Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Again, NY and LA and Houston and literally any American or Mexican or Canadian city that isn't Chicago has everything they want already, without Big Molly looming over everything.

Most Americans aren't immune to old age and capable of dealing with gunfire. The calculus for risk changes when you're an immortal who has an indefinite life to enjoy so long as you don't screw up.

Molly isn't like Maeve, true. Maeve doesn't give a shit about you consuming a mortal or making them an unwilling thrall. Molly does. Anything less than that isn't worse than what Marcone already does.

Crime will still be there, and probably be worse, if Marcone goes the way of the dinosaurs. I'm not questioning that. I'm just pointing out that supernatural crime won't necessarily get worse without Marcone.

Degorium said:

To be honest as a born American citizen she has more of a right even while being a monarch of a sovereign state to have a voice in US elections then most of the people who have a voice in US elections Those ads don't pay for themselves Mega Corporation despite being literal International entities that are purely focused on profit directly contribute to the coffers of political campaigns. So too be honest we literally could just form a super Pac and pick candidates based on our own Crown questions.

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This would immediately agro the library and most of the other mortal friendly factions. They're not going to buy our benevolent dictatorship.

BronzeTongue said:

This would immediately agro the library and most of the other mortal friendly factions. They're not going to buy our benevolent dictatorship.

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What would they do. It's a serious question what do they do in that situation. Molly Carpenter a 18-year-old college girl has decided I want super liberal politicians in government and I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. What can they do legally against it and what can they do without exploding the fucking masquerade magically against it. We don't have to tell the people that we support that hey we're a magical Queen. We just have to support them and keep them from being sabotaged supernaturally and mundanely whether that's picking people without past histories that might get them in trouble or keeping them from being assassinated.

As long as we don't interfere with the election Beyond commercials and picking candidates that might not have been amazingly popular with either the two mainstream parties what can they do it's not even a case of sour grapes we're an American citizen we have a right to have a voice in the election and to push forward candidates that we believe in.

The Library of Congress unless they're going to actually full on fucking cheat or have a problem with a fair and open election where someone who isn't directly buying into the slowly right shifting Center Line of American politics winning can say nothing and not come off as petulant or shitty or completely undemocratic also they're not the actual government.

Degorium said:

What can they do legally against it and what can they do without exploding the fucking masquerade magically against it.

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Freeze most of her finances and audit all of her firms and initiatives she is sponsoring. Drag the audit out for a couple months until the elections pass.

The way that I would explain Molly's relationship with her clones is to use the example of the Catholic idea of the Trinity expect that there are 5 of us. Because "Anything you can do I can do better. I can do anything better than you"

Edit: I feel compelled to mention that I personally believe that the Trinity idea is absolutely bullshit. Used as way to paper over obvious logical contradictions in the theology. But since Molly and her family are Catholic it should work as an explanation.

Zoolimar said:

Freeze most of her finances and audit all of her firms and initiatives she is sponsoring. Drag the audit out for a couple months until the elections pass.

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Okay which agency is Footing the bill for that one. That's a mega lawsuit. I won't deny they could do that but elections are every 2, 4 and 6 years they can do that once and then face a massive lawsuit that will fund every election for the next 10.

Not only is it not constitutional any Court that fails to uphold the right would essentially be saying it's okay to just freeze political enemies assets which is a no-go. Any Bureau of the government that did that would be facing charges both from above and below in the courts. They would inevitably lose because every super pac in the country works like that you would essentially be saying it's not okay to run ads for politicians which is.... okay.

Then that would essentially be declaring us an enemy for exercising our right as a American citizen and completely overriding Democratic processes in America. Every government branch that saw the ass whooping of whoever did that freeze of assets would immediately stop trusting the Library of Congress. Their credibility would plummet and then we would just fund the next one.

uju32 said:

Because Mortals make the world go around, and supernaturals are drawn to the activity.
They like music and good food and drink and movies and books. There's entire races whose lives revolve around mortal artifice, like the cobs, who basically live for fixing shoes.

Those in crime arent often there for the money; they are there for excitement, power and influence.

