just to make clear, is the fluff a warning against doing it right now and expecting to pull it off perfectly, or is it more a warning against trying to do it 'on the side' while focusing on something else?
It's not a warning against not doing it. It's calling out that it's probably the trickiest of the options, which means that it will be risky to do now, but if you leave it alone it'll also take the most effort to tackle properly and non-risky. If you want to do it without a fair amount of planning and preparation, now's the time.

We should dismantle Bongo or otherwise settle them in a definitive and absolute manner before we fight another Chaos ship of any stripe again. We handled this well, but it could have gone much worse. Certainly we won't like other ships having intel from the inside on us.

(Also more importantly we've basically extracted all the low and mid hanging fruit from Bongo.)
You know. There's a solution for this. Looks at psychic encryption.

It's highly unlikely this was a Slaughter-Class. Those have merged weapon batteries of both lances and macrocannons and its speed would have been noteworthy. As is we know this had a Hangar Bay and Lances, so the most likely culprits is a Devastation-class cruiser. Keep in the mind the Slaughter-class isn't exactly common and among the rarest of Chaos Cruisers, so don't expect we'll see any unless we have actual intel on it.
It was a Styx-class.

I feel this deeply, well done :)
Yeah it was very satisfying to write.

As for the vote. It might be cold, but the industry is more important than the people on the station. Both in terms of preservation and preventing the enemy from using. That much BP could churn out problems quick if we let it, and we know Chaos has figured out a perverted version of OMC.
They basically just took Denvan OMC operators, mutated and servitorized them, then stuck them in as the control module.

On the flipside: There were only six (twelve, if you count the half that was gunned down in surprise) of them and it merely cost us a hundred and change bots to put them down. By this setting's standards, that's a terrific exchange rate where basic infantry versus Astartes is concerned.
Closer to 200 I think. Your bots were chaff, but at least they were chaff equipped with weapons that could actually hurt them. I don't think they were counting on every single one of your troops being armed with weapons that posed a threat to them.

[X] Notify W that we're going to try and ensure the Chaos worshippers don't get to rush the warships currently being built into service. With any luck, we'll retake the manufactories intact enough to provide more relevant numbers for other ground campaigns going forward.
[X] Aetherion

Would this be preferable? I understand your point, but I'd rather not have this become any more of a protracted war than it already is.
No write-ins. Just the listed options. Don't worry about Denvan negative publicity too much here. You already saved the planet, now you're helping clear the system.

I am concerned about them managing to get a ship ready.
As long as you move on Aetherion next turn you'll be able to prevent that.

I am curious if ships build at Aetherion are warp capable. If not then let them finish if yes then we better stop them.
They look like they're built to be warp-capable.

They would be jumping without a navigator and without an abacus, we would find it trivial to chase them down, assuming they'd actually survive the jump. Most likely such an attempt would just lead to feeding themselves to daemons... which some might consider an act of faith but wouldn't be much of a concern to us.
You aren't certain there aren't more sorcerers in the system, or at least apprentices. If they were building ships it would have made sense for them to be building warp-jump capability.

Our OMC operators can do 1 build action per turn i assume the is also the case for chaos OMC.
Also, you're above 1 action/turn with this tech:
-[] Human Virtual OMC simulations (150 RP) Simulation of the organic-machine control interfaces is tricky, but it has some pretty significant benefits. Not only will it make it far easier to train people on how to use the OMC technology, it'll let people virtually fight each other to discover new strategies. Besides, that might be fun. (Dramatically improved OMC competence. This may result in an increase in manufacturing efficiency for OMC-controlled manufactories, and will result in increased effectiveness of OMC-controlled military units.). Critical Success.
All Organic-machine control happens at a higher level of competency, increasing the productivity of manufactories entirely controlled by OMC-equipped personnel, and increasing the combat capabilities of OMC-controlled combat units.
Somewhere around 1.3 or so. I'm not going to give you hard numbers because I don't want you calculating out exactly how many BP a friendly polity should have, but it was a significant improvement.

