Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

I do not understand the system: Can you give me a (mostly) fair breakdown of the difference between the two plans? (And banking XP on Olivia is not helping your plan IMO; at least without a reason as to why)
I'll try. This are differences, I am not touching on stuff that's identical in both plans.

1) Olivia. Uju is banking her xp while they work out and get a better handle on Olivia's build in order not to screw it up. I buy fae and human countervailing (stuff I expect her to run in the mot in Chicago when operating on her own), and increase her Psychoportation, allowing her to teleport farther, which is very useful in urban environment and as a core part of her sniper build

2) Lydia. Uju is getting her antifae counterspelling, as she had concerning interactions with Mother Winter. I am getting her antighost and spirit countermagic, as ghosts are the type of being she runs most into.
Uju buys Lydia ox body 4 and a combat art increase, focusing this update on her fighting capability. I buy her Wots excellency, as Wits is the attribute used in counterspelling, and the charm that allows her to instantly get information from sources she has access to (such as libraries). I plan to focus on personal combat next turn with her.

3) Tiffany. Uju gets her countermagic for spirit stuff, with an argument that this should help against denarians, something which is being disputed at the moment, as I understand it (personal opinion - denarian magi falls under human magic and angelic non-magic abilities), as well as aptitude for occult. I instead give her a universal translator that is an obvious effect with damage like SCCP.

4) Molly. Uju adds more health to Molly with another ox body, increases her speed by a factor of two, gives her a magical long range weapon (not perfect, not a key ability, not physical, does lethal damage), and gets her countermagic against vampire magic. I give her shadow spite curse - a charm that removes dice from actions of Molly's target, and two custom charm from the homebrew charmset I have developed. One charm gives Molly gamelike inventory, allowing her to digitize mundane objects, and later retrieve them (digitizing costs essence, retrieval is free), and the other allows Molly to summon holographic replicas of her minions. At e4 she'll be able to make them corporeal by paying additional essence.
 
Shadow Spite Curse is nice mostly because it means that Molly always has something useful to do. It's a really flexible charm.
 
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Yes.
This is an E4 Solaroid investing Essence in her own magical clone/doppelganger.
I expect them to be particularly compatible, and to express that accordingly.

Remember: in origin, Garou/Fera Gifts are GIFTS.
They are taught/bestowed by others to/on the shapeshifters.
By Spirits of appropriate theme and power.

Which we are not.
Infernals have never and could never bestow their Charms on mortals, that's not what they do, fundamentally.

If there's one thing gods can do easier (in Exalted) than most Exalted it's blessing mortals.
 
This are differences, I am not touching on stuff that's identical in both plans.
Mind mentioning why you chose those things over what uju did too?

Responding (not in order)...
Occult Aptitude(Ability Aptitude: Occult) which makes counterspelling easier by reducing the DC.
Isn't the "don't buy innate stuff after char creation" a valid argument though?

...we have the Crown for that, no?

Doesn't MHM work at arbitary speed/range already? Or am I misunderstanding mechanics?

Sounds like something that could be really useful, if we pay the Essence cost beforehand tbh; though I don't get the minion escape charm at all

Its not a charm we need this turn. We're not going looking for Nemesis this turn.
And we arent yet at the point where we can survive the sort of heat we are risking there; if Nemesis or a Great Walker pulls a Cold Days in response, we're not really equipped for it.
Agreed, pending further use-case specifications.

I give her more Occult
Agreed x2: More Occult dots is surely a good thing in Dresdenverse?

universal translator for mortals
Isn't that really good for Diplomacy which also helps in follow up from this Arc, and ensures Molly doesn't have to burn Essence on SCCP?

Yog chose to invest instead in her teleportation. Not sure why.
Mobility for a Sniper seems hilariously important (although dealing with her Yes rate of WP expenditure also matters)?
 
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Shadow Spite Curse is nice mostly because it means that Molly always has something useful to do.
Molly has never been short of things to do.
Sitting around to harass people really isnt it. Especially when they simply invest in defenses against this sort of thing materially impeding them.

The primary use of this thing is outing Nemesis.
I cant think of any other entity that can simultaneously possess multiple people.
Great, but not something we can exactly spam. Nor is it something that we can leverage by recklessly spamming it.

By Spirits of appropriate theme and power.
Which we are not.
Infernals have never and could never bestow their Charms on mortals, that's not what they do, fundamentally.
If there's one thing gods can do easier (in Exalted) than most Exalted it's blessing mortals.
Shifters learn from spirits and from other shifters.
Bastet/Cat shifters will literally copy your Gifts by watching you use them.

Infernals have always been able to awake powers in people.
In 2E it was primarily through Locust Mana Plague IIRC; here its by awakening your shadow or using VEE.
And if we were a Solar, we'd literally just make them Mages with a one-hour speech.
 
Yog does not do this. I think this is an egregious omission
I don't do this because I am firmly of the opinion that this should be an AP thing.
Its not a charm we need this turn. We're not going looking for Nemesis this turn
the functionality of SSC is not limited to Nemesis. In the event of a confrontation with Peabody, for example, I expect it to be very useful.

Yog doesnt think she needs more range or speed or health.
Not immediately, no. Except range, which I cover with the inventory charm
He spends 8XP on two homebrew charms. One for a inventory charm, and the other for a hologram minion charm.
I've criticized them as unbalanced before both mechanically and narratively, but I didnt have the spare time and effort to do a full breakdown for them like I did for the first one. The hologram charm is particularly unnecessary.
I welcome all input on the homebrew stuff, and have previously messaged you about this. Hologram charm is particularly useful, I feel, as it provides us with safely disposable scouts, advisors and experts on demand.