Kaiju Molly is just another hazard, and not even a particularly new or dangerous one by the standards of people who used to live with the potential for Maeve or the Leanansidhe walking through.
Especially since Molly is not a particularly homicidal person.

You're basically asking why Americans go to Mexico despite all the drug violence.
Its fun, its profitable.

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Eh most people in crime are in it for financial reasons in real life. Whether to be rich or because they're too poor otherwise. Given it's not like what you mentioned doesn't exist.

We should pretend they're alternative universe versions, like Rick and Morty, and have each act slightly different. Here's Molly Prime, here's Molly C-137, that weirdo is Molly Q-99, etc.

Degorium said:

What would they do. It's a serious question what do they do in that situation. Molly Carpenter a 18-year-old college girl has decided I want super liberal politicians in government and I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. What can they do legally against it and what can they do without exploding the fucking masquerade magically against it. We don't have to tell the people that we support that hey we're a magical Queen. We just have to support them and keep them from being sabotaged supernaturally and mundanely whether that's picking people without past histories that might get them in trouble or keeping them from being assassinated.

As long as we don't interfere with the election Beyond commercials and picking candidates that might not have been amazingly popular with either the two mainstream parties what can they do it's not even a case of sour grapes we're an American citizen we have a right to have a voice in the election and to push forward candidates that we believe in.

The Library of Congress unless they're going to actually full on fucking cheat or have a problem with a fair and open election where someone who isn't directly buying into the slowly right shifting Center Line of American politics winning can say nothing and not come off as petulant or shitty or completely undemocratic also they're not the actual government.

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Their job is to stop supernaturals from doing this regardless of the intent. They've actually managed it credibly well so far. I'm not totally sure what they would do, but that doesn't mean they're going to be incompetent about it and their attempts could cause serious issues.

For example, we could come under near continuous investigation and harassment from legal authorities. Our gem business, and economic games we try to play, whatever assets they can bring to bear against the people around us.

We can do a lot, but it's entirely possible that we'd have to invest so much effort that it cripples out ability to do anything else. Remember that social buffs don't make you god. We're good, but we're not "can be certain of victory at all times against experts on their home ground" good. You dramatically underestimate the difficulties of this kind of operation and the ultimate costs to being so clumsy with it.

We can help the mortal world at large, but it requires careful and systematic change that works with people instead of dictating to them.

BronzeTongue said:

Their job is to stop supernaturals from doing this regardless of the intent. They've actually managed it credibly well so far. I'm not totally sure what they would do, but that doesn't mean they're going to be incompetent about it and their attempts could cause serious issues.

For example, we could come under near continuous investigation and harassment from legal authorities. Our gem business, and economic games we try to play, whatever assets they can bring to bear against the people around us.

We can do a lot, but it's entirely possible that we'd have to invest so much effort that it cripples out ability to do anything else. Remember that social buffs don't make you god. We're good, but we're not "can be certain of victory at all times against experts on their home ground" good. You dramatically underestimate the difficulties of this kind of operation and the ultimate costs to being so clumsy with it.

We can help the mortal world at large, but it requires careful and systematic change that works with people instead of dictating to them.

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Eh while not common I'm fairly sure there are white court with government patsies and red court though especially white court since politics is where they shine. Mind you no supernaturals have anything like a complete monopoly in the United States.

BronzeTongue said:

Their job is to stop supernaturals from doing this regardless of the intent. They've actually managed it credibly well so far. I'm not totally sure what they would do, but that doesn't mean they're going to be incompetent about it and their attempts could cause serious issues.

For example, we could come under near continuous investigation and harassment from legal authorities. Our gem business, and economic games we try to play, whatever assets they can bring to bear against the people around us.

We can do a lot, but it's entirely possible that we'd have to invest so much effort that it cripples out ability to do anything else. Remember that social buffs don't make you god. We're good, but we're not "can be certain of victory at all times against experts on their home ground" good. You dramatically underestimate the difficulties of this kind of operation and the ultimate costs to being so clumsy with it.

We can help the mortal world at large, but it requires careful and systematic change that works with people instead of dictating to them.