... You know what. I think that we should defer to someone who knows the local conditions better than we do - W. So, if a write in is possible:

[X] Ask W for which area she thinks we should deal with first

Edit: @Neablis is this legal?
She'd probably tell you to go to Aetherion, but that's because she's a cold-hearted strategist who plans for the long term, and she hasn't really dealt with Chaos on a large scale as much as you have. But this is your decision because you're the one in the hot seat.

@Neablis Can we send some macro cannon projectiles at the shipyards to do some damage and slow them down while we do other shit?
Shipyards are static so just send them on pre calculated ballistic arc should work.
There's too much uncertainty in the firing trajectories, when you fire there's an error cone. At medium-ish range it's not too much, but over longer ranges it's the primary problem with macrocannons hitting things. That and the slow-ish speed.

Say, a question. I'm kind of feeling inspired to wirte some omake from the viewpoint of one of the non-space marines marines that ended up surrendering. But would crew on one of those big Chaos ships most likely be someone who was once an Imperial Marine and turned coat, just a descendant of a long line of people serving on that ship?
Most likely a long line of people serving. They also press-ganged people from Denva itself. This:
They were pulling people off Denva, they could even be a native Denvan. I do not think they would be imperials since the IoM hasn't been in this neck of the woods for something like three hundred years now so I think the options are:
  1. Denvan Janissary
  2. Hereditary crew of the Echo of Apotheosis

I'm hoping psychic encryption would jam Bongo's communications but it's also possible demonology would just let us either bind and command him to shut the hell up, or go a step further and bind him helplessly into a titanium cube or something.
Both options. Depends a bit on research rolls.

I do hope this is a wake-up call to build a proper military and not just a laughably small amount of infantry with no tanks or anything. Oh, and a brig. We can only save one, because we have nothing.
You've got a brig. It's even psychically shielded. A dozen cells already contain necrons, but there's a lot of room for surrendered cultists.
1x Captive Holding cells 32/500 (50 HP)
But you've got a point about the Taste of Chaos. That'd unlock the ability to drop an assault shuttle or orbital bombardment on any Chaos ritual as soon as it spins up.

It's unlikely we will be able to fully clear out chaos during this combat turn, gotta have at least one command action for further cleaning them out.
There will probably be a Denva roll to catch the cultists. And each of Aetherion & Klyssar's nest probably requires their own actions to recapture.

Hey @Neablis , would Psy Encryption have prevented Bongo from contacting the warband?
Most likely. It's kind of adjusts your psychic shields to also drown out using the warp to send information in.

Most certainly. I would recommend handing control of our ground forces next turn to W or a commander. They would have better success with our forces under their indirect control. That should provide a bonus to the action. @Neablis please confirm.
Depends on what you intend. Giving it to them permanently? Then you're boosting whatever they're doing, and certainly provide them a bonus to their action. But if you run your combat bots in parallel to what they're doing then you get two rolls, one for you and one for them. This isn't a "simple trick" to get a bonus to an action.

Random coffee break thought for next turn research I wonder if instead of Taste of Chaos:



We instead get:



Curio cabinet is only has a chance of improving our detection rate of cultists, but might allow for more mundane detection. Coupled with improved warp sensors it could end up with the same level of cult detection. It also gets us a step closer to warp comms.
They all stack. Curio cabinit probably is more about mundane detection, though it would likely discount Taste of Chaos, potentially dramatically. At-range is more about you being able to detect chaos rituals spinning up in Klyssar's station or Aetherion from Denva orbit.
 
It remains the pinnacle of frustrating how Chaos doesn't need to do Research, they just need to do atrocities and the benefits rain down on them anyway.
 
Literal magic powers do be like that. We've got a research path that leads that way through Curio, to make things like the shitty swords that can cut through power armor because they've got a thousand times more Real in them than actually real things.
 
So, just to collect these for pointing out that yes. Psychic Encryption is actually helpful for containing Bongo, on top of the primary use it has as an anti-divination method.
We should dismantle Bongo or otherwise settle them in a definitive and absolute manner before we fight another Chaos ship of any stripe again. We handled this well, but it could have gone much worse. Certainly we won't like other ships having intel from the inside on us.

