- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Given Helaena in this Quest, Viserys probably had something to do with it
The Heir of the Dragon: A Rhaenyra Targaryen Quest
Wolfman217
Oh No! Oh No! Oh No!
- Location
- England
Given Helaena in this Quest, Viserys probably had something to do with it
I'd be okay with Viserys only having buff daughters.
Like that would be great if he's just a girl-dad who literally cannot have sons no matter how many kids he has or by any woman.
Temes1066
To Defy Gravity you must Let It Go
- Location
- Coleraine
Love of Otto will not motivate the Reachers either, which is what you were arguing. Additionaly a Dornish alliance will likely lead to more people siding with our opposition (which may come from the Westerling-Targs). In case you are forgetting, Daemon is not our only opponent.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Viserys only having daughters at this point (and Rhaenyra being much more proactive on a number of fronts) completely removed Viserys moments of doubt that he had in canon. With Alicent he had a son very quickly while Rhaenyra spent a long time sulking over things. Here he has three daughters and Rhaenyra is fustrating but generally takes her status seriously. So he's basically come to the conclusion that the dream was either not a dragon dream at all or he completely misunderstood it.
I should note that Aemma's history with pregnancies was bad and it had gotten to the point where she made Viserys promise that the pregnancy that ended up killing her would be the last one. Which to be clear he agreed to....I'm sincerely unsure whether he should be blaming himself here, without knowing if it was somehow obvious that Queen Aemma shouldn't bear more children. After all, death in childbirth happened at random quite a bit, especially when the obstetric care was being provided by, well, the kind of people who are now applying leeches to Viserys.
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- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Apropos of nothing, I am now imagining Viserys crying the town like Tevye the Milkman, "I have three daughters!"
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yes, but he's not wrong 100% of the time, so his opinion is still relevant.
I'm not just going to assume the Velaryons will 100% casually back a coup against the proclaimed heir in order to put one of Corlys' grandchildren on the throne. Especially since it is likely to mean either that the grandchild in question is a still very much a child, or that we will have had several years in which to consolidate our reign before the issue arises, because this notional grandson will need at least 2-3 years to be conceived and born and frankly I don't think Viserys is going to live more than about another 15 years as it is.
Let's not just auto-reject all evidence to the contrary and assume the Velaryons are the classic Scheming Mad Vizier Clan who will automatically fuel a civil war at any opportunity and for any pretext. At least not until we've actually put some effort into sounding out Rhaenys, because I'm pretty damn sure Rhaenys can act as a check on Corlys if she wants.
I'm pretty sure that if Corlys and Rhaenys don't move against us, Laena won't either.
This is NOT, however, the exclusive territory of a "mad imbecile." And we both remember you saying that.
Now, I understand that you walked that back.
But look, Randino, we've been acquainted for years, this isn't our first or even our tenth round. Please, please remember that exaggerated, hyperbolic language in describing the characters in the game, the certainty or lack thereof of certain outcomes in the game, and the merits or lack thereof of the positions of your fellow players, is a bad thing. It encourages you to back yourself into corners. It encourages you to overreact to relatively minor 'problems' that aren't necessarily even problems, things that may be a result of simple differences of opinion as to what is optimal. It occasionally even encourages you to overreact strongly in situations where you are simply mistaken, just plain straight up incorrect, about basic facts of the matter that are already available.
Please, please, dial it back a couple of notches, so we can avoid constant shit-flinging matches over every little thing, okay?
Okay, well, I asked you which ones before, and I'm asking you again.
Roughly what percentage of the Reach is this by weight, as it were?
It would certainly make Rhaenyra's life simpler.
Okay, yeah, I can absolutely see why he blames himself then, even if she didn't push him to promise that until then which for all I know she did which would just make it more blameworthy.
I can also see how a prophecy-guilt situation like that would influence his perception of making his daughter his heir.
In canon, from his point of view, he ruined his wife's health and eventually killed her trying for a son, then as soon as he remarried (after several years' mourning), BAM, he has a son, which leaves him feeling tragic and guilt-stricken but also validates that perception that his dream actually might have been prophetic, leaving his relationship with Rhaenyra's future status ambiguous.
Here, well, that hasn't happened yet and he's just told us that he's been forced to come to terms with the fact that maybe his 'prophetic vision' was just wrong or he misunderstood it.
- Pronouns
- Reader
Rhaenyra's mother. I thought baelor but apparently I'm mixing up maester's there. I'll concede that he's probably relatively competent, and that I overreacted.
Sure. I'm still going to push to have Mellos replaced, but I'll withhold descriptors and focus on the fact that his treatments aren't helping so far as we can tell and a seeking a second opinion would be particularly valid.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Rhaenyra's mother died of pregnancy complications after a long history of pregnancy complications, such as repeated miscarriages earlier in her life (which were before Mellos' time). Would you mind explaining exactly why you're so sure that Mellos' personal failures were to blame?