The inventory charm is of too great utility not to take, if it's allowed.
Yog does not invest in Lydia's combat ability at all. He chooses to invest in utility.
Akashic Method is a great charm, which helps you retrieve information that isnt hidden as long as you have access to a library/the internet/an expert. But its not an immediate priority right now.

And the Wits Excellency is frankly unnecessary IMO, for someone with as little Essence as Lydia, and who doesnt regen like Molly does out of combat. IMO.
I have a different approach to combat for Lydia than Uju. I think that Lydia is firmly a summoner / minion controller. She has a lot of charms speckled for this already, and can get more later. I also disagree on the issue of essence economy, despite having a smaller pool, experience shows that Lydia suffers from empty mote pool less than Molly, and she has a jade talisman already.

I agree that getting a direct combat upgrade is a good idea, but I don't think it's immediately required.

Isn't the "don't buy innate stuff after char creation" a valid argument though?
I think it is, and has given quotes from gamebooks on the subject before. It might be appropriate with specific in-game events, like Lash making a deal with Lydia, but otherwise I dislike this.
...we have the Crown for that, no?
We do, but akashic methodology doesn't burn foci, which is important, as Lydia can learn stuff to help us ask better questions.
 
Especially when they simply invest in defenses against this sort of thing materially impeding them.
I would like to see these costless defenses that everyone will be able to get. Even Molly would have to spend a mote. Assuming of course that they realize what is happening. Bad luck can be hard to spot.
 
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Molly is a player, but its a big pond, and she's only one of several people with an interest in the city.
Winter is here. Summer is here. The Svartalfar are here. The White Court is here. There's at least one demigod I know of in the city right now keeping a moderately low profile.
Sounds like we should get the city itself on our side. We've talked about raising a city-god, and we should progress on that idea.
 
Isn't the "don't buy innate stuff after char creation" a valid argument though?
No it isnt.
See all the innate Merits that Lydia bought after her Pact with Lash gave her extra freebie points to spend.

Agreed x2: More Occult dots is surely a good thing in Dresdenverse?
Oh yes.
Ideally everyone would max out their Occult; at a minimum you want Occult 3.

Isn't that really good for Diplomacy which also helps in follow up from this Arc, and ensures Molly doesn't have to burn Essence on SCCP?
This arc is going to be mostly at home, in and around Chicago.
Where everyone speaks English.
Hence I dont think its an immediate priority, even without the pressing need to buff Lash's survivability.

Mobility for a Sniper seems hilariously important (although dealing with her Yes rate of WP expenditure also matters)?
This was a point of contention before I took a break.

But in precis form:
She is a gunman. Short to medium range weapon use. Snipers typically work at 300-600m range, out to a thousand meters or more. Sightlines arent that clear in cities, and were never going to be. So while she can in theory, she cant in practice.
In combat, you dont want to split the party either, so she was never going to even try.

And with the new environmental trick that Mikaboshi just showed us about laying down global debuffs, Im even more worried about the prospects of catastrophic botching for anyone trying to use Path sorcery to teleport in a serious fight.

I mean, River Shoulders shut down Drakul's teleports in Battle Grounds, and Drakul is a peer of Mab.
Olivia is really, really not.
 
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Shifters learn from spirits and from other shifters.
Bastet/Cat shifters will literally copy your Gifts by watching you use them.

Infernals have always been able to awake powers in people.
In 2E it was primarily through Locust Mana Plague IIRC; here its by awakening your shadow or using VEE.
And if we were a Solar, we'd literally just make them Mages with a one-hour speech.
Look, you are already stretching our Formor Charms beyond what they are meant to be by even making custom Formor at all, then you are stretching it again by making effectively Formarchs instead of regular shit-tier mooks as the Charms was meant to make, but also adding the ability to give high-tier Werewolf Gifts to our Formor is simply absurd.
 
I think that Lydia is firmly a summoner / minion controller.
Im even more worried about the prospects of catastrophic botching for anyone trying to use Path sorcery to teleport in a serious fight
...In that case, which part of this requires teleportation in lieu of better Occult?

In the event of a confrontation with Peabody, for example, I expect it to be very useful.
Mind elaborating on how?

Lydia can learn stuff to help us ask better questions
Doesn't that require capital letter AP or small letter narrative AP though, or do you think that cost doesn't matter?

This arc is going to be mostly at home, in and around Chicago.
Where everyone speaks English.
Hence I dont think its an immediate priority, even without the pressing need to buff Lash's survivability.
Makes sense, but since the alternative is getting an Innate Merit outside of Special Circumstances...

I don't do this because I am firmly of the opinion that this should be an AP thing.
If the QM is ok with this, I don't see the problem? Especially given how there are apparently deliberately no AP options to specify how other parties spend their time (on your behalf) so...

(The Minion Charm seems a bit too broken, but the Inventory Charm seems pretty reasonable IMO)
 
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And people have to stop thinking that creating exaltations is easy. Can anyone explain to me what happened with this change? Before, Exaltations were unique miracles created by greatest of all craftsmen with the essence of the greatest gods, so perfect that not even time could diminish them and whose copying was impossible, now if we believe in these statements, every type of god, King Yama, minor spirit and fairy can snap their fingers and make new ones?
There are different kinds of Exaltations but the one we care for in this case are Exigents - a god or other powerful entity pouring a good chunk of their powers and essence into a mortal thus giving them powers. Normally you can have only one Exigent per god and it costs a lot to create them. To the point that it can kill the god in question.

Power of the Exigent Exalt is only partially reliant on the power of the god and is highly circumstantial. There is a known example of a random field god creating a Celestial level Exalt and dying in the process.

Lydia is an Exigent Exalt of Arawn.