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I don't think they have actually. Remember when we asked the crown question about the white court and a suspicious amount of politicians around the world came up including America. The current policies around both drugs and sexual labor and general work policies that leave people out in the cold only benefit the extremely wealthy and people who prey on the extremely poor the fact that those are really tight demographics overlaps is unfortunate but it's hard to believe there's no overlap in a world where exaggerating the problem could allow a couple of extra Reds to eat in a city for years on end.

There's also the fact that we could just ask the Library of Congress before we did anything and they could give us a red lines as I will stay together and I can't actually disallow us. Both on legal and moral and just plain factual grounds. So if they're completely fine with us just acting as normal political Super PAC but with a little bit of Supernatural protection than we're in the clear. If they're completely against us having a voice in government then there's a distinct problem of other actually straight up hostile to normal humans being able to live comfortably Supernatural factions definitely having a voice in government already.

firefrog600 said:

Eh while not common I'm fairly sure there are white court with government patsies and red court though especially white court since politics is where they shine. Mind you no supernaturals have anything like a complete monopoly in the United States.

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Yeah, but my point is that they're evidently pretty good at this even if they aren't perfect. They will have to respond and they aren't going to be ineffectual light weights just because they're mortal.

Degorium said:

I don't think they have actually. Remember when we asked the crown question about the white court and a suspicious amount of politicians around the world came up including America. The current policies around both drugs and sexual labor and general work policies that leave people out in the cold only benefit the extremely wealthy and people who prey on the extremely poor the fact that those are really tight demographics overlaps is unfortunate but it's hard to believe there's no overlap in a world where exaggerating the problem could allow a couple of extra Reds to eat in a city for years on end.

There's also the fact that we could just ask the Library of Congress before we did anything and they could give us a red lines as I will stay together and I can't actually disallow us. Both on legal and moral and just plain factual grounds. So if they're completely fine with us just acting as normal political Super PAC but with a little bit of Supernatural protection than we're in the clear. If they're completely against us having a voice in government then there's a distinct problem of other actually straight up hostile to normal humans being able to live comfortably Supernatural factions definitely having a voice in government already.

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Rich people playing money games don't have an active and enthusiastic regular looking to stop them from doing corrupt stuff to the government. As a supernatural we do.

We should work with them to make things better, but I don't expect it to be that simple.

On an OOC level it's also probably not a great idea to get in the trenches of mortal politics outside of where it intersects with the urban fantasy stuff. Cuts down on the potential for thread explosions.

We have plenty of work to do that doesn't really involve this that needs done anyway.

BronzeTongue said:

I'm familiar with the levels here, I just thing your read of this citation ties itself in knots to make it say something other than what it says:

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I remember the quote, and I think we have had the same discussion before.

Similar to. Not the same as.
If they were the same, or even analogous, they'd just be the same tier of power.
Just like an army lieutenant colonel would be the same tier of seniority as an air force wing commander

But I dont suppose we'll agree about this.

BronzeTongue said:

On a power level similar to Uriel has one reasonable interpretation; their abilities are close enough in strength to make the comparison reasonable.

The question that got this answer was about pure ability and not role. It unambiguously puts the major Outer Knights at the archangel level.
Evil Uriel with even weirder rules than normal is the exact level to prep for.

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Evil Uriel who is free to act on the planet is not a soluble problem. Even for an Exalt.
For example, the only rebel archangel we know of is Lucifer, and dude is so dangerous he is locked up in Hell.
Nemesis is running around jumping into people's heads.

Better to prepare for problems we can do shit about.

firefrog600 said:

Eh most people in crime are in it for financial reasons in real life. Whether to be rich or because they're too poor otherwise. Given it's not like what you mentioned doesn't exist.

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Not RL though.

When you are a mid- or high-ranking supernatural, the incentive structure is different.
Just a little of the White Court whammy is enough to make any Whampire a very successful salesman and businessman. But a lot of them still seek other shit.

For example, the White Court control most of the porn studios, and yet Lord Raith found it necessary to ruin one independent director's production.
Not for profit, but power.

Madrigal Raith was a successful independent horror director, who was rich and comfortable, and came from a rich family.
But he attacked and tried to sell Dresden on Ebay.
Not because he needed the money, but for clout.

Degorium said:

What would they do.

