Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

But why would they do this by going so far into the deep end and dealing with beings that they know are totally evil and untrustworthy beings to get support against Molly, who up until now has only had controllable and neutral relationships with them while still leaving proxy of the court white and red, in addition to other supernatural interests within politics?

On top of that we would be acting like just another super PAC throwing money at our chosen candidate. They would act if they had strong suspicions that we were trying to control the entire government, but if it was just a few candidates they would just look a little closer.

I honestly think that their goal is not really to expel all supernaturals from politics (an impossible task and one that they really should have known failed a long time ago, perhaps since the declaration of independence) but rather to prevent one side from fully controlling the government and punish their obvious effort of a lot of magic against common candidates
If they are in a situation where Hell Queen Molly is staging a political takeover of the US and is turning a deaf ear to them, and noone else is willing or able to offer help, they're hardly going to just lay down and die.
Any more than Dresden did when he realized the Reds were trying to murder his daughter.

They will go to her enemies and try to cut a deal. Just like Dresden has gone to Marcone to cut a deal in White Night.
Any port in a storm.
The Church, the White Council, Odin, Winter, Summer, none of them would side with the Library over Molly.
And asking for help from demons is not the move of a savvy operator.
1) You might be surprised.

Dresden killed Summer Lady Aurora while acting as Winter's Emissary in Summer Knight, then attacked Arctis Tor with the help of Summer Lady Lily in Proven Guilty, only to be again dodging Summer assassins in Small Favor.
Alliances can and do change with circumstances.


2) Harry Dresden used to deal with a demon information trader, and he's far from the only wizard who did or does so.
Its not a preferred choice, but it is an option.
Its not even illegal by White Council law, at least if you're a wizard. You're just expected to be smart and careful about it.
 
Yes, Nemesis is limited in how they can act on Earth, but that wouldn't necessarily stop them dragging a clone Molly back Outside to reverse-engineer where Uriel & co. can't stop it.
You realize that if Nemesis dates back to creation which by all account it does, it already knows everything it could possibly learn about Exalted from back then already.

If they are in a situation where Hell Queen Molly is staging a political takeover of the US and is turning a deaf ear to them, and noone else is willing or able to offer help, they're hardly going to just lay down and die.
Talk about paranoia, funding a candidate is SOP for everybody magical, none magical, hositle powers ETC. It not like we would be actually trying to take take over the US by propping up candidates in every state in every level of government from the courts, to small town mayors. That would be an Exalted trying.
 
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*looks at current tally*
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Jun 4, 2024 at 9:37 PM, finished with 570 posts and 29 votes.