Gods create Exigents because they are not subject to many limitations gods themselves operate under. It's especially relevant in Dresden Files where most immortal beings are shackled by dozens of rules and must respect mortal free will to an extent. Though it seems a critical part of Exaltation is preservation of the free will of the mortal it is bestowed upon. So while you can choose the right mortal you can't remove their ability to disagree with you later.

If Nemesis or a Walker decide to risk it and create an Exaltation I'd expect them to create some weird mix between a Raksha and a Sidereal.
 
Doesn't that require capital letter AP or small letter narrative AP though, or do you think that cost doesn't matter?
Smal, letter narrative actions, certainly, but in general it greatly expands her information gathering capability, making her even more capable of independent operation (she is doing a lot of stuff in background, and I wish to help with that).
Mind elaborating on how?
Wizard magic, from what I understand, doesn't roll massive dice pools. Ssc is a very good sabotage tool, and a not bad defense tool, especially since it can be used in defense of others in conjunction with their counterspelling.

This was a point of contention before I took a break.

But in precis form:
She is a gunman. Short to medium range weapon use. Snipers typically work at 300-600m range, out to a thousand meters or more. Sightlines arent that clear in cities, and were never going to be. So while she can in theory, she cant in practice.
In combat, you dont want to split the party either, so she was never going to even try.

And with the new environmental trick that Mikaboshi just showed us about laying down global debuffs, Im even more worried about the prospects of catastrophic botching for anyone trying to use Path sorcery to teleport in a serious fight.

I mean, River Shoulders shut down Drakul's teleports in Battle Grounds, and Drakul is a peer of Mab.
Olivia is really, really not.
And yet, her build worked quite well when dealing with the akuma on her own.
This arc is going to be mostly at home, in and around Chicago.
Where everyone speaks English.
Hence I dont think its an immediate priority, even without the pressing need to buff Lash's survivability.
We have at least two things that are going to be placed outside of USA: containing abyssal exaltation shard as part of dealing with the solar one (because it absolutely cannot be left to its own devices), and getting Lydia her magic dog (which is likely to take place in primarily old Welsh speaking parts of NeverNever). I would prefer to have Lash for both of those.
Sounds like we should get the city itself on our side. We've talked about raising a city-god, and we should progress on that idea.
I am planning on doing that, and reinforcing Last Station next month.
 
Ok... on balance after the listed arguments I still prefer Yog's plan, on the condition that we spend some of Molly's XP on buying Lydia Occult 2 now and/or more Mentor dots now?

The Hologram Minion Charm really sounds like a bit much though... better read up the fine details in a bit
(The XP totals in said plan don't seem to quite add up here; unless Banked XP is not explicitly mentioned?)

Edit:
mechanically they receive half the experience their shadows got.
Upon reaching essence 4, the infernal gains an option to harden the light the servants are woven from to grant them material bodies by paying 1 additional essence per hardlight summon.
YEAH NO WAY THIS IS A 1 DOT CHARM :p
 
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If Nemesis or a Walker decide to risk it and create an Exaltation I'd expect them to create some weird mix between a Raksha and a Sidereal.
Possible, but Nemesis would permanently dimish itself and in exchange get a mortal agent who is new to his powers, not yet skilled or experienced and most critically might not be interested in doing Nemesis' will.
And can't be forced to, since most Exaltations have a mental defense that works even against that thing.

So it would be a bad investment.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Anaja on Jun 5, 2024 at 3:24 AM, finished with 609 posts and 29 votes.