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Legal harassment of Molly's mortal-facing interests. Legal investigations, newspaper probes etc.
Ask the Church to intervene. Or the White Council. Or Odin.
Do a deal with a major demon, or a Yama King, or Winter, or some other entity for support.

They didnt survive two hundred years without being savvy.

uju32 said:

Legal harassment of Molly's mortal-facing interests. Legal investigations, newspaper probes etc.
Ask the Church to intervene. Or the White Council. Or Odin.
Do a deal with a major demon, or a Yama King, or Winter, or some other entity for support.

They didnt survive two hundred years without being savvy.

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But why would they do this by going so far into the deep end and dealing with beings that they know are totally evil and untrustworthy beings to get support against Molly, who up until now has only had controllable and neutral relationships with them while still leaving proxy of the court white and red, in addition to other supernatural interests within politics?

On top of that we would be acting like just another super PAC throwing money at our chosen candidate. They would act if they had strong suspicions that we were trying to control the entire government, but if it was just a few candidates they would just look a little closer.

I honestly think that their goal is not really to expel all supernaturals from politics (an impossible task and one that they really should have known failed a long time ago, perhaps since the declaration of independence) but rather to prevent one side from fully controlling the government and punish their obvious effort of a lot of magic against common candidates

Come on Team Sandstrike Blast!

uju32 said:

They didnt survive two hundred years without being savvy.

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The Church, the White Council, Odin, Winter, Summer, none of them would side with the Library over Molly.

And asking for help from demons is not the move of a savvy operator.

TheGrape said:

The Church, the White Council, Odin, Winter, Summer, none of them would side with the Library over Molly.

And asking for help from demons is not the move of a savvy operator.

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Especially when she's kind of their ally and really hasn't done or would do anything that an ordinary, albeit rich, human can't.

uju32 said:

I remember the quote, and I think we have had the same discussion before.

Similar to. Not the same as.
If they were the same, or even analogous, they'd just be the same tier of power.
Just like an army lieutenant colonel would be the same tier of seniority as an air force wing commander

But I dont suppose we'll agree about this

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Phil and Ted have similar weights means that they're pretty close to each other. I genuinely don't understand how this statement could be read any other way.

uju32 said:

Evil Uriel who is free to act on the planet is not a soluble problem. Even for an Exalt.
For example, the only rebel archangel we know of is Lucifer, and dude is so dangerous he is locked up in Hell.
Nemesis is running around jumping into people's heads.

Better to prepare for problems we can do shit about.

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He's got to scale opposition and weird rules of his own to follow. Which is why he's beatable at all.

Azais said:

On top of that we would be acting like just another super PAC throwing money at our chosen candidate. They would act if they had strong suspicions that we were trying to control the entire government, but if it was just a few candidates they would just look a little closer.

I honestly think that their goal is not really to expel all supernaturals from politics (an impossible task and one that they really should have known failed a long time ago, perhaps since the declaration of independence) but rather to prevent one side from fully controlling the government and punish their obvious effort of a lot of magic against common candidates

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They're going to keep out what they can. Supernaturals in politics face more dedicated opposition than rich people do.

TheGrape said:

The Church, the White Council, Odin, Winter, Summer, none of them would side with the Library over Molly.

And asking for help from demons is not the move of a savvy operator.

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Any level of dedicated investigation could effectively ban us from mortal facing business.

Play this out like you're in their shoes, without the obligatory "I'd realize the PC is great and do what they say" stuff. Making your best possible effort what would you attempt? How much of our time and energy would it take to contest? How many opportunities would it lock out?

My starting point would be audits of every business we're associated with and penalty investigations into anyone who works with us on the mundane side. Our money supply is dependent on not being looked at too closely, they could boot us back to resources 0 in a business day. We'd get it back, but how many AP do you want to spend in court over the next few IC years? You can't stab enough people to make that go away.

Given this kind of opposition my general play would be cut from that same cloth. If I can't burn someone's HLs, go for their resources dots and AP. Spread it everywhere so that dealing with one source doesn't give you access to others. Stir shit, spread rumors, hell start construction work on their commute so they have to spend an extra 20 minutes driving around every morning just to annoy them.

Even if we take all that and keep coming it torches our ability to productively engage with mortal society and any sort of cooperation for a long time.

