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The plan is to stay in stealth while building up until we can 1-shot all the satellites, while creating and positioning assets inside the admechs so we can take over in the aftermath of that shock.

It seems like every other planner is either assuming we will burn the enclaves to the ground wholesale sacrificing any investments in them, or that we can fight a war with them that doesn't end with all of one side dead without doing the inside work.
Yet in either case, peace or annihilation? We need to be able to nullify the WMD arsenal of the AdMech. Because the planet being glassed is the price for failure, if such theoretical negotiations break down. And they are very likely to go nowhere for as long as AdMech holds the keys to the Sword of Damocles hanging over the planet. And to the nukes in their enclaves.
I know, which is why I'm planning on making A LOT of Fighters. With our Fighters able to kill 1-3 sats before they need to redeploy, we need at least 50 fighters handling that and at least 25 Fighters on the ICBMs. And the thing is, we don't necessarily even need the Spaceports for all the Fighters since as written it's so they can be rapidly re-armed and deployed, which in regards to the Killsats, I don't think any fighter will have the chance to re-arm b/c at that point the Killsats will either all be dead or will be firing.
This sounds both more likely to be noticed and lacking the sheer quick alpha-strike capability the missiles would have. And I want every single one of those satellites out of the game immediately at the start, if feasible.
 
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Can I make a suggestion? I think you should get rid of 2 Manufactories and make the Mag-Rail Concealed instead of Underground, b/c we're also going to need build the Shield Generator which is also going to be expensive and I quite honestly want to get ready rather soon and this would save us over 2k BP to use immediately at the cost of a mere 100 BP per turn when we're going to be dealing with the AdMech relatively shortly, and we're gonna need as much military power as we can get when things kick off.
I'm still on the fence as to whether I want the Maga-pult or not, but if we do get one then unless we plan on starting the attack in that same turn I think we need to go for Underground over Concealed. It's called out in the latest update that launch infrastructure is one of the mechanicus' top priorities to keep an eye out for.
You don't want to spend the resources necessary to fully shield them from view, but orbit-capable launch infastructure is something that the mechanicus monitors very carefully, so you dig hangers and launch tubes into the surrounding hills, disguising some of them with waste rock tailings.
 
The plans are preparing to win a war without actually starting one.

Once we take out the killsats, we can hold the admech at bay through conventional means.

My question is the same to both of you: And then what?

We get in a position to win a war without starting one. Yes, agreed, my plan builds towards that. Stealth fighters, manufacturing, and a void shield. Then what? How do you convert that to a long term resolution and not just a cold war?

Or we do take out the killsats and shoot down the ICBMs, and then we are locked in a cold war, with them likely taking potshots at our orbital infrastructure unless we kill them all. How do we avoid mass killings at that point?

Yet in either case, peace or annihilation? We need to be able to nullify the WMD arsenal of the AdMech.

Well, annihilation or annihilation, really.

If we want any of them to survive we need them to be friendly, and if we want them to be friendly we need to put in the work to subvert them.
 
My question is the same to both of you: And then what?

We get in a position to win a war without starting one. Yes, agreed, my plan builds towards that. Stealth fighters, manufacturing, and a void shield. Then what? How do you convert that to a long term resolution and not just a cold war?

Or we do take out the killsats and shoot down the ICBMs, and then we are locked in a cold war, with them likely taking potshots at our orbital infrastructure unless we kill them all. How do we avoid mass killings at that point?

Diplomacy, subversion, or hacking. We get the democratic nations on our side, we pursue diplomatic efforts and subversion while we research better hacking methods. Between the three, we should be able to force the admech to a resolution that doesn't require us to just kill them all. And if we absolutely have to, then ultimately, that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. Better the admech than anyone else on the planet, and we need them out of the way one way or another.
 
My question is the same to both of you: And then what?

We get in a position to win a war without starting one. Yes, agreed, my plan builds towards that. Stealth fighters, manufacturing, and a void shield. Then what? How do you convert that to a long term resolution and not just a cold war?

Or we do take out the killsats and shoot down the ICBMs, and then we are locked in a cold war, with them likely taking potshots at our orbital infrastructure unless we kill them all. How do we avoid mass killings at that point?
Subversion, hacking, and diplomacy, similar to you. I just object to being overt before we can shut down their attempt to use force to stop us if we're caught out too early for it to be a fait accompli.

The safety net is not ready this turn, so aggressive and overt action to change the mechanics's leadership - even just mid level leadership - is a non-starter.
 
