Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

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BigBadBob7070 said:
If you honestly think we can just subvert the entire local AdMech in a reasonable timeframe into being more Iconoclastic without a fight, then you are woefully naive. They are still unanimously led by hidebound traditionalists and zealots that would rather horde all their tech and knowledge and kill anyone that gets in the way of their dominance.

Denva Secundus doesn't need the AdMech anyway. If anything, the Enclaves are holding them back b/c any attempt the nations here try to advance their tech gets smothered in the crib. And besides, we can very easily take over their role and be vastly better b/c we could freely share how to maintain and create all the tech in our databases.

As for your fears of them nuking everyone else if they get suddenly attacked by robots, it feels like you are dooming to the point of being eye-roll worthy. Not once has @Neablis said that they were likely to do so even when his suggestion for a full-on conventional war involved nukes getting thrown out, and even if they did realize they were getting attacked by an AI, they know damn well that we would operate just as well if we were in a nuked-out hellhole since we only need raw material to start building up. If anything, they're more likely to blow themselves up with their nukes in an attempt at asset denial than try and go scorched Earth.

The point is, conflict with them is inevitable, and we are going to have to kill more than a few leaders with assassinations. This is 40K after all; if you aren't willing to go to war against someone who thinks you deserve to die for existing, you're already due for a grisly death in a short time.
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Wow, you view them negatively; they have been abandoned by the imperium and ad mech always have the drift as other governments to be different then the mars cult (see forge worlds) if they get cut off, so excuse me for saying if we do something like subvert them and make them a more beneficial member of society, I dont want WMD flying on this planet, so we go the intrigue diplo route, subvert them to our cause, and get personal from them; furthermore, it would be good for our cover in the wider imperial space that we are and ad mech member who is an explorator of this planet. Btw, maybe we can get up the tech tree so we can make a great exodus of the mechanicus and make a forge world?

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[X] Plan: Exponential Growth In Education
 
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Neablis said:
Is that a serious worry? This isn't imperial space anymore. Any Inquisitior is likely to be doing their best to prop up an Imperial Successor state that's desperately trying to hold off enemies on all fronts (because they made most of those enemies, but still.) It's not impossible, but I think you're underestimating how many things a hypothetical inquisitor would be worrying about.
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Inquisitors are not quite Skyrim-player levels of erratic buuut I could definitely see one picking flowers over here in heretic space while right next door Imperial sectors burn ( :V ).

More seriously in addition to being almost universally evil inquisitors are so powerful that how they 'serve the Imperium' is up to them and them alone with very few lines they cannot cross. If one of those sees massive increases in tech somewhere and starts chasing down rumors of ancients that is not even fringe, that is arguably them doing their job as intended.
 
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Lord Bane said:
Wow, you view them negatively; they have been abandoned by the imperium and ad mech always have the drift as other governments to be different then the mars cult (see forge worlds) if they get cut off, so excuse me for saying if we do something like subvert them and make them a more beneficial member of society, I dont want WMD flying on this planet, so we go the intrigue diplo route, subvert them to our cause, and get personal from them; furthermore, it would be good for our cover in the wider imperial space that we are and ad mech member who is an explorator of this planet. Btw, maybe we can get up the tech tree so we can make a great exodus of the mechanicus and make a forge world?
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They were abandoned by the Imperium 160 years ago keep in mind. Tech priests do not have human level lifespans, every last one of the leaders and most of the middle postings will be filled by people who are genuine imperials in faith and deed, if saner than most in their position since they did not already blow up the planet when it rebelled. I would consider that a pretty common imperial response to rebellion. What made Krieg special was not that they tried to bomb themselves into oblivion, it's that they failed and produced... well Krieg.
 
DragonParadox said:
Also looking at it from the other side if Anexa rolls low and she can't accept what we are them's the breaks. She's a somewhat clever tech acolyte, there are plenty of others out there including on this very planet.
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That is what the cells are for. Somewhere to keep her securely while taking another crack at deprogramming her if she reacts poorly. I mean, it is possible that we will just keep rolling very low and fail enough times to completely lose the chance of turning her to our side. But this should at least slightly shift the odds into our favor in the long run.