BronzeTongue said:

Phil and Ted have similar weights means that they're pretty close to each other. I genuinely don't understand how this statement could be read any other way.



He's got to scale opposition and weird rules of his own to follow. Which is why he's beatable at all.

They're going to keep out what they can. Supernaturals in politics face more dedicated opposition than rich people do.



Any level of dedicated investigation could effectively ban us from mortal facing business.

Play this out like you're in their shoes, without the obligatory "I'd realize the PC is great and do what they say" stuff. Making your best possible effort what would you attempt? How much of our time and energy would it take to contest? How many opportunities would it lock out?

My starting point would be audits of every business we're associated with and penalty investigations into anyone who works with us on the mundane side. Our money supply is dependent on not being looked at too closely, they could boot us back to resources 0 in a business day. We'd get it back, but how many AP do you want to spend in court over the next few IC years? You can't stab enough people to make that go away.

Given this kind of opposition my general play would be cut from that same cloth. If I can't burn someone's HLs, go for their resources dots and AP. Spread it everywhere so that dealing with one source doesn't give you access to others. Stir shit, spread rumors, hell start construction work on their commute so they have to spend an extra 20 minutes driving around every morning just to annoy them.

Even if we take all that and keep coming it torches our ability to productively engage with mortal society and any sort of cooperation for a long time.

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Again I don't think they actually do that they're not actually the police that's their whole bit and they're not actually that serious. Never mind the fact that everything you described is illegal and we have ways to find out the those phenomenons are happening and find the paper trail for them being initiated. It might take AP but it takes money to be doing illegal shit like that and it's in a legal system that is still primed towards capitalists and moneyed interest not having their rights stifled like that. Everything you were describing if it happened and we could prove it's happening would get every single agency law enforcement and construction company sued into Oblivion because that means they're one breaking the law to intimidating clinical opponents three outright blocking the citizen from engaging in a democracy.

No legally operating body could do that and expect not to be sued immediately. They can make all the Audits and claims they want but the second they're over and found fraudulent and they would be found fraudulent because an audit means that you can hire an audit team to help you and if you can't hire an auditing you can get some other financial assistance to hire someone to go over the audit with you. Not to mention they would be auditing a business ran by one young woman who Innovative way to create diamonds kind of fast and a rich white male Scion of a multi-million dollar family.

This again assumes that they just don't have a policy for how much we can be a part of a political system that we have a inborn right as an American citizen to be a part of. Unless you're saying they just bar Wizards and minor talents from voting or having political careers.

Honestly I can fully believe it if their policy was if you don't do anything Supernatural go nuts at that point you're just another Rich idiot go ahead.

Political candidates just exist and they have platforms and reforms that they want to run finding a proper candidate that has a history of either running or generally being in the public sphere is not difficult. They would have to bar other people that have just as much right to be a part of political system as well from running just because they have our support which yet again is illegal and very traceable Behavior.

I get what you're talking about protagonist centered morality or Sway and influence, but I'm not joking and they are not the police in any sense not of magic users not of the American public they purely stick to a consultancy roll they don't decide who gets to be in the government or who gets to run for government also I'm unsure they could sway any actual legal agency to openly break the law in the manner that you are suggesting. They don't seem to be particularly well liked by the FBI which is not a good place to be if you're trying to domestically break the law.

BronzeTongue said:

Phil and Ted have similar weights means that they're pretty close to each other. I genuinely don't understand how this statement could be read any other way.



He's got to scale opposition and weird rules of his own to follow. Which is why he's beatable at all.

They're going to keep out what they can. Supernaturals in politics face more dedicated opposition than rich people do.



Any level of dedicated investigation could effectively ban us from mortal facing business.

Play this out like you're in their shoes, without the obligatory "I'd realize the PC is great and do what they say" stuff. Making your best possible effort what would you attempt? How much of our time and energy would it take to contest? How many opportunities would it lock out?

My starting point would be audits of every business we're associated with and penalty investigations into anyone who works with us on the mundane side. Our money supply is dependent on not being looked at too closely, they could boot us back to resources 0 in a business day. We'd get it back, but how many AP do you want to spend in court over the next few IC years? You can't stab enough people to make that go away.