  • [X] Plan: courtly debut v2
    -[X] Molly, 37 XP
    --[X]Splintered Gale Incarnation: 20xp
    --[X] Counterspell: Human, 3 XP
    --[X] Emergency Minion Hologram, 4 XP
    --[X] Digital Possessions Management, 4XP
    --[X] Shadow Spite Curse (••), 6 XP
    -[X] Lydia, 12 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Spirit, 3 XP
    --[X] Excellency: Wits, 3 XP
    --[X] Akashic Root Methodology (••), 6 XP
    -[X] Lash, 12 XP
    --[X] Lore of Humanity 1, 7 XP
    --[X] Lore of Light 2. 5 XP
    --[X]Investment: Fomor Power: Numbing 1: +3HL + wound penalty negation [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 6: Regrowth: [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 5: Soak Aggravated Damage [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    -[X] Olivia, 12 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Fae, 3 XP
    --[X] Psychoportation 3, 6 XP
    [X]Plan Shadow Clones
    -[X]Molly: 40xp
    --[X]Splintered Gale Incarnation: 20xp
    --[X]Sandstrike Blast: 8xp
    --[X]Countermagic 2/4(Human + Vampire): 6xp
    --[X]Ox-Body Technique 3: 3xp
    --[X]By Rage Recast 3: Swift Stride: 3xp
    --[X]Lash raise Stamina to 5
    --[X]Remaining Bank: 1xp
    -[X]Lash: 11xp
    --[X]Investment: Fomor Power: Numbing 1: +3HL + wound penalty negation [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 6: Regrowth: [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 5: Soak Aggravated Damage [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Lore of Light 2: Bend Light: 5 XP
    --[X]Occult Aptitude: 3XP
    --[X]Countermagic 1/4(Spirit): 3xp
    -[X]Lydia: 11xp + Molly 1
    --[X]Occult 2: 2xp
    --[X]Ox-Body 4: 3xp
    --[X]Devil Fighter/Mo Kung 2: Dragon Speed: 4xp
    --[X]Countermagic 1/4 (Fae): 3xp
    -[X]Olivia: 11xp
    --[X]Bank XP
    [X]Plan Organizations, Pro and Con
    -[X]Molly: 40xp
    --[X]Splintered Gale Incarnation: 20xp
    --[X]Endless Torment Emanation: 12xp
    --[X]Countermagic 2/4(Human + Vampire): 6xp
    --[X]Lash raise Stamina to 5
    --[X]Bank 2 xp
    -[X]Lash: 11xp
    --[X]Investment: Fomor Power: Numbing 1: +3HL + wound penalty negation [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 6: Regrowth: [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 5: Soak Aggravated Damage [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Lore of Light 2: Bend Light: 5 XP
    --[X]Occult Aptitude: 3XP
    --[X]Countermagic 1/4(Spirit): 3xp
    -[X]Lydia: 11xp + Molly 1
    --[X]Occult 2: 2xp
    --[X]Ox-Body 4: 3xp
    --[X]Devil Fighter/Mo Kung 2: Dragon Speed: 4xp
    --[X]Countermagic 1/4 (Fae): 3xp
    -[X]Olivia: 11xp
    --[X]Bank XP
    [X] Plan Rounding out and Clones
    -[X] Molly (41 XP) 1 XP Banked
    --[X] Increase Craft to 5 Dots (4 XP)
    --[X] Increase Academics to 2 Dots (2 XP)
    --[X] Increase Leadership to 4 Dots (3 XP)
    --[X] Increase Alchemy to 5 Dot (12 XP)
    --[X] Buy Mana Manipulation to 3 Dots (7 XP)
    --[X]Splintered Gale Incarnation: 20xp
    --[X]Lash raise Stamina to 5
    -[X]Lash: 11xp
    --[X]Investment: Fomor Power: Numbing 1: +3HL + wound penalty negation [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 6: Regrowth: [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 5: Soak Aggravated Damage [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Lore of Light 2: Bend Light: 5 XP
    --[X]Occult Aptitude: 3XP
    --[X]Countermagic 1/4(Spirit): 3xp
    -[X]Lydia: 11xp + Molly 1
    --[X]Occult 2: 2xp
    --[X]Ox-Body 4: 3xp
    --[X]Devil Fighter/Mo Kung 2: Dragon Speed: 4xp
    --[X]Countermagic 1/4 (Fae): 3xp
    -[X]Olivia: 11xp
    --[X]Bank XP
    [X] Plan Combat not important
    -[X]Molly 42 XP spent
    --[X]Splintered Gale Incarnation: 20xp
    --[X]Verdant Emptiness Endowment (•••••) 20 XP
    --[X] Prayer Eating (•) 2XP
    -[X]Lydia 9 Xp spent and 2 XP banked
    --[X]Occult 2: 2xp
    --[X]Ox-Body 4: 3xp
    --[X]Devil Fighter/Mo Kung 2: Dragon Speed: 4xp
    -[X]Lash: 10xp spent 1 XP banked
    --[X] Buy down permeant torment by 1. 10 XP
    -[X]Olivia: 9xp bank 2 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Human, 3 XP
    --[X] Psychoportation 3, 6 XP
    [X] Plan Do Stuff
    -[X] Molly, 38 XP
    --[X]Splintered Gale Incarnation: 20xp
    --[X] Principle Invoking Onslaught (•••), 12 XP
    --[X] Shadow Spite Curse (••), 6 XP
    -[X] Lydia, 12 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Spirit, 3 XP
    --[X] Excellency: Wits, 3 XP
    --[X] Akashic Root Methodology (••), 6 XP
    -[X] Lash, 12 XP
    --[X] Lore of Humanity 1, 7 XP
    --[X] Lore of Light 2. 5 XP
    -[X] Olivia, 12 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Human, 3 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Fae, 3 XP
    --[X] Psychoportation 3, 6 XP
    [X] Plan: courtly debut v1
    -[X] Molly, 38 XP
    --[X]Splintered Gale Incarnation: 20xp
    --[X] Treading the Golden Path, 4 XP
    --[X] Five Paths, One Ring, 4 XP
    --[X] Digital Possessions Management, 4XP
    --[X] Shadow Spite Curse (••), 6 XP
    -[X] Lydia, 12 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Spirit, 3 XP
    --[X] Excellency: Wits, 3 XP
    --[X] Akashic Root Methodology (••), 6 XP
    -[X] Lash, 12 XP
    --[X] Lore of Humanity 1, 7 XP
    --[X] Lore of Light 2. 5 XP
    --[X]Investment: Fomor Power: Numbing 1: +3HL + wound penalty negation [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 6: Regrowth: [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    --[X]Investment: Special Advantage 5: Soak Aggravated Damage [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
    -[X] Olivia, 12 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Human, 3 XP
    --[X] Counterspell: Fae, 3 XP
    --[X] Psychoportation 3, 6 XP
    [X] Abstain