Though again, you can never completely know with RNG. Series of rolls with extremely low odds happen more often than you would think, but hey. That is just how it sometimes is.
 
This time around I regrettably only have the time to be a low-info voter. I'm largely basing my reasoning on this post:
forums.sufficientvelocity.com

Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest Mature - Sci-Fi

If they realized you were an AI and they had a planet-cracker they'd use it. So they might try to sterilize Denva Secundus just to deny you agents and resources. The Mechanicus are petty like that. Right, so in the spirit of the Quest philosophy, I wanted to give you both my interpretation of...
forums.sufficientvelocity.com forums.sufficientvelocity.com

And a brief review of the diplomacy write-ins.

And based on that, my question is: Do we have plans for the bean that need us to hurry with her? If not, I'd rather go slower and steadier.

I don't see it as dishonest to do so (or at least, not moreso than the alternative). We legitimately don't know anything about the warp side of what the mechanicus do - something in any way like an Omnissiah could exist, even if we're very very certain it does not fit the descriptions or history the mechanicus ascribe to it.

"We have not proven it, and we do not believe in it. We have disproven some of what is said about it. We wish to believe what is true - and science distinguishes truth from falsehood where faith does not.

So until then, we know that we do not know, and work towards ever deeper truth."


Anyways, I don't like to think of the bean as replaceable. I like the character we've seen, and I don't want to be a character who easily detaches themselves from people they've already started thinking about as family.

So, I default to slow and steady.

[X] Plan: Exponential Growth In Education
 
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meianmaru said:
That is what the cells are for. Somewhere to keep her securely while taking another crack at deprogramming her if she reacts poorly. I mean, it is possible that we will just keep rolling very low and fail enough times to completely lose the chance of turning her to our side. But this should at least slightly shift the odds into our favor in the long run.

Though again, you can never completely know with RNG. Series of rolls with extremely low odds happen more often than you would think, but hey. That is just how it sometimes is.
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I would imagine that once someone decides you are Robo-Satan that's it barring some kind of religious revelation proving you are not that which is a bit come to come by since by all evidence we have her god is not real.
 
Prime 2.0 said:
I don't see it as dishonest to do so (or at least, not moreso than the alternative). We legitimately don't know anything about the warp side of what the mechanicus do - something in any way like an Omnissiah could exist, even if we're very very certain it does not fit the descriptions or history the mechanicus ascribe to it.
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Certainly it could exist, but trying to prove or disprove it is a waste of time since a transcendent omnipotent god is unfalsifiable.
 
DragonParadox said:
Certainly it could exist, but trying to prove or disprove it is a waste of time since a transcendent omnipotent god is unfalsifiable.
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Finding out whether or not some of the things the mechanicus ascribe to the omnissiah are real and what causes them does not require we be capable of falsifying omnipotence. Or believe that there is anything that is omnipotent.

Please think twice before reading something so unreasonable into what I say. This is a weekday, I'm not even going to be around to clarify if you strawman me on accident.
 
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Prime 2.0 said:
So, I default to slow and steady.

[x] Plan: Exponential Growth Approaching
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Neablis said:
This is a cautious plan. You take less risk but also stand to gain less because the write-in doesn't have a path towards telling her the truth. This plan is much more likely to require you to spend another action converting Anexa next turn, but also less likely (only on an actual 1) would you need to use the cells. Basically just a narrower probability distribution around the expected result.
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The Education one is the slow and steady from the qm post.

I'm fine with either plan winning, both seems fine just we'll need to do a two diplo action the turn after if the more cautious wins (or we dont roll real good on less cautious), or try and do it in a joint action.
 
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Prime 2.0 said:
Anyways, I don't like to think of the bean as replaceable. I like the character we've seen, and I don't want to be a character who easily detaches themselves from people they've already started thinking about as family.

So, I default to slow and steady.

