Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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Sometimes I think this thread is going to be absolutely gutted when Biyu is about ten or eleven and is a total headstrong brat rather than a cute little girl who says the darndest things.
Oh for sure, I already felt a prelude of that after Xuanji's cheerful newborn greeting to Ling Qi as a chick, only to immediately timeskip into the current Young Mistress hen in her subsequent appearance.
 
Power does not corrupt, power clarifies, power enables people to do what they're inclined to do without consequences.

There is some evidence this isn't actually true- but it's a hard subject to research and chock full of confusing variables.


The issue is mainly the part where the side that gets by without major power disparity gets flattened when an external player with focused power rolls by.

Equality is best to live under, hierarchy wins wars. I feel like this is the main social tension that drives history.
 
Equality is best to live under, hierarchy wins wars. I feel like this is the main social tension that drives history.
This too is an oversimplification I think. Without hierarchy we would not be able to form the large scale organizations that enable us to, say, manufacture medicines at scale or generate gigawatts of electricity. A certain measure of hierarchy is necessary for prosperity.
 
Is it hierarchy, or organisation? You don't need hierarchy to organise, arguably all modern progress IRL been through realisation that hierarchies suck inherently and that we should let go of them, now that our material circumstances allow to efficiently organise without hierarchy.
 
Hierarchy lasts because a lack of hierarchy is free to change itself until it eventually changes to a form that resists change.
I really don't want to start to post about anarchic organisational principles, due to it being off topic (until we get to Zheng proper :V ), but it is perfectly possible to make a non-hierarchical organisation.
 
I really don't want to start to post about anarchic organisational principles, due to it being off topic (until we get to Zheng proper :V ), but it is perfectly possible to make a non-hierarchical organisation.
It'll be interesting to see how the Zheng organize themselves. To outsiders it looks like chaos, but the closer you look the more clear it is that the clan runs a tight ship backed up by overwhelming might*. So tight that many of the youngsters are beginning to rebel because they feel it is stifling.

*Two Whites and two dozen Prisms, and not a single case of organized rebellion from their vassals in recorded history. Reminds me of Maria in Uber: Invasion (WW2 with superhumans, by Kieron Gillen) after she's nuked the Kremlin and turned Stalin into red goop.
 
I really don't want to start to post about anarchic organisational principles, due to it being off topic (until we get to Zheng proper :V ), but it is perfectly possible to make a non-hierarchical organisation.

It's not impossible, but in practice what you usually end up with is a hierarchy that no one talks about or acknowledges because it's a non-hierarchical organization, it doesn't have a hierarchy, what are you talking about. It's basically an entropy thing, where any system is gradually going to gravitate toward someone being in charge.
 
I'm gonna be honest, all the people talking about how hierarchy is innately evil and causes people to look at other people like things...

You've all had some absolutely terrible parents huh?
 
I'm not sure the Zheng are a good example of a good, effective non-hierarchical organisation.
Zheng Nan agreed. "But the difference is in how we saw ourselves."

"We were warriors and heroes, fighting was our virtue, and we took prizes we felt worthy of our strength. Each of us could live in our own heads, the king of our own little story, for all that there could be no King of the Zheng," Zheng Nan said, chair falling forward with a thud and creak. "But the Strife… the Strife, we thought we were just getting into another little romp. Buncha knuckleheads we always were."

The Strife could only refer to the Strife of Twin Emperors, the interregnum between the first and second dynasty, a thousand year civil war embroiling all the Empire.

"I think you Fields folks would understand the best. That wasn't a fight, it wasn't even a war, a thousand years of nonstop killing is an ancestors-be-damned nightmare. Every Way and every craft turned to nothing but thoughts of how to kill better. The journals from those days are some unhinged shit let me tell you. It's no wonder the Ao emperors had most of it burned."

He shook his head. "Point is though, it broke us. We couldn't go on being what we were after that. But we couldn't abandon our ways either, couldn't disrespect our ancestors like that. So… we made the Ebon Rivers a park, one big hidden world, a cultivation site for the Zheng clan. Everything managed to let us cultivate the old Ways without ever breaking things enough to start another nightmare like that. Just enough strife and evil to sharpen our ways on, but never actually allowed to root it out. That's how we've lived for ages."

That's from the Golden Field sidestory with Gu Xiulan.
I'm pretty sure Ling Qi will hate the Zheng the third most of all ducal clan. After the Jin and Bai (except reformer/Meizhen faction).