Okay, I need three votes to make Shadow Clones and Sandstrike Blast happen.
Who can I bribe?
Im soliciting votes
 
Yes, Nemesis is limited in how they can act on Earth, but that wouldn't necessarily stop them dragging a clone Molly back Outside to reverse-engineer where Uriel & co. can't stop it.
And people have to stop thinking that creating exaltations is easy. Can anyone explain to me what happened with this change? Before, Exaltations were unique miracles created by greatest of all craftsmen with the essence of the greatest gods, so perfect that not even time could diminish them and whose copying was impossible, now if we believe in these statements, every type of god, King Yama, minor spirit and fairy can snap their fingers and make new ones?

I don't follow the fandom but this seems like a completely sudden change from what I knew.
 
Talk about paranoia, funding a candidate is SOP for everybody magical, none magical, hositle powers ETC. It not like we would be actually trying to take take over the US by propping up candidates in every state in every level of government from the courts, to small town mayors. That would be an Exalted trying.
There is absolutely no evidence of this being the case in the Dresdenverse, by the way.

Down in Red Court country, Rampires do control governments and major institutions.
Up in the US, Canada and Europe, supernaturals do not. Some factions bribe or otherwise influence individuals (see the White Court), but there is no effort to systematically undermine the administrative and political infrastructure.

Thats the difference between the blood lands and everywhere else.
 
There is absolutely no evidence of this being the case in the Dresdenverse, by the way.

Down in Red Court country, Rampires do control governments and major institutions.
Up in the US, Canada and Europe, supernaturals do not. Some factions bribe or otherwise influence individuals (see the White Court), but there is no effort to systematically undermine the administrative and political infrastructure.

Thats the difference between the blood lands and everywhere else.
So you do not see the US having regular interactions, like say giving 100k to a candidate, and asking them to put a little exemption to the new law so your company does not get hit with a new tax bill. Because that happens all the time Here completely legal manipulation of the political arena. It not hard to control politics if your rich.
 
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Down in Red Court country, Rampires do control governments and major institutions.
Up in the US, Canada and Europe, supernaturals do not. Some factions bribe or otherwise influence individuals (see the White Court), but there is no effort to systematically undermine the administrative and political infrastructure.
...are supernatural types just lazy everywhere else? The fact that they aren't meaningfully subverting government is more concerning than many scenarios where they are.

If there is no pondscum or mosquito larvae in the lake I become suspicious about the safety of the water. If I see wriggling nasty things I can generally assume I just need to boil the shit out of it before consumption but anything pristine gives no such comfort blanket.
 
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So you do not see the US having regular interactions, like say giving 100k to a candidate, and asking them to put a little exemption to the new law so your company does not get hit with a new tax bill. Because that happens all the time Here completely legal manipulation of the political arena. It not hard to control politics if your rich.
Money trails have paper trails. Paper trails persist and can be followed weeks and years later.
Politics, at least in the First World, is significantly more transparent than it used to be with regards to funding.

...are supernatural types just lazy everywhere else? The fact that they aren't meaningfully subverting government is more concerning than many scenarios where they are.

If there is no pondscum or mosquito larvae in the lake I become suspicious about the safety of the water. If I see wriggling nasty things I can generally assume I just need to boil the shit out of it before consumption but anything pristine gives no such comfort blanket.
Its never stated. But if I had to guess, its more about stability.

A competing mass of supernatural-sponsored political factions and candidates meddling in mortal politics and all struggling for factional advantage is unstable and likely to simply blow up in everyone's face and result in the return of the days back when you had witch burners and the likes wandering around.

And in an age when nukes exist, the potential for major damage exists, with the destruction of what they are competing over.

Everyone loses.
Not to mention that with the Swords around, everyone does have to keep in mind that Sky Daddy might lose patience and spank somebody. Probably has before.