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This sounds both more likely to be noticed and lacking the sheer quick alpha-strike capability the missiles would have. And I want every single one of those satellites out of the game immediately at the start, if feasible.
The plan is to have all those Fighters have basic Stealth while also trying to direct our Acolytes to cause a disruption and us trying to muddy sensors through hacking and after the first strike try to draw attention towards our launch point to direct their attention and therefore their missiles.
How do we avoid mass killings at that point?
I dunno how many times this has to be said, but this is 40k. Sometimes you just gotta shoot a bunch of fascist motherfuckers in the face and threaten the rest into submission. My ultimate intention for dealing with the Enclaves has always been to storm them with Heavy Infantry and shoot anyone that doesn't surrender.

Not only do I seriously doubt that we'd be able to astroturf an almost bloodless coup of a cruel fundamentalist cult that sees us in particular as Satan Incarnate, but it has been 10 turns (50 years) so far and I don't very much want to slow down our progression before we even have a ship b/c we're treating the fascists with kiddie gloves.
 
The plan is to have all those Fighters have basic Stealth while also trying to direct our Acolytes to cause a disruption and us trying to muddy sensors through hacking and after the first strike try to draw attention towards our launch point to direct their attention and therefore their missiles.

I dunno how many times this has to be said, but this is 40k. Sometimes you just gotta shoot a bunch of fascist motherfuckers in the face and threaten the rest into submission. My ultimate intention for dealing with the Enclaves has always been to storm them with Heavy Infantry and shoot anyone that doesn't surrender.

Not only do I seriously doubt that we'd be able to astroturf an almost bloodless coup of a cruel fundamentalist cult that sees us in particular as Satan Incarnate, but it has been 10 turns (50 years) so far and I don't very much want to slow down our progression before we even have a ship b/c we're treating the fascists with kiddie gloves.

Realistically yeah, most of the Ad Mech have to die, hopefully we can save a few more like Anexa, enough for a technical crew that can pass as tech priests in the wider galaxy, but it is worth keeping these are the people who make servitors. Even by the rock bottom standards of the IoM they are pretty far up there in the atrocity leagues lead only by the Ministorum and arguably the Administratum.
 
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I worry that all the focus on producing a military solution to the mechanicus will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more we prepare to fight and the less we prepare to do anything else, the more fighting will seem like the only option.
40k or no, I disagree that combat is the only solution. It might be an easy and straightforward one, but it's not the best.

Like, we have already made decent progress with starting a movement in the mechanicus, and we have barely spent any actions on it! If we were willing to sink some real effort into it we absolutely could change the mechanicus from the inside.
But that's only half the equation. Sure if we tried to just do that without anything else the leadership would stamp it out. So we also run a campaign of intrigue and sabotage (and maybe a little assassination) against them to prevent a coherent response.

It's easy to say "Oh they are all bad people (except for a few we like)" and write them all off. But most of them are probably just people, keeping their heads down and doing what they are told. We get the wind blowing in the direction we want, and the majority should follow.

Sure, some may still die. But far less then would happen in an outright war.
 
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I worry that all the focus on producing a military solution to the mechanics will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more we prepare to fight and the less we prepare to do anything else, the more fighting will seem like the only option.
40k or no, I disagree that combat is the only solution. It might be an easy and straightforward one, but it's not the best.

Like, we have already made decent progress with starting a movement in the mechanics, and we have barely spent any actions on it! If we were willing to sink some real effort into it we absolutely could change the mechanics from the inside.
But that's only half the equation. Sure if we tried to just do that without anything else the leadership would stamp it out. So we also run a campaign of intrigue and sabotage (and maybe a little assassination) against them to prevent a coherent response.

It's easy to say "Oh they are all bad people (except for a few we like)" and write them all off. But most of them are probably just people, keeping their heads down and doing what they are told. We get it blowing in the direction we want, and the majority should follow.

Sure, some may still die. But far less then would happen in an outright war.
Okay but have you considered a glassed nuclear wasteland if the AdMech gets spooked. This is not a potential conflict of equals. This is greedy, fundamentalistic, zealotic tech-monopolists having enough two types of WMDs to kill the planet over multiple times on a hair-trigger, ready to go at a moment's notice. Vita being an AI we can hide, but they will not tolerate technology and knowledge spreading.
 
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I worry that all the focus on producing a military solution to the mechanics will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more we prepare to fight and the less we prepare to do anything else, the more fighting will seem like the only option.
40k or no, I disagree that combat is the only solution. It might be an easy and straightforward one, but it's not the best.