(Also more importantly we've basically extracted all the low and mid hanging fruit from Bongo.)
You know. There's a solution for this. Looks at psychic encryption.
I'm hoping psychic encryption would jam Bongo's communications but it's also possible demonology would just let us either bind and command him to shut the hell up, or go a step further and bind him helplessly into a titanium cube or something.
Both options. Depends a bit on research rolls.
Hey @Neablis , would Psy Encryption have prevented Bongo from contacting the warband?
Most likely. It's kind of adjusts your psychic shields to also drown out using the warp to send information in.
Seriously, it was a Nat 100 bonus tech IIRC. Even if it didn't have the communication blocking effect, psychic-based anti-divination alone would be worth it. And I think we should research immediately on the next turn. No pushing it back in favor of anything else that might seem more immediately useful, just get it out of the way.
 
It remains the pinnacle of frustrating how Chaos doesn't need to do Research, they just need to do atrocities and the benefits rain down on them anyway.
I think it's worth noting that they haven't actually figured out OMC, they're just using existing OMC operators as a black box to run the factories.

Which, you know, is actually decently clever? I'll tell you what didn't happen that I was expecting: The boarders had no jammer 'nades, even though it should have been easy to capture at least enough to arm the space marines.

Something fishy is going on with that, and my paranoia suggests that it's that Bongo told them we're an AI who could assume direct control to mitigate the things.

Seriously, it was a Nat 100 bonus tech IIRC. Even if it didn't have the communication blocking effect, psychic-based anti-divination alone would be worth it. And I think we should research immediately on the next turn. No pushing it back in favor of anything else that might seem more immediately useful, just get it out of the way.
Lol, yup. I just didn't see the point in arguing when we could ask the QM and expect a straightforward, definitive answer. Which we got!

Thanks, @Neablis! But also, I have another question:
The shields are holding but that doesn't necessarily garuntee nothing got through.
Well first, you need to fix the typo on guarantee, but aside from that:

Do we know if anything got through or not by now? And whatever the answer, does Intelligence Coding double as a chaos/scrapcode infection check ala the scrapcode cleanse research we did for the factories back on Denva in the wake of Bongo's first breakout?

The fluff of the action is that it's Vita studying her own code, so it seems like it ought to give her a shot at noticing.
 
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[X] Aetherion

Because, bluntly, the faster we get manufacturing back up the faster we can flood the system with anti chaos shielding and warbots so this doesn't happen again.
 
@Neablis is there any possibility that the boarding craft that reached us can give a discount to Boarding Capabilities?

Also are these alight add-ons to the vote?

[] Aetherion
-[] Send W the info on how to build power armour, both kinds of personal shields and anything else that can help her fight the forces of Chaos.
-[] ask W if she has any channels/codes for talking to the Klyssar's Nest resistance.
 
They all stack. Curio cabinit probably is more about mundane detection, though it would likely discount Taste of Chaos, potentially dramatically. At-range is more about you being able to detect chaos rituals spinning up in Klyssar's station or Aetherion from Denva orbit.
Hm. Well, unless there's specialized equipment that ships need to refit for existing ships other than the spark to act as sensors, I think empathy at range is unnecessary for our current circumstances, then? We can just park ships near any stations to keep a scan going from close range.

Klysar, though... what does everyone think about getting Drugs, and studying the DEldar guns so we can make our own paralytic weapons to give out to Specter bots? Board from multiple places, then start clearing rooms like solid snake with nigh-silent guns without letting on what's happening.

I mean, I guess that might need small scale integrated psy shields or some shit so that their divination-based "instincts" don't give them away, but we probably want that for mass producing personal psy shields for Denva anyways.

Lots of really good choices we're split between, though...
@Neablis is there any possibility that the boarding craft that reached us can give a discount to Boarding Capabilities?
Personally my expectation is that the same "you learn more if you know what you're doing first" clause applies, meaning it would discount the followup techs even better if we researched boarding capabilities first. A stealth craft is more than just stealth technologies in a vacuum - it's a single thing that has to be good at things other than just being unseen.

Knowing the basics of what makes a good boarding craft seems like it should let Vita get a much deeper understanding of what tradeoffs this dark eldar boarding craft made between stealth and boarding capabilities and why.
 
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