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The danger to this approach is that if you hold delineation between Gods to be a fool's errand, then you're saying all the Gods are really to some degree also the Chaos Gods.

Perhaps they are. It was quite deliberate on the parts of the writers of WFB to leave it ambiguous whether the gods of 'order' were part of a continuum with the Chaos Gods. They've discussed it in interviews.

Are Khaine and Myrmidia and Khorne just different overlapping circles on a Venn diagram that mortals project onto the unknowable Aethyr/Chaos Undivided? For a long time, that was something that the authors intended, to the degree they could keep anything straight, to leave as a possibility.

They just weren't all on the same page and weren't always very good at it.
 
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@Boney, thank you very much for taking the time to answer my many questions.

The bonus for Dhar is listed as Eonir, in contrast to every other Teclisean Magic topic that got an Asur bonus. Is this intentional?

Yes. Dhar-based magic is associated with the Druchii and with the destruction of Saphery's former capital, but the Eonir retain a lot of the knowledge that the modern Asur have abandoned.

Does Lileath have any common symbols that resemble a downward-facing V or Y? (That is, flipped from their orientation in this text)

The crescent moon appears in all orientations, including downwards-facing.

I was more thinking of justifications for existing changes compared to the pre-split Mandala. But I was also thinking of such a thing needing justification or saying something about the gods themselves. I guess the more accurate interpretation is that the Mandala is more about who is important to the Elves locally. I.e. Tor Lithanel doesn't need to explain why Asuryan is generally below Isha. Just that Isha favors Tor Lithanel and Tor Lithanel favors Isha, for personal/cultural/political reasons. And that doesn't require much in the way of theology to explain.

If you have questions about why certain Gods are or aren't favour, then ask them and I'll give answers if that information is available to Mathilde.
 
I wonder if the various temples of the elven gods have their own smaller libraries that might be interested in reciprocal arrangements with ours, for more specialist subjects.

I can see the Eonir devotees of Hekarti being interested in access to our restricted sections.
 
I wonder if the various temples of the elven gods have their own smaller libraries that might be interested in reciprocal arrangements with ours, for more specialist subjects.

I can see the Eonir devotees of Hekarti being interested in access to our restricted sections.

Restricted section nothing, I'd trade them the Liber Mortis if we had some assurance they would not try to blackmail us with it. Elves are not beholden to mortality the same way humans are, as far as we know there has never been an elf necromancer, certainly not one who raised an army that way. If there is anyone who can be trusted to use the Second Secret, but not the First it's an elven mage. Alas the closest to 'trustworthy enough' is Sarvoy and he is still a ways away.
 
Now that it seems like Boney's done adding books, I went and counted the total numerical changes in our library. All in all, our new books are worth 15400 gold, not counting the value of our new Old Ones vault (and the value of the stacks).
Natural Science (+13 Asur, +12 Eonir, +24 total)
Fauna (+7 Asur, +32 Eonir, +39 total)
Flora (+5 Eonir, +5 total)
Geography (+4 Asur, +4 total)
Hydrography (+8 Asur, +2 Eonir, +10 total)

Social Science (+11 Asur, +5 Eonir, +16 total)
Civilized Realms (+8 Asur, +8 total)
Enemies of Man (+5 Asur, +5 Eonir, +10 total)

Applied Science (+11 Asur, +15 Eonir, +26 total)
War and Combat (+13 Asur, +15 Eonir, +28 total)

Teclisean Magic (+29 Asur, +2 Eonir, +31 total)
Advanced Magic (+12 Asur, +12 Eonir, +24 total)
Magical Phenomena (+3 Asur, +12 Eonir, +15 total)
Dark Magic (+4 Asur, +5 Eonir, +9 total)

Old World Pantheon (+1 Eonir, +1 Total)
Dwarven Ancestor Gods (+9 Asur, +9 total)
Cadai (+8 Asur, +17 Eonir, +25 total)
Cytherai (+8 Asur, +5 Eonir, +13 total)
Ellinill and the Ellinilli (+8 Asur, +2 Eonir, +10 total)

TOTAL CHANGES:
ASUR: +161
EONIR: +147
TOTAL: +308
TOTAL GOLD VALUE OF BOÖK: 15350 GOLD
 
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Restricted section nothing, I'd trade them the Liber Mortis if we had some assurance they would not try to blackmail us with it. Elves are not beholden to mortality the same way humans are, as far as we know there has never been an elf necromancer, certainly not one who raised an army that way. If there is anyone who can be trusted to use the Second Secret, but not the First it's an elven mage. Alas the closest to 'trustworthy enough' is Sarvoy and he is still a ways away.