Well, that's fine. I've personally already staked out this exact position, for those exact reasons, as you can find by searching my posts in the thread for the word 'leeches.'
But this is one specific example of a general phenomenon. Let us all be wary of hyperbolic rhetoric and of taking plain and simple facts and exaggerating them into things that aren't true on their face and can only stoke controversy. "Partial" is not "total," "bad" is not "infinitely terrible," "suboptimal plan proposal" is not "clearly stupid or trying to sabotage the quest."
Dude. You're the one that claimed that marrying the Dornish prince would turn the entirety of the Reach and their 70k men against us. I never said a damn thing would motivate the entire Reach. Some might stay loyal due to their oaths, some might to stay loyal because they dislike Daemon, or they have a millenia of feuds with the westerlands or whatever the fuck. Hell *Aerys* had loyalists in virtually every kingdom, and he was the absolute worst, Westeros nobles are fractious and hate each other and very little unites them all even within the same kingdom.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
[X] Invite Prince Qoren Martell to King's Landing
Clearly we should do this, because even if you want another candidate, bringing in Qoren as an option is an excellent way to set of a bidding war, and those never have consquences or cause tensions or upsets or whatever.
Clearly we should do this, because even if you want another candidate, bringing in Qoren as an option is an excellent way to set of a bidding war, and those never have consquences or cause tensions or upsets or whatever.
prometheus110
Join Cayman-Global & be part of the 1E-9 percent!
- Location
- La Ballena City Raft
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Invite Prince Qoren Martell to King's Landing
[X] Invite Prince Qoren Martell to King's Landing
Temes1066
To Defy Gravity you must Let It Go
- Location
- Coleraine
You were one bring up how Otto hating Daemon would win us a lot of houses in the Reach.
There are quite a few houses in the Reach that hate Otto more, because they find him overbearing (three of his five vassals houses where againist him and many more throughout the Reach). Additionaly the vast majority of Reacher Houses (and Stormlanders) hate Dorne with a seething passion. Even Northern Reacher Houses like the Oakhearts hate the Dornish, it seems to be the one thing that would unite them.
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Three Houses in the Stormlands (two of whom defected to Robert), two in the Vale (both of which defected to Robert), the Reach, Three Minor Riverlanders and Two major Riverlanders.
[X] Invite Prince Qoren Martell to King's Landing
Now I'm in favour of marrying into the Martell's purely because it's so much more interesting gameplay wise, that being said
Not to be a doomteller or anything but if we don't marry into the hightowers isn't the romance with Alicent doomed long term? Wouldn't Otto marry her off long before we become queen with actual power to prevent that?
Now I'm in favour of marrying into the Martell's purely because it's so much more interesting gameplay wise, that being said
Not to be a doomteller or anything but if we don't marry into the hightowers isn't the romance with Alicent doomed long term? Wouldn't Otto marry her off long before we become queen with actual power to prevent that?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
There's ways of preventing that or marrying her and keeping her in court
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
1) She has an official position as the handmaiden of the Crown Princess at the moment. For now, she is off the marriage market. For Otto, having his daughter around near the Crown Princess is a win.
Of course, if he gets cross with us, then he might order his daughter away to be married off. However, that would be cutting into his own flesh (removing a potential influence on the Crown Princess), and as well...
2) We do have power. Just because we don't have the crown doesn't mean we have no power. We have the ear of the King, and if nothing else,well... we have a dragon. Like, so far we have always played very nice, but we have at least the potential to escalate the shit out of this situation.
However, that all being said - the Gwayne option would be the easiest one. And it would ensure our children are Targaryens, no questions asked and no silly compromises.
CharlieKing
Pure of Heart, Dumb of Ass
- Pronouns
- They/Them
my idea was if she married someone appointed to the small councel, maybe with lands close by? i acknowledge that we have very little hard influence on if she marries or who she marries, but this is rly the only other option i can think of besides a Gwayne marriage.
perhaps if we can get an eligible bachelor from a wealthy and prestigious family in Alicent's general age bracket (sadly, Otto's acceptable range for this is very large. for Alicent's sake we want in her age group.) appointed. bonus points if he's an heir, especially a lord paramount's heir.
this plan is on the level of a rube goldberg machine made of dominoes and playing cards. fun to think about tho 😆
Wolfman217
Oh No! Oh No! Oh No!
- Location
- England
Which is why we need to talk to her, get her onside in whatever capacity that ends up being, and then talk to him.
Corlys isn't an idiot by any stretch of the imagination but he's a extremely prideful man - he's a noble to begin with but then this is the guy who took a minor house to one of if not the flat out richest along with literally being one of two dragon riding families basically single-handedly.
If the play isn't there the play isn't there as long as the chance was given and he was acknowledged but nothing will get this man more riled up and willing to back someone with a chance against Rhae and Viserys then being fucking IGNORED.