Given this kind of opposition my general play would be cut from that same cloth. If I can't burn someone's HLs, go for their resources dots and AP. Spread it everywhere so that dealing with one source doesn't give you access to others. Stir shit, spread rumors, hell start construction work on their commute so they have to spend an extra 20 minutes driving around every morning just to annoy them.

Even if we take all that and keep coming it torches our ability to productively engage with mortal society and any sort of cooperation for a long time.

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Yeah? I was addressing the other more direct methods which wouldn't work.

This is the only way that would work, but it really only serves to annoy Molly and inconvenience her. Worst come to worst she can just move to Canada and get her hooks into the mortal world from there. Or directly retaliate and ruin the Library with her own rumors, connections, intelligence, and even direct violence. She isn't just gonna sit there and take it; Molly can act of her own accord and retaliate y'know.

Lash really is the perfect counterbalance for all the worst and most self-sabotaging parts of Harry. I'm sorry, Molly, but I think those two are already married in the eyes of God.

There are points to be made regarding practically any action but Harry... well, he is way too attached to the idea of grumbling loudly while sitting on a very uncomfortable fence. He doesn't want to be on either side of it but just staying there is the worst of both options. She is entirely correct in telling him to shit or get off the pot.

I don't particularly care about Marcone. He could be removed, he could be dealt with or "dealt" with, he could be defused, he could be counterbalanced, he could be bought, he could be conquered. He could be handled by just saying we can try to ignore one another. He isn't a particularly large blight considering some of the entities and organizations on our speed dial list. White Court, Red Court when they bother with diplomacy, a goddamn Naagloshi who we may or may not owe a missed Christmas present depending on if those bracers count. When pretty much everybody you know has a history of eating people... eh, it kind of makes his sins look less impressive. Play it by ear?

But complaining about something and not doing something about it deserves an eye roll.

BronzeTongue said:

Yeah, but my point is that they're evidently pretty good at this even if they aren't perfect. They will have to respond and they aren't going to be ineffectual light weights just because they're mortal.


Rich people playing money games don't have an active and enthusiastic regular looking to stop them from doing corrupt stuff to the government. As a supernatural we do.

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Not to put to fine a point on it but Molly is really beneath the notice of the Library of Congress when the known amount of money spent on legal lobbing is 3.47 billion in 2009. And untold amount of unreported, and illegal money. Molly is a full 3 zeros away from being relevant in politics minimum, 5 zeros to be an actual player.

Funnily just one or two charm buys and Molly becomes basically inviolable to politics. I know there's a charm or something that basically makes it so one can't look too hard at things and other stuff. It'd probably be super irresponsible but the idea of it's pretty funny.

Earth-Destroyer said:

Molly is a full 3 zeros away from being relevant in politics minimum, 5 zeros to be an actual player.

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In Earth money you mean.

BronzeTongue said:

Those rulings basically solve my issues as long as passives covers possession. Though I'm curious if that extends to our permanent effects.

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Only if they include perfect defenses against any sort of possession, mind-control, body-jacking, mind-modification, or mind-reading. Remember what we're dealing with here.
If we fuck this up we are basically handing Nemesis one or more of our clones on a silver platter, with everything that that entails (knowledge, foci for curses, potentially being able to wring Infernal Charms out of them (yes, they normally can't use active charms themselves, but I would not put it past Nemesis to figure out some sort of end-run), potential shenanigans using our body/appearance, potentially using the captured clone body as a vector through which to attack the FFCF, I could go on.)

Yes, Nemesis is limited in how they can act on Earth, but that wouldn't necessarily stop them dragging a clone Molly back Outside to reverse-engineer where Uriel & co. can't stop it.

BronzeTongue said:

The question that got this answer was about pure ability and not role. It unambiguously puts the major Outer Knights at the archangel level.

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We also don't know how much other stuff is lurking around out there, and whether or not some of it is potentially as strong or even far stronger than these. They could well call upon far greater powers to crack open and reverse engineer a captured Molly!clone, and I don't want to think about what an outsider-made army of jailbroken Infernal clones, off-brand or not, could do to the setting.