  • [X] Plan: courtly debut v2
    -[X] Molly, 37 XP
    --[X]Splintered Gale Incarnation: 20xp
    --[X] Counterspell: Human, 3 XP
    --[X] Emergency Minion Hologram, 4 XP
    --[X] Digital Possessions Management, 4XP
    --[X] Shadow Spite Curse (••), 6 XP
    -[X] Lydia, 12 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Spirit, 3 XP
    --[X] Excellency: Wits, 3 XP
    --[X] Akashic Root Methodology (••), 6 XP
    -[X] Lash, 12 XP
    --[X] Lore of Humanity 1, 7 XP
    --[X] Lore of Light 2. 5 XP
    --[X]Investment: Fomor Power: Numbing 1: +3HL + wound penalty negation [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 6: Regrowth: [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 5: Soak Aggravated Damage [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    -[X] Olivia, 12 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Fae, 3 XP
    --[X] Psychoportation 3, 6 XP
    [X]Plan Shadow Clones
    -[X]Molly: 40xp
    --[X]Splintered Gale Incarnation: 20xp
    --[X]Sandstrike Blast: 8xp
    --[X]Countermagic 2/4(Human + Vampire): 6xp
    --[X]Ox-Body Technique 3: 3xp
    --[X]By Rage Recast 3: Swift Stride: 3xp
    --[X]Lash raise Stamina to 5
    --[X]Remaining Bank: 1xp
    -[X]Lash: 11xp
    --[X]Investment: Fomor Power: Numbing 1: +3HL + wound penalty negation [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 6: Regrowth: [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 5: Soak Aggravated Damage [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Lore of Light 2: Bend Light: 5 XP
    --[X]Occult Aptitude: 3XP
    --[X]Countermagic 1/4(Spirit): 3xp
    -[X]Lydia: 11xp + Molly 1
    --[X]Occult 2: 2xp
    --[X]Ox-Body 4: 3xp
    --[X]Devil Fighter/Mo Kung 2: Dragon Speed: 4xp
    --[X]Countermagic 1/4 (Fae): 3xp
    -[X]Olivia: 11xp
    --[X]Bank XP
    [X]Plan Organizations, Pro and Con
    -[X]Molly: 40xp
    --[X]Splintered Gale Incarnation: 20xp
    --[X]Endless Torment Emanation: 12xp
    --[X]Countermagic 2/4(Human + Vampire): 6xp
    --[X]Lash raise Stamina to 5
    --[X]Bank 2 xp
    -[X]Lash: 11xp
    --[X]Investment: Fomor Power: Numbing 1: +3HL + wound penalty negation [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 6: Regrowth: [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 5: Soak Aggravated Damage [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Lore of Light 2: Bend Light: 5 XP
    --[X]Occult Aptitude: 3XP
    --[X]Countermagic 1/4(Spirit): 3xp
    -[X]Lydia: 11xp + Molly 1
    --[X]Occult 2: 2xp
    --[X]Ox-Body 4: 3xp
    --[X]Devil Fighter/Mo Kung 2: Dragon Speed: 4xp
    --[X]Countermagic 1/4 (Fae): 3xp
    -[X]Olivia: 11xp
    --[X]Bank XP
    [X] Plan Rounding out and Clones
    -[X] Molly (41 XP) 1 XP Banked
    --[X] Increase Craft to 5 Dots (4 XP)
    --[X] Increase Academics to 2 Dots (2 XP)
    --[X] Increase Leadership to 4 Dots (3 XP)
    --[X] Increase Alchemy to 5 Dot (12 XP)
    --[X] Buy Mana Manipulation to 3 Dots (7 XP)
    --[X]Splintered Gale Incarnation: 20xp
    --[X]Lash raise Stamina to 5
    -[X]Lash: 11xp
    --[X]Investment: Fomor Power: Numbing 1: +3HL + wound penalty negation [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 6: Regrowth: [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 5: Soak Aggravated Damage [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Lore of Light 2: Bend Light: 5 XP
    --[X]Occult Aptitude: 3XP
    --[X]Countermagic 1/4(Spirit): 3xp
    -[X]Lydia: 11xp + Molly 1
    --[X]Occult 2: 2xp
    --[X]Ox-Body 4: 3xp
    --[X]Devil Fighter/Mo Kung 2: Dragon Speed: 4xp
    --[X]Countermagic 1/4 (Fae): 3xp
    -[X]Olivia: 11xp
    --[X]Bank XP
    [X] Plan Combat not important
    -[X]Molly 42 XP spent
    --[X]Splintered Gale Incarnation: 20xp
    --[X]Verdant Emptiness Endowment (•••••) 20 XP
    --[X] Prayer Eating (•) 2XP
    -[X]Lydia 9 Xp spent and 2 XP banked
    --[X]Occult 2: 2xp
    --[X]Ox-Body 4: 3xp
    --[X]Devil Fighter/Mo Kung 2: Dragon Speed: 4xp
    -[X]Lash: 10xp spent 1 XP banked
    --[X] Buy down permeant torment by 1. 10 XP
    -[X]Olivia: 9xp bank 2 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Human, 3 XP
    --[X] Psychoportation 3, 6 XP
    [X] Plan Do Stuff
    -[X] Molly, 38 XP
    --[X]Splintered Gale Incarnation: 20xp
    --[X] Principle Invoking Onslaught (•••), 12 XP
    --[X] Shadow Spite Curse (••), 6 XP
    -[X] Lydia, 12 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Spirit, 3 XP
    --[X] Excellency: Wits, 3 XP
    --[X] Akashic Root Methodology (••), 6 XP
    -[X] Lash, 12 XP
    --[X] Lore of Humanity 1, 7 XP
    --[X] Lore of Light 2. 5 XP
    -[X] Olivia, 12 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Human, 3 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Fae, 3 XP
    --[X] Psychoportation 3, 6 XP
    [X] Plan: courtly debut v1
    -[X] Molly, 38 XP
    --[X]Splintered Gale Incarnation: 20xp
    --[X] Treading the Golden Path, 4 XP
    --[X] Five Paths, One Ring, 4 XP
    --[X] Digital Possessions Management, 4XP
    --[X] Shadow Spite Curse (••), 6 XP
    -[X] Lydia, 12 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Spirit, 3 XP
    --[X] Excellency: Wits, 3 XP
    --[X] Akashic Root Methodology (••), 6 XP
    -[X] Lash, 12 XP
    --[X] Lore of Humanity 1, 7 XP
    --[X] Lore of Light 2. 5 XP
    --[X]Investment: Fomor Power: Numbing 1: +3HL + wound penalty negation [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 6: Regrowth: [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 5: Soak Aggravated Damage [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    -[X] Olivia, 12 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Human, 3 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Fae, 3 XP
    --[X] Psychoportation 3, 6 XP
    [X] Abstain
 
I don't do this because I am firmly of the opinion that this should be an AP thing.
And like I said, we dont control the AP of the other members of our party during the turn.
This is the ONLY time we get to give anyone instructions when we arent on missions.

the functionality of SSC is not limited to Nemesis. In the event of a confrontation with Peabody, for example, I expect it to be very useful.
I dont expect it to.
It only lasts a turn.

Not immediately, no. Except range, which I cover with the inventory charm
Like I said, the inventory charm is narratively and mechanically broken.
One of those things that breaks the storytelling contract between players and QM IMO.

I welcome all input on the homebrew stuff, and have previously messaged you about this. Hologram charm is particularly useful, I feel, as it provides us with safely disposable scouts, advisors and experts on demand.
The inventory charm is of too great utility not to take, if it's allowed.
Remember when I said Can =/=Should? Thats particularly true with regards to the inventory charm.

I have a different approach to combat for Lydia than Uju. I think that Lydia is firmly a summoner / minion controller. She has a lot of charms speckled for this already, and can get more later. I also disagree on the issue of essence economy, despite having a smaller pool, experience shows that Lydia suffers from empty mote pool less than Molly, and she has a jade talisman already.