It's kind of funny the West territory is the second province whose values are the most similar to Ling Qi, on family, no bs court politic, all united for one shared goal, individuality encouraged. The first being the Xuan, the turtle boys of course.
 
I'm not sure the Zheng are a good example of a good, effective non-hierarchical organisation.


That's from the Golden Field sidestory with Gu Xiulan.
I'm pretty sure Ling Qi will hate the Zheng the third most of all ducal clan. After the Jin and Bai (except reformer/Meizhen faction).

It's kind of funny the West territory is the second province whose values are the most similar to Ling Qi, on family, no bs court politic, all united for one shared goal, individuality encouraged. The first being the Xuan, the turtle boys of course.
That's why I mentioned the public perception of the Zheng vs. the reality.

Edit:
Q&A stuff
Is there any lobbying to loosen the ban on soul qi so that one could research ways to permanently put down the Dead/sever them from the collective:
Yrsillar said:
Every once in awhile someone raises the point, and is promptly told to shut up
its just too taboo
It's banned in the Empire, but are there other civilizations where soul qi gets a lot of focus/development:
Yrsillar said:
Khem
their entire cultivation system is based on it
What if Shenhua going topless in the sect for losing that bet awakened something in her, and later when she ascended the ducal throne she started wearing nothing but pants on a regular basis:
Yrsillar said:
Pfft
that'd definitely make things rough, itd be a really costly bit of theater politically even if no one could actually make her stop
Ling Nuan giving Biyu extra nepo-help in the sect in the future:
Yrsillar said:
An elder sister angling to tutor the young is within normal levels of neoptism as long as the younger is still earning the points
What the characters' favourite summer olympics sport would be:
Yrsillar said:
Pfft those sound like good estimations, Meizhen watching volleyball with her whole face pink and a handkerchief held to her nose is incredibly amusing. Renxiang would probably enjoy fencing because its pretty ritualized... Ling Qi's probably be into the gymnastics competitions. Su Ling would probably like the men's weightlifting... I'm not sure Li Suyin would come out of her lab though
Who the outer sect disciples considered the most good-looking in their year:
Yrsillar said:
Hm, I think among the disciples they'd probably say Gu Xiulan is the prettiest, but Cai Renxiang would be the most admired
Handsomest guy is definitely Gan Guangli by the end of the year but Han Jian is up there
The best General in the Empire:
Yrsillar said:
Probably Sun Shao or the Guo Patriarch
How Empty Men are made (and why imo anyone engaged in the practise should be staked out in the desert sun for the ants):
Yrsillar said:
'empty men' as he called them basically kids raised and shaped to be disposable assets
since assassin is really not a job with much longevity in cultivator land until you get really high up there
Nah, I mean some stuff would be iffy it were investigated
but in the end if your not doing human reagent stuff you can raise your kids however you like
parents rights you know :p
Yeah
it'll be moderate common talents purchased and 'adopted' or fourth/fift w/e spare kids mostly
in the sense that your lords rep show up at your farmhouse one day and enigmatically indicates that they wish to take in your youngest to be raised as a servant of the clan, oh and here's a small stipend to soften the blow
they're civilized people after all
How the military works with cultivator diversity:
Yrsillar said:
Haha, yes people with different ways tend to advance along different tracks, a strategist or tactician type is more like to become a conventional commander and rise to high rank, while a direct warrior type probably rises normally until about the middle ranks and then probably gets spun off into one of the special warrior champion ranks that are necessary for a cultivator military
direct facepunch specialists basically have their own track and typically answer directly to peer level 'commander' types in order to maintain order and cohesion, even if they have zero command ability themselves
its actually pretty tangled up and intricate, especially when you work in that this is still mostly a bunch of feudal levies with competing or cross purpose chains of command
usually a general is within one realm of the clans typical top rank so yeah generals would be indigo and up for counts
on the provincial level it might be expected to run a prism as your overall commander yeah, so thats not entirely wrong
The Gu crow's odds of making Prism:
Yrsillar said:
She has been violet for a very long time with no growth in power, its considered very unlikely
Count funeral practises:
Yrsillar said:
That really comes down to the clan, most will usually have at least aweek of mounring when a sovereign cultivator dies, but the nature of what that means and their exact funeral practices vary widely
In ES at least, big clans usually have a grave groves, where they go to bury their dead
But being specific to those three...
The Han follow traditional GF fire burial. Crematory practices are universal in the GF as, while they don't properly get consumed by the Walkers anymore you could still get some nasty effects from corpses being left out in the early days
theirs focuses a bit on the smoke let off though and wafting it up to the sky above
The Fan have some deep mines that go down to a number of magma caverns, they entomb bodies by putting them into coffins filled with magma which they then seal and place in the mausoleums there
the Meng do the burial groves practice with a particular breed of sacred banyan tree
Pale colors are more associated with death the peaks and that leaks outward. In ES you mostly meant to wear dull colors with dark browns and greys being common
in the GF Black is the funerary color, but funerals will have the attendees all holding bright lights to represent the defiance of the sun against the outer dark
I'd say the Luo probably have fasting practices and so do the old tribes.
The Bao most likely associate lead with sickness and death
Pyrrhos olympics:
Yrsillar said:
They would not (let foreigners participate), but yes the inter city games are a sacred period which puts the inter city warring to rest for their duration, with violaters of the peace period being accursed by the gods
Outer Sect and spectator impression of Rixiong after the Outer Sect tournament:
Yrsillar said:
An eccentric but honorable fighter, he's weird and they might not want to host him but he's within ES tolerances for weird. Mostly glad to let the sect take someone so firmly zealous religiously though that type tends to cause trouble when put in contact with court stuff
 
