Attempting to Fulfill the Plan MNKh Edition
- Thread starter Blackstar
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Ashheap
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Dude calm down, I figured @Ultrackius is just talking shit from a few posts ago, so please don't waste your breath on the troll.
[X]Advocate for Biding Time
Ashheap
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Folk, come on, bidding for time is the same as escalation, it's a trap, please, I'm on my knees here, I still want this quest to continue 🙏
Stop trying to lose harder, the sunk cost aren't coming back, hasn't the last vote teach us anything? Please don't "it seems like a good idea at the time" anymore. Learn to take an L for Lenin sake.
Stop trying to lose harder, the sunk cost aren't coming back, hasn't the last vote teach us anything? Please don't "it seems like a good idea at the time" anymore. Learn to take an L for Lenin sake.
This sort of defeatism would have never flown under the leadership of Comrade Stalin. I will once more reiterate that we should keep escalating as if we back down, we will lose prestige. This is simply unacceptable, we must never back down to the forces of reaction as they will use this against us in the future and we should commit to this fully. If it ends in Nuclear hellfire, then we can at least know that it was for a good cause, the liberation of the Algerian proletariat from the oppression of the French.
[X]Escalate the Conflict
- Location
- Australia
[X]Advocate for Accepting the Terms
We cannot in good concious risk the lives of at absolute minimum millions of CEMA, Soviet, and French citizens (and potentially even Algerian too depending on if tactical strikes are performed on French military deployments there) whom had little to no say in this conflict or its escalation, and are as close to wholly innocent as anyone can realistically get, to so much as entertain the idea we might get slightly better concessions.
It's irresponsible to risk the many millions we are directly and potentially billions we are indirectly responsible for, no matter how improbable that risk might seem. As @CrabMonarchy's example so aptly demonstrates, eventually, if you roll enough 100s, you will get a 1, which is unjustifiable for a risk like nuclear war. We cannot and must not make a gamble we cannot afford to lose, that quite frankly nobody can afford to lose.
The end of our formal involvement for the foreseeable future does not mean the end of the people's struggle in Algeria, but a nuclear war could well be. If for no other reason than a nuclear war could well create a historical grievance and martyrdom which would be engrained in French (and frankly Soviet) culture in perpetuity.
In other words, if we want to "win" this struggle and idealogical "war", we need ensure there will be a tomorrow that can be won, which render concerns of winning the battle of today pointless and mute.
We cannot in good concious risk the lives of at absolute minimum millions of CEMA, Soviet, and French citizens (and potentially even Algerian too depending on if tactical strikes are performed on French military deployments there) whom had little to no say in this conflict or its escalation, and are as close to wholly innocent as anyone can realistically get, to so much as entertain the idea we might get slightly better concessions.
It's irresponsible to risk the many millions we are directly and potentially billions we are indirectly responsible for, no matter how improbable that risk might seem. As @CrabMonarchy's example so aptly demonstrates, eventually, if you roll enough 100s, you will get a 1, which is unjustifiable for a risk like nuclear war. We cannot and must not make a gamble we cannot afford to lose, that quite frankly nobody can afford to lose.
The end of our formal involvement for the foreseeable future does not mean the end of the people's struggle in Algeria, but a nuclear war could well be. If for no other reason than a nuclear war could well create a historical grievance and martyrdom which would be engrained in French (and frankly Soviet) culture in perpetuity.
In other words, if we want to "win" this struggle and idealogical "war", we need ensure there will be a tomorrow that can be won, which render concerns of winning the battle of today pointless and mute.
Ashheap
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Thankfully after this turn a lot of hawkish bureu members will not be with us anymore, clearly this demonstrated the cybernetic mechanism of our foreign policy at work. De-stalinization is necessary as the old thought process is obsolete in the face of mutually assured destruction. The Soviet people can't eat prestige in nuclear war anyhow. We will just have to change our approach to a more gradual and more covert one, as our struggle is an endurance race, not a sprint. Let the American underestimate our resolve for now, it is to our advantage.
Red Rationalist
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I think treating "biding for the time" as escalation is misreading the question. It keeps us at the same level of escalation, with the main motivation of wanting more concessions.