I agree that getting a direct combat upgrade is a good idea, but I don't think it's immediately required.
The lady's combat charms are all Brawl charms.
And her summons are objectively shit; the golems are modelled on zombies, and the one spirit summon was benchmarked to Inugami(dog zombie), which in Gods and Monsters, and they dont have much to recommend them.

They are meant to provide some disposable meashields not to actually provide serious combat power.
Look, you are already stretching our Formor Charms beyond what they are meant to be by even making custom Formor at all, then you are stretching it again by making effectively Formarchs instead of regular shit-tier mooks as the Charms was meant to make, but also adding the ability to give high-tier Werewolf Gifts to our Formor is simply absurd.
They arent meant to provide shit-tier mooks.
Usable minions, not shit tier mooks.
And fomorachs were always an option for some of them.

If anyone was actually worried about that, we'd have harder limits on the inhabitants of our Hell and their capabilities.
At the point where you're calling on arch sorcerers and power-armored dragon men for combat deployment because we bought King and Kingdom, you long gave up any worries about that.

...In that case, which part of this requires teleportation in lieu of better Occult?
Maybe Im getting brain fog, but I dont understand the question.

Makes sense, but since the alternative is getting an Innate Merit outside of Special Circumstances...
Merits are Merits.
Some games allow you to buy them, some dont. Same with Backgrounds.
Its no hard rule.

(The Minion Charm seems a bit too broken, but the Inventory Charm seems pretty reasonable IMO)
The Inventory charm is an excuse to claim availability of all those things that the QM might not want us to have when they are balancing a combat encounter. And it actively makes it harder to balance such an encounter.

This would be a manageable issue if Molly wasnt already an absolute despot of a five billion person industrialized magitech society. Which translates to essentially access to anything remotely mundane, and most magical shit.

At 1 kilobyte/gram? The 2007 Ipod Classic, 160GB edition, would allow Molly to carry approximately 160 tons of inventory, and thats just an Earth tech digital device from a decade and half ago.
If she carries something from Sanctuary, you are talking orders of magnitude more storage space and inventory.

This is a 1 dot, 4XP charm.
Even the Solars from Ex2 didnt get an inventory like that. They got summoning charms for particular bits of kit IIRC, but they had to hump the rest of their shit.

And yet, her build worked quite well when dealing with the akuma on her own.
Gunman, not a sniper, and she had the fortune of pulling off an ambush against unprepared enemies who didnt even know she'd been recruited. And she did it at less than a hundred yards IIRC.
An actual fight would have been distinctly more hazardous.

We have at least two things that are going to be placed outside of USA: containing abyssal exaltation shard as part of dealing with the solar one (because it absolutely cannot be left to its own devices), and getting Lydia her magic dog (which is likely to take place in primarily old Welsh speaking parts of NeverNever). I would prefer to have Lash for both of those.
We're not going outside of Chicago and maybe Boston this turn.
There's a backlog of social work that needs to be addressed at home.

EDIT
Unless we get jumped.
 
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I feel somewhat conflicted. I think that I prefer Courtly Debut on most points, but Shadow Clones giving Lydia higher Occult might outweigh that.
 
Ok... on balance after the listed arguments I still prefer Yog's plan, on the condition that we spend some of Molly's XP on buying Lydia Occult 2 now and/or more Mentor dots now?
Huh, you know what? Sure. I had 2 xp banked, let's give Lydia occult 2, we can afford that. Done.
YEAH NO WAY THIS IS A 1 DOT CHARM :p
I actually worried about balance here. It's balanced by large essence costs, and how you need to have minions already.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Anaja on Jun 5, 2024 at 3:24 AM, finished with 609 posts and 29 votes.