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Year 45 Month 12 Arc 5-2
"The nature and theory of borders in geomantic terms," Ling Qi said after a long moments thought. "As a practitioner of dreamwalking, I have some instinctive understanding, but I think it would help me improve in many ways to dig deep into what it means to divide things."

"Is that so?" Meng Duyi said evenly, looking out over Snowblossom. "Your qi is one of attraction, acceptance. To me, it seems you have already decided that boundaries are things to be trampled over."

Ling Qi looked down."Community is, at the basest level defined by division, there are other factors, many of them, but… If I cannot come to understand and decide how that stands with my way, then my foundation is a thing of mud."

Meng Duyi was silent for a long moment, and it was not an agreeable silence. There was tension in the air lingering from her earlier gaffe with Huisheng's words.

"My uncle was that sort of man, wasn't he?"

She grimaced, bowing her head. It was true that Meng Delun's battle with the general, the wild venting of his power had lodged this thought in her head like a weed, and she could not dispute it. For there to be an 'Us' there must in turn be a 'them'.

"Is it truly impossible to reach Sovereignty, without trampling others?"

She asked the question that had lingered since her tribulation with the Nightmare of the Emerald Seas. There she had found a work around to the challenge, forced a third option where only two were presented. Take from Sixiang or be taken from by them.

But was that really always an option? It was a solution in the moment, but it left the root question unanswered.

He glanced her way. "It is. I find it strange a girl your age would ask, even moreso one who would speak the words you have. No, every moment a human lives they impose their will on the world. You may, and should try to be kind, to take minimally. But strife and conflict are intrinsic to the imperfect world the Mother and Father created. Beasts hunt and compete for space, grasses and trees strangle out competition with their roots and shade, men disagree over who shall stand where and have what. You have no issue enforcing your will and your sisters will upon the spirits of winter here."

"They can't be allowed to rampage and blow in as they wish across Shenglu, arranging beneficial rites is the most peaceful solution."

"It is, and yet the empty hungering whiteout, the weeping matron of the glacier, they would, given their will, rampage and devour," Meng Duyi said mildly.

"If you reject the notion of achieving oneness, of abandoning desire to reach a better state, and you do. You are no follower of the Dreaming Way… then why even ask this? So long as people are people, you will always trample the will and want of some in favor of others. As you said, the cost of multitude is multitude."

Ling Qi squeezed her eyes shut. He was right, she knew. She did not want to be tyrannical. She wished to achieve through the word rather than the sword.

But she already knew it was pointless folly to pretend that one could live without the sword, if one wished to hold anything, defend anything, advance anything.

"It was a foolish musing," Ling Qi admitted aloud. "I have merely been grappling with thoughts on where the line is."

"Those are fine thoughts to grapple, they are quarrelsome things after all," Meng Duyi said thoughtfully. "But you fall into a false dilemma, treating the question as absolute. Consider, rather what it is you would consider worth defying and defeating other wills in favor of."

"Does that not clash with the Dreaming Way?'