Like, we have already made decent progress with starting a movement in the mechanics, and we have barely spent any actions on it! If we were willing to sink some real effort into it we absolutely could change the mechanics from the inside.
But that's only half the equation. Sure if we tried to just do that without anything else the leadership would stamp it out. So we also run a campaign of intrigue and sabotage (and maybe a little assassination) against them to prevent a coherent response.

It's easy to say "Oh they are all bad people (except for a few we like)" and write them all off. But most of them are probably just people, keeping their heads down and doing what they are told. We get it blowing in the direction we want, and the majority should follow.

Sure, some may still die. But far less then would happen in an outright war.

'Good' or 'bad' on an individual level does not enter into it, most* of them are fanatics to a level a modern person would have a hard time wrapping their minds around who require years of deprogramming to even begin to untangle themselves from the tenets of the cult and we happen to be the devil. I mean imagine one of those isolated cults that exploded into violence in the modern world like I don't know Wako, now imagine they have nukes and also the person trying to talk to them has horns, hooves and glowing eyes. This is what we are dealing with here and they are holding a planet of billions hostage.

*this is something a weasel word, for all meaningful purposes it's all, there's just the theoretical possibility the indoctrination didn't stick with someone so I added it in here so as not to be open to that counterargument
 
Okay but have you considered a glassed nuclear wasteland if the AdMech gets spooked. This is not a potential conflict of equals. This is greedy, fundamentalistic, zealotic tech-monopolists having enough two types of WMDs to kill the planet over multiple times on a hair-trigger, ready to go at a moment's notice. Vita being an AI we can hide, but they will not tolerate technology and knowledge spreading.
The planet that they happen to be on? Are these spherical extremists in a frictionless vacuum? Like, I don't doubt there are true zealots among them. But we have also seen how much more flawed and human they really are. We can make that work in our favor.

Not to say we don't have to worry about their reactions at all. But I expect there will be steps between "Entirely ignorant" and "Glass the whole planet". Especially if we keep the majority of the pressure internal and act with a modicum of subtlety.
My whole point is that we don't have to go to them fairly or deal with them plainly. We can scam them trick them and bamboozle them.

Like, look at things from their perspective. They glass the planet- and then what? Even if they don't die in the initial blast. without the planet's supply of resources and new recruits they are screwed regardless of where they are. Even the station requires regular re-supply.

'Good' or 'bad' on an individual level does not enter into it, most* of them are fanatics to a level a modern person would have a hard time wrapping their minds around who require years of deprogramming to even begin to untangle themselves from the tenets of the cult and we happen to be the devil. I mean imagine one of those isolated cults that exploded into violence in the modern world like I don't know Wako, now imagine they have nukes and also the person trying to talk to them has horns, hooves and glowing eyes. This is what we are dealing with here and they are holding a planet of billions hostage.

*this is something a weasel word, for all meaningful purposes it's all, there's just the theoretical possibility the indoctrination didn't stick with someone so I added it in here so as not to be open to that counterargument
Under what circumstances would they learn we are an AI/that devil?

We don't need to somehow deprogram Every single one into some facsimile of "good". We just need to make sure the ones who listen to us have enough momentum and primacy to make the others fall in line. Cults tend to encourage that sort of thinking don't they?

Isn't every turn years anyway?
 
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The planet that they happen to be on? Are these spherical extremists in a frictionless vacuum? Like, I don't doubt there are true zealots among them. But we have also seen how much more flawed and human they really are. We can make that work in our favor.

This is a member of the Death Corps of Krieg, they are a staple of the genre for a reason

The remarkable thing about them isn't that they blew up the world they were on, it's that some of them survived doing so to produce an endless tide of fanatics who think they will only be forgiven in death since after all it has to be better than the life they are presently living

Under what circumstances would they learn we are an AI?

We don't need to somehow deprogram Every single one into some facsimile of "good". We just need to make sure the ones who listen to us have enough momentum and primacy to make the others fall in line. Cults tend to encourage that sort of thinking don't they?

Isn't every turn years anyway?

Under the circumstances that we are going to tell one of the local spies that this turn. What you are describing has been done in the lore, mostly by the dark mech, it takes centuries because as the GM reminded us magi do not die of old age. Our subversive elements would have to either wait for the leadership to die from accident or mischance over centuries or assassinate them themselves.
 