  • [X] Plan: courtly debut v2
    -[X] Molly, 37 XP
    --[X]Splintered Gale Incarnation: 20xp
    --[X] Counterspell: Human, 3 XP
    --[X] Emergency Minion Hologram, 4 XP
    --[X] Digital Possessions Management, 4XP
    --[X] Shadow Spite Curse (••), 6 XP
    -[X] Lydia, 12 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Spirit, 3 XP
    --[X] Excellency: Wits, 3 XP
    --[X] Akashic Root Methodology (••), 6 XP
    -[X] Lash, 12 XP
    --[X] Lore of Humanity 1, 7 XP
    --[X] Lore of Light 2. 5 XP
    --[X]Investment: Fomor Power: Numbing 1: +3HL + wound penalty negation [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 6: Regrowth: [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 5: Soak Aggravated Damage [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    -[X] Olivia, 12 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Fae, 3 XP
    --[X] Psychoportation 3, 6 XP
    [X]Plan Shadow Clones
    -[X]Molly: 40xp
    --[X]Splintered Gale Incarnation: 20xp
    --[X]Sandstrike Blast: 8xp
    --[X]Countermagic 2/4(Human + Vampire): 6xp
    --[X]Ox-Body Technique 3: 3xp
    --[X]By Rage Recast 3: Swift Stride: 3xp
    --[X]Lash raise Stamina to 5
    --[X]Remaining Bank: 1xp
    -[X]Lash: 11xp
    --[X]Investment: Fomor Power: Numbing 1: +3HL + wound penalty negation [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 6: Regrowth: [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 5: Soak Aggravated Damage [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Lore of Light 2: Bend Light: 5 XP
    --[X]Occult Aptitude: 3XP
    --[X]Countermagic 1/4(Spirit): 3xp
    -[X]Lydia: 11xp + Molly 1
    --[X]Occult 2: 2xp
    --[X]Ox-Body 4: 3xp
    --[X]Devil Fighter/Mo Kung 2: Dragon Speed: 4xp
    --[X]Countermagic 1/4 (Fae): 3xp
    -[X]Olivia: 11xp
    --[X]Bank XP
    [X]Plan Organizations, Pro and Con
    -[X]Molly: 40xp
    --[X]Splintered Gale Incarnation: 20xp
    --[X]Endless Torment Emanation: 12xp
    --[X]Countermagic 2/4(Human + Vampire): 6xp
    --[X]Lash raise Stamina to 5
    --[X]Bank 2 xp
    -[X]Lash: 11xp
    --[X]Investment: Fomor Power: Numbing 1: +3HL + wound penalty negation [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 6: Regrowth: [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 5: Soak Aggravated Damage [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Lore of Light 2: Bend Light: 5 XP
    --[X]Occult Aptitude: 3XP
    --[X]Countermagic 1/4(Spirit): 3xp
    -[X]Lydia: 11xp + Molly 1
    --[X]Occult 2: 2xp
    --[X]Ox-Body 4: 3xp
    --[X]Devil Fighter/Mo Kung 2: Dragon Speed: 4xp
    --[X]Countermagic 1/4 (Fae): 3xp
    -[X]Olivia: 11xp
    --[X]Bank XP
    [X] Plan Rounding out and Clones
    -[X] Molly (41 XP) 1 XP Banked
    --[X] Increase Craft to 5 Dots (4 XP)
    --[X] Increase Academics to 2 Dots (2 XP)
    --[X] Increase Leadership to 4 Dots (3 XP)
    --[X] Increase Alchemy to 5 Dot (12 XP)
    --[X] Buy Mana Manipulation to 3 Dots (7 XP)
    --[X]Splintered Gale Incarnation: 20xp
    --[X]Lash raise Stamina to 5
    -[X]Lash: 11xp
    --[X]Investment: Fomor Power: Numbing 1: +3HL + wound penalty negation [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 6: Regrowth: [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 5: Soak Aggravated Damage [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Lore of Light 2: Bend Light: 5 XP
    --[X]Occult Aptitude: 3XP
    --[X]Countermagic 1/4(Spirit): 3xp
    -[X]Lydia: 11xp + Molly 1
    --[X]Occult 2: 2xp
    --[X]Ox-Body 4: 3xp
    --[X]Devil Fighter/Mo Kung 2: Dragon Speed: 4xp
    --[X]Countermagic 1/4 (Fae): 3xp
    -[X]Olivia: 11xp
    --[X]Bank XP
    [X] Plan Combat not important
    -[X]Molly 42 XP spent
    --[X]Splintered Gale Incarnation: 20xp
    --[X]Verdant Emptiness Endowment (•••••) 20 XP
    --[X] Prayer Eating (•) 2XP
    -[X]Lydia 9 Xp spent and 2 XP banked
    --[X]Occult 2: 2xp
    --[X]Ox-Body 4: 3xp
    --[X]Devil Fighter/Mo Kung 2: Dragon Speed: 4xp
    -[X]Lash: 10xp spent 1 XP banked
    --[X] Buy down permeant torment by 1. 10 XP
    -[X]Olivia: 9xp bank 2 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Human, 3 XP
    --[X] Psychoportation 3, 6 XP
    [X] Plan Do Stuff
    -[X] Molly, 38 XP
    --[X]Splintered Gale Incarnation: 20xp
    --[X] Principle Invoking Onslaught (•••), 12 XP
    --[X] Shadow Spite Curse (••), 6 XP
    -[X] Lydia, 12 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Spirit, 3 XP
    --[X] Excellency: Wits, 3 XP
    --[X] Akashic Root Methodology (••), 6 XP
    -[X] Lash, 12 XP
    --[X] Lore of Humanity 1, 7 XP
    --[X] Lore of Light 2. 5 XP
    -[X] Olivia, 12 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Human, 3 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Fae, 3 XP
    --[X] Psychoportation 3, 6 XP
    [X] Plan: courtly debut v1
    -[X] Molly, 38 XP
    --[X]Splintered Gale Incarnation: 20xp
    --[X] Treading the Golden Path, 4 XP
    --[X] Five Paths, One Ring, 4 XP
    --[X] Digital Possessions Management, 4XP
    --[X] Shadow Spite Curse (••), 6 XP
    -[X] Lydia, 12 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Spirit, 3 XP
    --[X] Excellency: Wits, 3 XP
    --[X] Akashic Root Methodology (••), 6 XP
    -[X] Lash, 12 XP
    --[X] Lore of Humanity 1, 7 XP
    --[X] Lore of Light 2. 5 XP
    --[X]Investment: Fomor Power: Numbing 1: +3HL + wound penalty negation [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 6: Regrowth: [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 5: Soak Aggravated Damage [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    -[X] Olivia, 12 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Human, 3 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Fae, 3 XP
    --[X] Psychoportation 3, 6 XP
    [X] Abstain
Please note that I slipped in occult 2 for Lydia just now inyo my plan, because it's a good investment.
And like I said, we dont control the AP of the other members of our party during the turn.
This is the ONLY time we get to give anyone instructions when we arent on missions.
We can talk to people in-character. If they don't want to get boosts, that's something to be discussed.
I dont expect it to.
It only lasts a turn
No. It lasts an action. So, if Peabody is doing crafting, making his magic ink for example, and we ssc him from afar, he'll lose dice on the crafting roll. Or if he's summoning something and accumulating successes, he loses dice on the action, not the turn.
Like I said, the inventory charm is narratively and mechanically broken.
One of those things that breaks the storytelling contract between players and QM IMO.
Why? No, serious question here - how and why? You might adjust the numbers so we can't carry aircraft carriers around, but how does this break storytelling?