"I will not achieve enlightenment in this life, but my pride is too much," Meng Duyi replied. "I work to winnow my desires every day, in order to achieve more harmonious projects, with which more people can take the time to contemplate their spirits rather than suffering in privation. And for that I will not grasp that crown, my way is unsuited for it. This old man has foolishly pursued two hares, and for that he will capture neither. But, to teach is an Elder's prerogative, whatever mistakes they have made."

Ling Qi frowned, considering his words. Was Sovereignty not doing the impossible though? If one said 'you cannot' it was the prerogative of the ascended to say 'I Can'.

Which fundamentally defied and trampled the desire of the one who said 'you cannot'.

Frustrating, but… he was most likely right.

Even if she intended to get a second opinion soon, to quell and focus these thoughts.

"Thank you, teacher, for indulging my foolish questions," Ling Qi said, clasping her hands and bowing her head.

"It is not onerous," Meng Duyi said. "Borders then, the nature of that which divides, of categorization and… multitude. I will prepare lessons for this, when you return from your journey. Though we have only a few short months before you march to war."

She grimaced. "...Is it even worth it to beg when we will be interrupted so?"

Meng Duying rapped his cane on the ground. "It is the observation of my ancestors that focusing wholly on war twists the spirit. It was the madness of the Strife which made the Xi what they were, and whose bloodthirst saw the rise of the Hui. Contemplations of other things will not dull the blades you are sharpening."

She bowed once again.

***​
"You sure about this Qi?"

"It would feel wrong to put this off any longer. He should at least know what I've chosen to do with his teachings," Ling Qi said.

She sat atop the waters of the pond in the floating isle she had made her entrypoint into the dream. The shadow of the moon shrine she had found in the Sect's peaks now drifting above an eerily silent but beautiful lake, surrounded by sky piercing mountains whose peaks burned with angry blood red flame.

Save for one small stretch where golden scales and swarms of crows flashed amidst churning clouds and the stony hide of mountains remained coated in falling snow.

"Besides, I won't be getting any healthier, I think this last little spark… I'll need to smother or process it myself," Ling Qi said, resting a hand on her stomach. The last twinges of pain were well faded from her meridians, but like the dark particules of Huisheng's Qi, that viscous wrathful spark still burned down in the depths of her dantian.

Sixiang's chosen avatar faded into existence, seated in front of her, a frown on their lips. Their own hair was more flamelike than misty here, and in patches their robe smoked, tongues black and white fire clinging to their robes. "...I guess so. I dunno even if he helped us… I can;t help but be uneasy around this guy."

Ling Qi inclined her head. "I understand."

"Not even gonna ask if I don't wanna go?" Sixiang laughed.

"No point in asking a question I know the answer too, not with you," Ling Qi said, smiling.

"Fair, fair. Shall we go then?"

Ling QI nodded silently, standing up, the water rippled under her feet as she turned to the frameless door, standing to one side of the little garden. That was enough for it to drift open, black petals whispering as they stirred on the cold stone that lay on the other side of the threshold.
Sixiang lay a hand on her shoulder and they descended, down into the shattered gaol of Huisheng, the remnant shade of the Arch Heretic of the Dreaming Way.

She scanned his chamber carefully as they reached the bottom of the shallow rough cut stair, and felt a tingle of concern. Because the chamber had changed. The dark stone of the ceiling glittered like starlight, the same way her hair did when her qi was active, and the bare damp rock and mud of the floor was now blooming in patches, the lush black lotus flowers which infested Huisheng's bones now spread across the whole chamber.

Only the pool of liquid darkness and the isle itself were much the same. The bronze spear struck into the moldering loam of the isle burning with eerie green light.

And there was Huisheng himself, a bare skeleton threaded through with thorny vines, bound to a pillar of stone, black flowers blooming from ribs and jaw and eye sockets, the proud rack of bleached white antlers sweeping back from the temples of his skull.

Student. Long its been.

His raspy, grandfatherly voice bounced around the inside of her skull, having not disturbed a single mote of air.

She inclined her head. And responded the same, merely impressing meaning onto the world without a word. My teacher sensed the searing, unless that was only the figment you left from our games.

Nothing about the skeleton moved, only a single flower petal broke off drifting down to settle on the fathomless black pool without a ripple. She still felt the impression of an indulgent smile.

A choice was made. This one felt the flame.