This is a member of the Death Corps of Krieg, they are a staple of the genre for a reason

The remarkable thing about them isn't that they blew up the world they were on, it's that some of them survived doing so to produce an endless tide of fanatics who think they will only be forgiven in death since after all it has to be better than the life they are presently living



Under the circumstances that we are going to tell one of the local spies that this turn. What you are describing has been done in the lore, mostly by the dark mech, it takes centuries because as the GM reminded us magi do not die of old age. Our subversive elements would have to either wait for the leadership to die from accident or mischance over centuries or assassinate them themselves.
-and if we were dealing with them I might agree with you! But we aren't exactly dealing with the cream of the crop here. These are the embers and the dregs. This is almost as easy as it can get.

If it requires a few well-timed assassinations, so be it. It will be far less bloody then an outright war.

Talking it over with the local spy is good, but we kinda already know that their hope is not violence from the last time we talked, don't we?
 
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-and if we were dealing with them I might agree with you! But we aren't exactly dealing with the cream of the crop here. These are the embers and the dregs. This is almost as easy as it can get.

If it requires a few well-timed assassinations, so be it. It will be far less bloody then an outright war.

Talking it over with the local spy is good, but we kinda already know what their hope is don't we?

The people who became the Death Korps were not the cream of the crop, they were random ass loyalist guardsmen on a reasonably prosperous Hive world much like this one. Then the Governor decided he would rather not pay his tithe.

And if the assassinations fail the lose condition is still the planet getting nuked.
 
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The people who became the Death Korps were not the cream of the crop, they were random ass loyalist guardsmen on a civilized world much like this one. Then the Governor decided he would rather not pay his tithe.
Perhaps my phrasing was inexact, but my point stands, we have already seen the cracks and hypocrisy in the local Admech's untied front. These are not die-hard zealots marching to their deaths.

And if the assassinations fail the lose condition is still the planet getting nuked.
How? Really, how? It's not like they would know who we are, or where we are. And we can do things to hack the nukes first to reduce any risks.

Vita has already shown a tendency to include properly paranoid self-destructs in her robots. I can't imagine any hypothetical assassination attempt would be any less prepared.
Even in a worst-case botched scenario, they only know someone is gunning for their life. (Like say, perhaps one of their rivals)

But "Nuke the whole planet" is not a proportional response to failed assassination attempt. Sure they won't ignore it, but blindly throwing around nukes will get them zilch.
 
The planet that they happen to be on? Are these spherical extremists in a frictionless vacuum? Like, I don't doubt there are true zealots among them. But we have also seen how much more flawed and human they really are. We can make that work in our favor.

Not to say we don't have to worry about their reactions at all. But I expect there will be steps between "Entirely ignorant" and "Glass the whole planet". Especially if we keep the majority of the pressure internal and act with a modicum of subtlety.
My whole point is that we don't have to go to them fairly or deal with them plainly. We can scam them trick them and bamboozle them.

Like, look at things from their perspective. They glass the planet- and then what? Even if they don't die in the initial blast. without the planet's supply of resources and new recruits they are screwed regardless of where they are. Even the station requires regular re-supply.
Well, we are dealing with zealots. And their leader seems to have ties to the Inquisition. They don't need to realize Vita is an AI or think she is an Ancient hoarding technology from the DAoT. Them thinking just that, for example, "Magos Vita" is a Heretek spreading sacred knowledge of the machine to the unworthy masses?

Or maybe they make no connection at all between Aevon and Vita at this point, just realizing that Aevon has access to untolerably advanced technology and scientific knowledge. Just that, while almost certainly not a "glass the whole planet" worthy? Still would be enough for them to bomb Aevon to literal stone age for their sins, and to preserve the dominance of the Enclaves and the survival of their faith.

And if they notice someone using even more advanced technology to protect Aevon's manufacturing and civilian centers? Oh dear, that might be the work of an actual former tech-priest Heretek due to how advanced the technology is. Maybe even tainted by Chaos? And then it likely spirals all the way down from there.

So yeah, I would say that the paranoia is well deserved.
-and if we were dealing with them I might agree with you! But we aren't exactly dealing with the cream of the crop here. These are the embers and the dregs. This is almost as easy as it can get.

If it requires a few well-timed assassinations, so be it. It will be far less bloody then an outright war.
Then it comes down to this question: how much effort and time are you willing to spend on finding a way to kill basically all of the senior leadership in all the Enclaves? Developing reliable assination methods against old, well protected and almost universally paranoid Magi, while at the same time subverting large enough majority of the lower ranks under their nose. Without, you know, them then purging their ranks out of heresy if it becomes too obvious.