The lady's combat charms are all Brawl charms.
And her summons are objectively shit; the golems are modelled on zombies, and the one spirit summon was benchmarked to Inugami(dog zombie), which in Gods and Monsters, and they dont have much to recommend them.

They are meant to provide some disposable meashields not to actually provide serious combat power.
You are ignoring carriage of the Ankou due to some strange (to me) hangup about what is and isn't personal transport, already demonstrated stuff like drones Lydia developed, and her ghost calling, which isn't a direct summon, but might be used this way.
The Inventory charm is an excuse to claim availability of all those things that the QM might not want us to have when they are balancing a combat encounter.

This would be a manageable issue if Molly wasnt already an absolute despot of a five billion person industrialized society.
The 2007 Ipod Classic, 160GB edition, would allow Molly to carry approximately 160 tons of inventory, and thats just an Earth tech digital device. If she carries something from Sanctuary, we're

This is a 1 dot, 4XP charm.
Even the Solars from Ex2 didnt get to carry arbitrary amounts of shit around.
If the issue is the total carrying capacity, we can work on that. Adjust the scale, he'll, make it logarithmic. But in general I don't think bags of holding and similar items / magics break gameplay or story.
We're not going outside of Chicago and maybe Boston this turn.
There's a backlog of social work that needs to be addressed at home.
That's your opinion, I disagree. Exaltation shards aren't to be left alone, way too dangerous. And Lydia will be getting a dog anyway, we may as well help her.
I feel somewhat conflicted. I think that I prefer Courtly Debut on most points, but Shadow Clones giving Lydia higher Occult might outweigh that.
I added occult 2 to Lydia, since I had 2 xp left over
 
I'd like to note that Inugami were decent minions at the time this charm was created.

Brawl-dicepool like a professional, with a strong and armor-piercing bite, also a good deal tougher than humans, with more health and 4 dice of lethal soak.

I did not foresee the insane escalation of power this game would go through when making that Charm. It effectively replaces about 2 Dots of allies or retainers with free, replaceable combatants, which is not unreasonable in my eyes.
 
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Note: All feedback is vibes based and not mechanically matched to canon Charms
at the rate 1 kilobyte per gram of matter
No comment on how expensive this is, but I will note that this has the notable weakness of said matter being poof if the digital object is broken so...


On a success, a mystic symbol carves itself into the bodies of the faction leaders.
5 * years the binding held
1) Which faction leader is gonna accept Mysterious Spooky Symbols carving themselves in? We aren't Mab, are we?
2) Bruh, that is Yes Damage for breaking long term pacts, and ironically that encourages people to break pacts faster or never do it?
I like the spirit of the charm though


By taking an action and spending 1 Essence, the Infernal can conjure a copy of any physical record to exist in her hands. The record persists for five days and then disappears.
NO (This is more broken than the Crown with the caveat of said physical record not necessarily containing truths, you understand?)


Whenever they make a roll, the Infernal may choose to act instead, substituting their appropriate dice pools for her own, and rolling at the same difficulty as they would have had.
So... what's the point then?? Second half of the Charm looks fine though, if a bit underpowered for 2 dots.


conjures a vortex of iron-filled tornado around them, which inflicts 10 dice of lethal damage
1) This Charm has nothing to do with the Hell she has?
2) What I forsee is Denarian trolls doing this all day long to screw over whoever is around her?
Infernal must spend one point of essence or willpower in order to stop this automatic defense.
................


Whenever someone attempts to read the Infernal's mind by any means, roll Perception + Awareness against difficulty 8. Success reveals not only the mind-reading attempt, but also who is responsible. The Infernal may then pay 1 Essence to reflexively shield her thoughts, making them impossible to read for the rest of the scene.
If you must have this Charm, this is good enough and lower it to 2 dots? (And does reflexive work before any thoughts are successfully read?)


The Infernal can pay additional 2 essence to smoothly integrate the newly awakened memories and thoughts into the current ego, granting the benefits of the charm to the target while shielding them from harmful consequences.
Isn't this an budget form of VEE and thus worth more dots?


five days training, all subjects gain 30 experience points
Bruh, this seems better than Legendary Scholar Curriculum??? Should be a 5 dot Charm if such is even legal to begin with, and harsher penalties too.


By reflexively spending 1 Essence, the Infernal perfectly defends against a pair of attacks striking her on the same turn, forcing them to parry each other.
On one hand, 3 dots; on the other Perfect Defense is a lot - perhaps style this as Mass Combat Penalty Reduction instead? Again this has nothing to do with her Hell so...


Anyone attempting to directly use computerized equipment, and especially anything exclusively relying on information technology, against the target of this charm does so at +3 DC. Any wholly automated process simply fails outright
Based off vibes this is too effective for a 3 dot Charm, but I could be wrong. The idea definitely works though, so that's good.


This is a perfect prison they cannot escape from.
In this setting, where even Demonreach is not a Perfect Prison, and how Infernals don't like Perfect Prison this seems totally unworkable, and unrelated to Molly's Themes?


Instead of ending in their intended afterlife
You definitely need to add a "if the target agrees" clause, otherwise Molly might be stealing souls from the White God and I cannot see her doing that? Even if you do it seems a little iffy anyway, considering how being bound to Fivefold Courts is effectively binding them permanently to her Faction and all.


She can shorten that time by spending what essence she has at the moment of her would-be death at the rate of 56 days per point of essence. Alternatively, her followers can shorten her return by offering their essence through a ritual similar to Prayer Eating (see Exalted vs. World of Darkness: Revised, p. 292).
Definitely a 5 dot Charm, but this needs to be combed through with a fine tooth comb to avoid being too broken? Sounds like it would work though.