From his perspective Rhae and Viserys stuck up their nose at Viserys marrying Leana and then have literally completely blanked him in the YEARS since. Yeah he was the one that stormed off and went sulky, WE know that, but to HIM he reacted reasonably to being turned down rudely and then has been flat out ignored since.
He's ambitious and arrogant but intelligent and clever - he can take a "fair" loss and setbacks at the table but when from his perspective he's not even offered a place?
Daemon can marry his daughter, is a strong warrior, is the second most powerful dragon rider (behind Corlys wife), is charismatic and cunning and is the brother of the King against the daughter AFTER they've just spent several years fighting together in the Stepstones.
By any consideration that has potential and when the other side have seemingly decided to ignore his existence suddenly it looks like a viable option.
Especially when the Baratheon head has a grudge against Rhae - between that and Rhaenys connection there's one Kingdom.
IIRC the Lannisters aren't a fan of Rhaeyra - promise them Deamon's heir to one of their daughters and there's another Kingdom (minus Joanna's family)
The Reach is the Reach so in any civil war any side can guarantee at least part of it (and even more of it if Dorne looks like it's going ahead)
Same with the Riverlands and definitely at least one of Bracken/Blackwood (probably Bracken)
Plus the obvious massive dragon imbalance
And that's just immediately obvious and low hanging fruit.
Yeah normally it wouldn't be enough to begin with for someone like Corlys to risk it all and take it on and see what/who else he can get onside but when he's got his back up and is pissy? When it's literally this or "nothing" (i.e. what he currently has) and to him he wasn't even given a chance?
Even WORSE if Dorne and then Strong and Otto are voted after.
Like talking to Dorne first - okay it's one of the "Kingdoms", he wouldn't like he's not first but he'd understand and it wouldn't really bother him.
But if Viserys and Rhae talks to House Strong before him? To OTTO before him? Being considered behind House Martell is one thing, but being behind a Riverlands vassal house and OTTO FUCKING HIGHTOWER? At which point he STILL doesn't know if he's (i.e. Leanor) is going to be considered and talked to at all?
Honestly at that point even if they were finally voted to talk to I wouldn't be surprised if he ignored it and didn't even consider it just from being thought of AFTER Strong and Otto.
Rhaenys and Corlys being talked to after Dorne is fine - I voted Rhaenys just because I'd PREFER it first - but if you guys vote Strong and/or Otto before them I'm going to start thinking you guys actively want a Dance against Deamon and Corlys.
Honestly that has to be bottom line hard requirement for ANY marriage option, not even something done for concessions, just "this is happening". It's absolutely wild to me GRRM wrote in canon that her strong children with Leanor were Velaryons - given how central Targs are and as literally the LAST Dragonlords of Old Valyria the fact Viserys agreed a patrilianial marriage is absolutely batshit insane.
Really makes me doubt that Viserys ever actually thought she'd end up Queen with allowing that.
And fuck, if they get uppity not only is just "well no then" an option but bring up the fact it wouldn't even be mentioned the other way around. Like if this was marrying their daughter to the Crown Prince they'd never consider the children having her name.
i.e. "You're marrying the heir to the Last Dragonlords of Valyria, why would you even think we'd let the crown pass out of the name? The heir being a daughter is irrelevant. The Blood of Old Valyria supersedes all"
Even ignoring my desire for equal inheritence - this should just be bog standard for all the major houses. Of COURSE the children of a female heir/ruler of one of these houses would have her name.
The Starks are 8000 years old - you REALLY telling me they've NEVER had a ruling Queen?
I'm pretty sure even with the Durrandons and Orys when Aegon originally offered Orys he would have ended up taking the Durrandon name and Argella would have eventually been the Lady Paramount with Orys as the consort.
It was only BECUASE they ignored it out right that after conquering them Aegon went "well fuck you then, your daughter is still going to marry Orys she's just going to be a Baratheon now and he's going to have the seat".
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UrbanAvena
Stair climber and vertical movement enthusiast
- Location
- In the stairwell and elevator shaft.
Actually about War I at least want to grill the Triarchy and
Bravoos have limited lumber and but able to make a great Navy. Imagine if they have plentiful, cheap, and quality lumber. We have a Kingdom that have a lot of lumber, closest to Bravoos, and need injection of economic activity to support the Night's Watch. The North. We will become the lumber capital of the world and any Free cities will tremble before the combined might of Bravoos and Seven Kingdom navies. Actually a threat of selling cheap lumber at bulk to Bravoos, The free city that have ideological reason to attack the other "Free" cities, may even be enough for Many free cities to think twice of crossing us.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Show wise the agreement was Jace in would become Targaryen when he took the throne
Toaster cult
I Am An Imaginary Living Body
- Location
- Tokyo
- Pronouns
- She/Her
honestly im voting martell simply because tat would be the most ifficult to arrange, Gwayne is the easiest by far which is why hes much lower, like negotitions wouldnt be that long for him www