Ling Qi stopped a few footsteps from the edge of the pool and respectfully knelt, Qiyi's fabric pooling around her in the rustling flowers. He was right, cowling herself in the mantle of his power to escape the Emerald Mourner had been her choice.

Its consequences were hers too.

What are your thoughts on the Crucible of Peoples, teacher, the student is curious.

Sixiang cast her a surprised look, but didn't say anything, kneeling at her side. Their qi was coiled tightly, ready to scatter, to fly them from this place with all haste.

When the world groans for change, when traditions become shackles, it births such engines. It names itself the Crucible today. In the past it bore other names. In the future, it will bear still more. I am beyond fear, but I am not beyond pity, for the person who hollowed themselves and filled what was left with the hells purging fires.

Study your foe, and pray that you need not give rise to its successor to claw your future into being.


Ling Qi took a deep breath, those words echoed through the gaol, through her head, stirring even her dantian. You know my next question teacher.

The student has forgotten, has chosen to forget. You have earned the answer, you merely hesitate at its implication.


Choice is pain. Choice is strife. Choice is disunity. Choice is life, the grand dream of the Nameless.

As they had under his mantle, facing Brother Darksong, Ling Qi, Sixiang, and Huisheng spoke as one. She did know. She did, so why…

The sword is unkind. Its cruelty is difficult to bear. You have been immersed in the flame of surety, a Sovereign's annihilating intent. What child would not shy away from what caused them such pain.

She grimaced, looking down. He was right. She had turned her thoughts toward peace toward harmonizing peoples and spirits with such abandon… but she had already chosen the path of Choice, when she defied the Nightmares conundrum.

And there were consequences to that. They too were hers.

Meng Duyi's words itched in her ears. He was right. She had rejected the fundamental premise of the Dreaming Way, that the path to transcendence via the sublimation of desire was worth pursuing.

No, that really wasn't something she could countenance.

Thank you for helping me order my thoughts, teacher.

This is the least one might do for a student, however sporadic. Peace is a worthy goal. It will be assailed by spear and fire at every turn.


She understood that. She still thought it was possible to do more, to be more, to spread the notion of community much further than it stood in the world today.

Perhaps one community could not contain everyone, but the thing was different circles could overlap. There was a notion there, one she needed to tease at further.

Hoh, plotting again, with so little push, the little thief makes the Elder proud. But, you have not come only for this.

She nodded faintly. "The student wished to update you, but it seems this was not necessary.

The teacher shall have an assignment or two, but now, I would hear your questions.


The qi of the room swirled and bubbled. She could sense the plucking threads, a new game would be afoot, a game she could lose. Sixiang's grip on her shoulder tightened.

As always there was a choice. The door was open. She did not rise.

The student would hear…

[ ] The teachers meditations on Exclusion and Isolation and their interaction with Community
[ ] The teachers meditations on Choice and Sincerity, and their interactions with Truth

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[ ] The teachers meditations on Choice and Sincerity, and their interactions with Truth

Did Ling Qi ever actually talk with Huisheng about this? Sure, mantling him did damage her Truth-Sincerity Insight and turn the Truth concept into Choice, but I think all of her meditation on it afterward was self-guided or with friends. Considering the explicit callback in this update to that incident, I think it'd be interesting to hear him speak more directly on it. All the more when Ling Qi's already spent a while chewing on the other topic, and I can't see Huisheng saying anything too revolutionary there.

Edit: Freedom into Choice, actually, Truth was just damaged. Checked the update again.
 
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[X] The teachers meditations on Choice and Sincerity, and their interactions with Truth

Interesting
 
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[ ] The teachers meditations on Exclusion and Isolation and their interaction with Community

I'm leaning towards this one because of how deeply marked by these his current existence is. A heretic isn't so by only his own choices, but by the determination of the Community he was born to. Slain and then thrown beyond the reach of space, time, and even the Dream, Huisheng is the echo of Exclusion and Isolation and their interaction with Community.

Side thought, but the way the guy was imprisoned, so that even the scraps of self cast off by death would be put beyond mingling with society even indirectly was a grotesque betrayal of his critics' own conception of the Dreaming way. I'm sure they justified it to themselves through some twisted reasoning or another, but the dude terrified them.
 
I feel like choice is at the center of our internal conflicts, so I'd like to examine it from new angles.

[ ] The teachers meditations on Choice and Sincerity, and their interactions with Truth
 
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