To be honest, given that they use Dhar already but manage not to abuse it, would it actually be a problem if they use the First Secret in limited ways?

The safest way to trade probably wouldn't be to trade the LM directly. It would be for Mathilde to write her own big book of Dhar covering all she's learned about the energy, how to dispel it, and how others use it, and then offer to sell that in confidence as the Empire's collective knowledge on the subject.

We'd claim that we're selling it with the understanding that this is so they too can better fight dhar users and so defeat our mutual enemies, but the nod and the wink would be that they could use it as well, and so they'd pay more for it.

That's much harder to blackmail us about. Such a trade of magical lore is arguably within Mathilde's rights to make, but given the general status of magic in the Empire it would be understood why this wouldn't be publicised. The Eonir's own prior reluctance to trade valuable magical secrets would actually make this more credible. And would also justify why we'd make this offer to the Grey Lords/the Cult of Hekarti now.

They may know the two secrets of Dhar already, but there are probably things about necromancy and what Mathilde has seen of the Lore of Stealth that they haven't.
 
I for one think that improving the availability of runesmith assistance to the colleges would be a great addition to the galaxy flex we're going for this turn. Knight-Bringer and Waystones and orbs, the more the merrier!
 
Rereading the library subject list, as there's a book section called Hydrology, I think it would be better for the Hyrdology category to be called Oceanography.

I for one think that improving the availability of runesmith assistance to the colleges would be a great addition to the galaxy flex we're going for this turn. Knight-Bringer and Waystones and orbs, the more the merrier!

I just don't see why it would increase availability, rather than just redistribute availability.
 
To be honest, given that they use Dhar already but manage not to abuse it, would it actually be a problem if they use the First Secret in limited ways?

The safest way to trade probably wouldn't be to trade the LM directly. It would be for Mathilde to write her own big book of Dhar covering all she's learned about the energy, how to dispel it, and how others use it, and then offer to sell that in confidence as the Empire's collective knowledge on the subject.

We'd claim that we're selling it with the understanding that this is so they too can better fight dhar users and so defeat our mutual enemies, but the nod and the wink would be that they could use it as well, and so they'd pay more for it.

That's much harder to blackmail us about. Such a trade of magical lore is arguably within Mathilde's rights to make, but given the general status of magic in the Empire it would be understood why this wouldn't be publicised. The Eonir's own prior reluctance to trade valuable magical secrets would actually make this more credible. And would also justify why we'd make this offer to the Grey Lords/the Cult of Hekarti now.

They may know the two secrets of Dhar already, but there are probably things about necromancy and what Mathilde has seen of the Lore of Stealth that they haven't.

I guess in the abstract an elf could probably raise one (1) zombie and then spend the next week getting rid of the Dhar pollution of that event and the world would not be any worse for it. I don't see any reason why they would do it though. Necromancy isn't fundamentally designed to be used responsibly.
 
[X][LIBRARY] Colleges of Magic: Liminal Pathways, Nehekharan Pantheon, The Mortuary Cult, Nehekharan Incantations
[X][COLLEGE] No purchase.
[X][DWARF] No purchase.
 
Now that it seems like Boney's done adding books, I went and counted the total numerical changes in our library. All in all, our new books are worth 14850 gold, not counting the value of our new Old Ones vault (and the value of the stacks).
Natural Science (+12 Asur, +12 Eonir, +24 total)
Fauna (+7 Asur, +22 Eonir, +29 total)
Flora (+5 Eonir, +5 total)
Geography (+4 Asur, +4 total)
Hydrography (+8 Asur, +2 Eonir, +10 total)

Social Science (+11 Asur, +5 Eonir, +16 total)
Civilized Realms (+8 Asur, +8 total)
Enemies of Man (+5 Asur, +5 Eonir, +10 total)

Applied Science (+11 Asur, +15 Eonir, +26 total)
War and Combat (+13 Asur, +15 Eonir, +28 total)

Teclisean Magic (+29 Asur, +2 Eonir, +31 total)
Advanced Magic (+12 Asur, +12 Eonir, +24 total)
Magical Phenomena (+3 Asur, +12 Eonir, +15 total)
Dark Magic (+4 Asur, +5 Eonir, +9 total)