Then if we manage to get there staging a revolution? If you swing and miss the initial strike? Well, the Magi might not be able to win anymore and know it. But the Adeptus Mechanicus is as petty as hell. So if they cannot win, they sure as hell can make everyone else lose too.

And would you look at that, we have come full circle with the planet being glassed as a final "fuck you" to Aevon, us and the rest of the planet.

But just to make sure: @Neablis what is Vita's guess on how likely is the senior leadership of the Enclaves is to resort to just nuking the whole planet in the case of an attempted assassination/revolution failing to get all of them with the initial strike? What would be likely required to assassinate them in the first place even semi-reliably? And what kind of effort we are looking if we want subvert enough people just not to sabotage things in secret, but to actually pull of an internal revolution from the lower and middle ranks with the senior Magi out of the way?

This is not even mentioning the fact that Neablis has been hinting to us to not take too long. We are on a clock, and all our preparations against the AdMech might get overturned when something else drops in. So no. I'm not taking another multiple decades to attempt a perfect internal revolution for the Mechanicus.
 
Perhaps my phrasing was inexact, but my point stands, we have already seen the cracks and hypocrisy in the local Admech's untied front. These are not die-hard zealots marching to their deaths.

We have not, the corruption you have described is the Ad Mech working as normal, every last corrupt lot of the would still rather blow themselves up than have an AI running lose, or even letting this planet get their hands on their tech.
 
But just to make sure: @Neablis what is Vita's guess on how likely is the senior leadership of the Enclaves is to resort to just nuking the whole planet in the case of an attempted assassination/revolution failing to get all of them with the initial strike? What would be likely required to assassinate them in the first place even semi-reliably? And what kind of effort we are looking if we want subvert enough people just not to sabotage things in secret, but to actually pull of an internal revolution from the lower and middle ranks with the senior Magi out of the way?
You're not entirely sure. They'd definitely do it if there was no good reason not to, and "Yeah that's like four billion people" isn't a good reason for them. But it's clear that they're getting resources from the locals, and you're not sure if that's a "nice to have" or a "need to have" thing for them.

If the locals rose up against them you think the most likely response would be orbital strikes/nukes against the capitol cities & military forces of the offenders, though how complete that strike is depends on how much the mechanicus is threatened, how much they need the resources/recruits those cities provide, and how much of a message they want to send to everybody else.

It's worth keeping in mind that they didn't step in with their own nukes or orbital bombardments when the Imperial government got overthrown, and they could have.

At the end of the day, you think that they're unlikely to glass the planet unless it's to counter a threat that's worth jeopardizing their mission or continued survival. They might be able to eke out survival and start rebuilding after destroying civilization across the planet, but it would be hard and annoying. If they knew you were present that would definitely qualify.

As for assassinating them - these are senior Magi of the Adeptus Mechanicus we're talking about. They're old, they're paranoid, they're hard to kill and did I say paranoid. It would be very hard, verging on impossible, to do quietly. You'd either need to storm the enclaves with troops, destroy the entire enclave with conventional or nonconventional techniques or have a infiltrator plant a high-yield conventional explosive in their quarters and detonate it when they're there.

The internal revolution depends on a lot of factors, including how complete your extermination of the top-level Magi are, who your agents are and what kind of control you have. You've got a decent following in the lower levels of the mechanicus already and that provides avenues to subvert more, so it would probably take one good roll or two decent rolls to successfully build up a splinter faction that could stand up to the rest, and stand a good chance of mostly taking over if your bots were in military control of the enclaves.

This is not even mentioning the fact that Neablis has been hinting to us to not take too long. We are on a clock, and all our preparations against the AdMech might get overturned when something else drops in. So no. I'm not taking another multiple decades to attempt a perfect internal revolution for the Mechanicus.
It's still something you could go for, and there are upsides. Denva would build itself into a functional spacefaring nation faster if it had the expertise and resources of the enclaves instead of having to build all of that up from scratch by itself.

But yeah, doing that would slow you down, and there's an argument to be made that once you can stop worrying about hiding you can start busting industry and build them a complete orbital infastructure in a single action.

On that note, goodnight!
 
[X] Plan: Mag-Rail To Heavens

@Neablis
Spare rockets in Orbit (i.e. left over after killsat destroying Alpha Strike was successfull) can be used as rocket artillery against ground targets, right? (Assuming targets on the ground below their orbit position)
 
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