[x] Plan: Exponential Growth Approaching
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Loathe as I'm lessening the chances of my plan winning... I believe based your argument that you accidentally voted for the wrong plan. That is my plan, which is about trying to convert her faster with the more honest and direct approach. (EDIT: ninja'ed)

Speaking of which: my plan is definitely the more honest one. Because in the other plan we still keep up the fiction of not being from the Dark Age of Technology. And actually strengthen it. Also, unfortunately, slow and steady at some point becomes very unwieldy. And I would like to point out that the world moves forward all the time. We can never know if something random like the neighboring hostile aliens (thanks, Imperium) come for a visit.
 
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dbRevned said:
The Education one is the slow and steady from the qm post.

I'm fine with either plan winning, both seems fine just we'll need to do a two diplo action the turn after if the more cautious wins (or we dont roll real good on less cautious), or try and do it in a joint action.
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Thank you for letting me know. Says about how rushed I am that I mixed the two up.

There was a post I made replying to Meian that was up for a bit, it's... pretty much moot. I think.

I still don't want to actually argue anything though.
 
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dbRevned said:
The Education one is the slow and steady from the qm post.
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It's the less risk/less reward plan this turn.

But well :

the write-in doesn't have a path towards telling her the truth. T
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That is a problem that we'd need to fix the next turn, and then that risk all comes right back.
The plan just postpones, it doesn't really solve.

Mostly, (and this is my personal opinion) it comes across as dishonest/evasive. We promised that, unlike her previous master, we would reward her curiosity, not give her endless runarounds, and then this vote does just that.
 
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Prime 2.0 said:
Finding out whether or not some of the things the mechanicus ascribe to the omnissiah are real and what causes them does not require we be capable of falsifying omnipotence. Or believe that there is anything that is omnipotent.

Please think twice before reading something so unreasonable into what I say. This is a weekday, I'm not even going to be around to clarify if you strawman me on accident.
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Lightning is real, that does not say anything about the existence of Zeus. Even if we do find that say machine spirits have a warp-y component that does not say anything for the Omnisiah since that is the incarnate aspect of a transcendent God, No Machine God no Omnissiah
 
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Neablis said:
Right, so in the spirit of the Quest philosophy, I wanted to give you both my interpretation of your write-ins, just so we're clear how I'll interpret each. This isn't to say which one I like more, just to tell you my reading.
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Can we get some evaluations for other suggestions as well, even if it's unlikely any of them ever make it.

Anexa believes in the Omnissiah, but the Omnissiah was told to her by her master. Her master believes in them because they were told by their master, and so forth.
But we can prove that the faith has been altered by the matter temporal. Doctrines are passed done not as divine writ of God, but by the concerns and fears and privileges of the people above them.
The Omnissiah venerates the ancients that came before, but it also declares technology of xeno origin to be worthless. But we are an Exploration AI. I am certain we have files, properly datastamped to that time of the ancients, that include observations of xeno technology. Show her those, and ask her to reconcile the two. (Just remember to like, scrub out your own name on the files).

What does belief in the Omnissiah mean, when it's clear that so much of the faith is the creation of lesser men.
But beyond that, all the faith is, is the creation of lesser men and women, a tool to mold the Mechanicus in their, not God's image.
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--[] Anexa is correct in you don't believe in the Omnissiah, that doesn't mean you're tainted by the Warp. For now you'll have to convince her you believe in the Omnisiah just not in the way most Tech-Priests do. Point out holes in their logic and show her some of the technology you've 'rediscovered' like the Psychic shielding if you need a very convincing example. You won't stop her from worshipping the Omnissiah but you will try to convince her following something or someone like a lemming is a bad idea.
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10ebbor10 said:
Can we get some evaluations for other suggestions as well, even if it's unlikely any of them ever make it.



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It takes some thought to put together my interpretation so I won't do it willy-nilly, generally only for the top few contenders. That being said, I'll take a look at those.

Both of them are pretty similar in theme and method to the more cautious write-in. There's not a magical set of words that'll make this work, since trying to change somebody's beliefs is a hard thing to do. They're trying to convince her that the cult of the machine is wrong, not trying to convince her that you are right maybe you are good, even if you're an AI. Just different approaches.
 
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