Old World Pantheon (+1 Eonir, +1 Total)
Dwarven Ancestor Gods (+9 Asur, +9 total)
Cadai (+8 Asur, +17 Eonir, +25 total)
Cytherai (+8 Asur, +5 Eonir, +13 total)
Ellinill and the Ellinilli (+8 Asur, +2 Eonir, +10 total)

TOTAL CHANGES:
ASUR: +160
EONIR: +137
TOTAL: +297
TOTAL GOLD VALUE OF BOÖK: 14850 GOLD

20.000 is a palace it is worth keeping in mind so we got about 3/4ths of a palace in rare-to-priceless-books. That about tracks to selling a crate full of Ithilmar.
 
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@Boney, I have more subject suggestions (sorry mathymancer).

-For Flora: Old World Wetlands, unless that's covered by Forests.
-I think they should get Arthropods because Patrons of the Old World page 14 tells us that the Eonir weave the intelligence of spiders into their weapons, and their Textile books presumably have information on weaving spider silk, which'd need spiders.
-Books relating to the Heomreth if they exist in Divided Loyalties, unless that's covered by Hoeth or Birds of Prey.
-Ursines, Chiroptera, and Canines if the Eonir employ bears, bats, and giant wolves in warfare like the Wood Elves do in Total War (they also use giant spiders).
-Books on mutation maybe?
-Zoats?
-Demigryphs if they exist in Laurelorn, unless that's covered by Birds of Prey.
-Octopoda. There's wetlands nearby so you've got bog octopi, and WFRP 2e: WFRP Companion p113 has elven writing saying bog octopi were servants of the Old Ones.
-Rune Magic. If even the Empire's got it, elves probably do too. I believe this counts as theory? Or at least more similar to Enchantment than Rituals.
-Gut Magic, for obvious reasons.
-Warpstone, because it's found everywhere IIRC and Eonir are the type to use Dark Magic.
-Snakes, because Atharti.
-Asur books on phoenixes, unless they count as Birds of Prey.
-Whatever birds are associated with Loec.
-Incarnate elementals unless they're part of the Wind subjects rather than Elementals.
-Recreational drugs unless that's covered by Medicine or, like alcohol, the Stacks.
-Shields, as in using them (making them would be Carpentry I believe).
-Fletching, unless that's covered by Carpentry.
-Are constructs like fenbeasts their own subject?
 
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I guess in the abstract an elf could probably raise one (1) zombie and then spend the next week getting rid of the Dhar pollution of that event and the world would not be any worse for it. I don't see any reason why they would do it though. Necromancy isn't fundamentally designed to be used responsibly.

The kind of thing that I'd see elves using the principles of necromancy for is binding the souls of the dead to the material world so they can be consulted for their wisdom later.

The elven not-barrow-wights that are encountered in some places had their souls bound to their bodies and magic used so that they reanimate to murder people who try to desecrate their tombs by someone around the point of death, and presumably that was other elves.

These elves are all there, mentally, they can choose to assume their living form to converse with intruders and sometimes talk to elves to persuade them to leave them in peace (or, potentially, to allow their body to be respectfully removed and transported elsewhere for reburial).

That suggests that the elves have historically used something like necromancy to bind souls to corpses and animate those corpses.

Of course, the other thing elves might be happy to use necromancy for is on beastmen. Wherever they are is already contaminated with Dhar, so you can probably just use that existing energy for the Necromancy rather than creating significant amounts of new Dhar, and might net reduce Dhar production by using dead beastmen to kill living ones before they can spread their corruption.

A skilled elf can also probably more safely use Necromancy's Shyish Tongs to so so while keeping well clear of the bad magic, and probably also knows how to shield themselves from the ambient Dhar (if it even effects them in the way it does humans).
 
The danger to this approach is that if you hold delineation between Gods to be a fool's errand, then you're saying all the Gods are really to some degree also the Chaos Gods.
This is the part where I make the observation that Khaine's name is awfully similar to Khorne's, and that one of Slaanesh's names is Loesh, which is very close to Loec.

It would have been quite clever of the Old Ones if creating similar gods that weren't completely insane was an attempt from them to steal part of the Chaos Gods' power via the elves' beliefs.
 
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