We don't want good NATO relations, we want the americans to get bogged down in pointless wars and NATO to be infighting. The best way to do that is to avoid escalating here, in a conflict the French are currently winning with material support, make the american hawks frustrated and eager to show off their strength and get them bogged down in an unfavourable conflict. There are political benefits to acting strong, but our political situation is stable. Deescalating is the right foreign policy move, though it comes at a moderate political penalty.
Now with this being said, biding for time is still a dumb decision in my opinion. France just got into a slapfight with us, the US came over and asked us "Wanna be the adult in the room and deescalate?" and are currently awaiting our response. If we try to take advantage of the situation, we are teaching the US that talking things out is going to involve a bunch of concessions they don't really want to make. I'm not convinced more concessions will actually come when the ambassador returns home with nothing after the first reasonable offer. Ashbrook is notably more hawkish, so weakening the situation by showing ourselves to be unreasonable weakens the dovish and moderate elements in the administration (You give the commies an inch, they take a mile) and strengthens US-French relationships for the sake of chest-beating.
We don't want good NATO relations, we want the americans to get bogged down in pointless wars and NATO to be infighting. The best way to do that is to avoid escalating here, in a conflict the French are currently winning with material support, make the american hawks frustrated and eager to show off their strength and get them bogged down in an unfavourable conflict. There are political benefits to acting strong, but our political situation is stable. Deescalating is the right foreign policy move, though it comes at a moderate political penalty.
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Whatever the French do is on them.
[X]Advocate for Accepting the Terms
Non-Canon Omake: Semyonov Apology Form
If we deescalate now and play our cards right in diplo, it's actually pretty great precedent for algerian and our allies. "USSR is willing to escalate over genocide and USA will slap your head if you let it happen" will make cold war a bit more civil.
[X]Advocate for Accepting the Terms
[X]Advocate for Accepting the Terms
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[X]Advocate for Biding Time
Ashheap
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I count playing hard ball with nuclear weapons as escalation. Not to mention everybody know you're just buying time to smack France properly, ain't nobody fool to think otherwise. That's def escalation.
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This is not about the propaganda value, but just about the inherent value of human life. Yes, the algerian genocide will be supported by french and american resources, but i am still sad that our actions have created the circumstances where these resources are used to a larger extent.
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[X]Advocate for Accepting the Terms
Eh French are gross and genocidal, any shit pulled is on them and the west. Optics be damned.
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Even if you decide that our only responsibility is to the people of the USSR.
How exactly do you plan to help ash? When this, "we'll be fine" outlook keeps us escalating further and further; What will satisfy you?
Do you want the French on their knees?
Do you want to hear the lamentations of their women?
Do you believe we can ash them first?
When you're done bashing your pride against a wall until you bring down the building, what will you tell the souls you condemned to rubble?
When elephants fight the grass gets trampled.
When those in power make a decision, it's those with none who carry it out and suffer the consequences.
Will you look at the fractured masses that remain and tell them that it was, "for their own good", when they're too busy mourning those lost, and too busy trying to survive the fallout to even listen?
What will satisfy you if the continued life of those you say you serve won't; In search of some promised victory?
How exactly do you plan to help ash? When this, "we'll be fine" outlook keeps us escalating further and further; What will satisfy you?
Do you want the French on their knees?
Do you want to hear the lamentations of their women?
Do you believe we can ash them first?
When you're done bashing your pride against a wall until you bring down the building, what will you tell the souls you condemned to rubble?
When elephants fight the grass gets trampled.
When those in power make a decision, it's those with none who carry it out and suffer the consequences.
Will you look at the fractured masses that remain and tell them that it was, "for their own good", when they're too busy mourning those lost, and too busy trying to survive the fallout to even listen?
What will satisfy you if the continued life of those you say you serve won't; In search of some promised victory?
Red Rationalist
Spinning in eternity
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- Andro-Orlando Hair Saloon
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I agree, but "biding for time" doesn't play hardball with nuclear weapons or actually prepares for a conflict with France (Klim is misreading the prompt IMO and the military is unlikely to actually want that). We are stalling for time there.
I fully admit the description is a bit psychotic, but what we are actually doing is waiting for a bit and insisting on better terms. Which isn't an escalation in itself, since we are presumably telling the US to wait while we are deliberating rather than ghosting them. This attempt at squeezing of the US is still very much a mistake due to emboldening US support for France, but not near the level where we are getting close to a war.