By spending 2 Essence and touching someone, the Infernal imposes her law upon their destiny. Should they be killed in the same manner as designed to kill the Infernal, their soul would be shredded by the spinning of the wheel, with no possiblity of resurrection or reincarnation of any kind.
Wait, what's the difference between this and MiM? As things stand the only thing I can see this being useful for is to kill Denarians for ??? story beats.

Unity of Five Cities ●●●●●
Doesn't this just make balancing combat infinitely harder for the QM? (Also, does Molly watch that many Sentai shows? :p)
Feels a little like shoehorning the unity aspect of the Hell a bit too strongly to me.

Overall, @Yog, my impressions are while there are ok Charms in there most of them seem overpowered/have unnecessary effects/require more wording workshopping?

(For Emergency Minion Hologram, you probably should strike the "grants XP" part at absolute minimum - everyone and their mother would like to be Molly's minion to gain XP for literally 0 risk other than reputational ones then?
This is also narratively prone to abuse by using said minions for stuff that the original won't approve of / would normally require Favours to do, even if Molly probably won't do that it's still Not Good.)
 
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No comment on how expensive this is, but I will note that this has the notable weakness of said matter being poof if the digital object is broken so...
That's intentional, yes.

1) Which faction leader is gonna accept Mysterious Spooky Symbols carving themselves in? We aren't Mab, are we?
That's the catch - you don't need to deal with faction leaders. This is a coup instrument as much as oath sanctification.
2) Bruh, that is Yes Damage for breaking long term pacts, and ironically that encourages people to break pacts faster or never do it?
Yes, yes it is. That's the idea of the charm. It's still an Infernal charmset, they are supposed to have evil stuff.

NO (This is more broken than the Crown with the caveat of said physical record not necessarily containing truths, you understand?)
Physical record was meant to be "printer book", "published cd disk" etc. It's TTC or PIO but for published books and similar stuff. Drop it to scene long maybe?
And no, it doesn't replace the crown, not by itself at least. You still need to read the record, and you don't get instinctive understanding at all.

So... what's the point then?? Second half of the Charm looks fine though, if a bit underpowered for 2 dots.
Imagine a special forces group attacks our school. Molly proxies her classmates. They now can parry with Molly's dicepool. It's a multi action charm by means of minions, and one I consider (fear to be) overpowered.

1) This Charm has nothing to do with the Hell she has?
2) What I forsee is Denarian trolls doing this all day long to screw over whoever is around her?
Wastes are very much a part of Molly's kingdom. The were the first thing I wrote, even.

Isn't this an budget form of VEE and thus worth more dots?
I... don't think so? It's for a specific thing that is significantly less powerful than IDU or analogs.
Bruh, this seems better than Legendary Scholar Curriculum??? Should be a 5 dot Charm if such is even legal to begin with, and harsher penalties too.
The penalties yes, require a lot of workshopping, even if I like the current concept (it maps to general education path in real world). It trades needing a proxy for versatility. Otherwise it's a normal training charm, I think. The numbers I took straight from other training charms. They all grant 30 XP on first application.
On one hand, 3 dots; on the other Perfect Defense is a lot - perhaps style this as Mass Combat Penalty Reduction instead? Again this has nothing to do with her Hell so...
Shadow murk evasion is 3 dots perfect defense, and it's very thematic for her kingdom - thr forests (the glpoldilocks area) exists only because of the clash of two storms.

In this setting, where even Demonreach is not a Perfect Prison, and how Infernals don't like Perfect Prison this seems totally unworkable, and unrelated to Molly's Themes?
This is a form of perfect attack, essentially. It's meant to be themed after the Labyrinth a bit, but I take your meaning. Maybe key the release condition to them swearing fealty to Molly?

You definitely need to add a "if the target agrees" clause, otherwise Molly might be stealing souls from the White God and I cannot see her doing that? Even if you do it seems a little iffy anyway, considering how being bound to Fivefold Courts is effectively binding them permanently to her Faction and all.
There's afterlife, and then there's what comes after. White God is the latter in the setting, so we are, at most, delaying stuff.
Definitely a 5 dot Charm, but this needs to be combed through with a fine tooth comb to avoid being too broken? Sounds like it would work though.

Wait, what's the difference between this and MiM? As things stand the only thing I can see this being useful for is to kill Denarians for ??? story beats.
Numbers need workshopping. Initially version was much weaker, with longer delay time and no way to shorten it. People complained it was too weak.

The second part is meant as a balance for the first, to encourage realistic death conditions.

Doesn't this just make balancing combat infinitely harder for the QM? (Also, does Molly watch that many Sentai shows? :p)
Feels a little like shoehorning the unity aspect of the Hell a bit too strongly to me.
I really, really wanted Unity of the Closed Fist.

Overall, @Yog, my impressions are while there are ok Charms in there most of them seem overpowered/have unnecessary effects/require more wording workshopping?
Would you believe that up to this point the main criticism I received was that the charms were too underpowered and needlessly restricted? And that this is a result of multiple iterations of buffing them in response to criticism which J considered valid?

Numbers need workshopping, yes. Charms being overpowered in a way that's not fun to play is my main concern.
 
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I'd like to note that Inugami were decent minions at the time this charm was created.

Brawl-dicepool like a professional, with a strong and armor-piercing bit, also a good deal tougher than humans, with more health and 4 dice of lethal soak.

I did not foresee the insane escalation of power this game would go through when making that Charm. It effectively replaces about 2 Dots of allies or retainers with free, replaceable combatants, which is not unreasonable in my eyes.
The system is creaking and straining badly with Molly's growth, yes. It's clear that Holden didn't intend it for long campaigns, I think. I feel your pain, it's hard to balance things.
 
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