I know that according to the RPG, Simon Pietrovich, Mab and Winter were involved in the events around the fall of the Tsars and the rise of the Communists; someone working for the Reds was Winter Knight at the time.

Also, the White Council have a stated policy of societal uplift, and the advent of stable democracies and widespread education has been a multi-century project for them to create societies safe and comfortable for wizards and the magically talented to live in. Trading individual power for social stability.

The last major intervention that Word of Jim mentioned was that they had backchannel involvement in lowering nuclear tensions during the Cold War.
 
gain I don't think they actually do that they're not actually the police that's their whole bit and they're not actually that serious. Never mind the fact that everything you described is illegal and we have ways to find out the those phenomenons are happening and find the paper trail for them being initiated. It might take AP but it takes money to be doing illegal shit like that and it's in a legal system that is still primed towards capitalists and moneyed interest not having their rights stifled like that. Everything you were describing if it happened and we could prove it's happening would get every single agency law enforcement and construction company sued into Oblivion because that means they're one breaking the law to intimidating clinical opponents three outright blocking the citizen from engaging in a democracy.
The two hundred plus year old time mage and her agency aren't serious about the function they exist to serve?

And technically most of that's not illegal; we're hilariously criminal, it's just politely ignored because Molly's dangerous and helpful in equal measure. The arms trafficking, document forging, assault of federal agents, kidnapping, murder, and so on. It all adds up.

The system is primed to its existing beneficiaries, I think you'd be surprised about how this goes.

It's wasteful and pointless to walk down this road.

Yeah? I was addressing the other more direct methods which wouldn't work.

This is the only way that would work, but it really only serves to annoy Molly and inconvenience her. Worst come to worst she can just move to Canada and get her hooks into the mortal world from there. Or directly retaliate and ruin the Library with her own rumors, connections, intelligence, and even direct violence. She isn't just gonna sit there and take it; Molly can act of her own accord and retaliate y'know.
Yes she can, but my core issue is that you're kind of ignoring the ability of everyone else to act in a meaningful way. This fundamentally the same attitude as the vampires have, it's just patronizing instead of predatory.

It would be an actual fight with consequences and costs, not something we'd just roll over and forget about. Molly is not nearly so dominant in large scale social because she's built for small group stuff.


Not to put to fine a point on it but Molly is really beneath the notice of the Library of Congress when the known amount of money spent on legal lobbing is 3.47 billion in 2009. And untold amount of unreported, and illegal money. Molly is a full 3 zeros away from being relevant in politics minimum, 5 zeros to be an actual player.
That is a fair point on a pure dollar level, but if we start strategically attempting to subvert the government it's going to burn down the relationship we've been cultivating before we even really get anything out of it and encounter some kind of resistance.

Worst case the nature of that conflict empowers the stupid wing of the federal government's supernatural groups and we lead to the rise of Daedalus brand thinking all across the country.

There are plenty of ways to influence governance and society as a whole without stepping on a land mine. Business, academia, institutional agreements, stuff like that. They're unlikely to go off over stuff like that, or even little bits of grey zone horse trading. However, if we directly and overtly violate their mandate they have to do something. Regardless of how that game plays out in the end we both lose.
 
Yes she can, but my core issue is that you're kind of ignoring the ability of everyone else to act in a meaningful way. This fundamentally the same attitude as the vampires have, it's just patronizing instead of predatory.

It would be an actual fight with consequences and costs, not something we'd just roll over and forget about. Molly is not nearly so dominant in large scale social because she's built for small group stuff.

I mean, this is just a hypothetical, since I can't imagine voting for circumstances which would have the Library declare war against Molly like that.

Vampires absolutely do not ignore the capacity for mortal intervention. Their attitude is one of a fearful predator skulking around the edges of human society, because humanity is the 800 pound gorilla in the room.

That attitude is very much one not shared by Molly, who is human, and doesn't require human suffering to exist. I fail to see how even a self-aggrandizing projection of how she would fare in economic warfare is in any way "fundamentally the same attitude as the vampires have".
 
And in an age when nukes exist, the potential for major damage exists, with the destruction of what they are competing over.

Everyone loses..
The rest might be up in the air, and I can see where you are coming from, but the last part here is irrelevant: People should have been playing this game since well before nuclear weapons were even an option and at that point they would already have the tiger by the tail. Either they would have found a way to divest themselves, a very tricky process I'm sure, or they were systematically excised in one hell of a shadow war. The removal of Kemmler wouldn't even count as a sideshow to that circus.

We'd also be counting on the idea that all players are rational actors. Some people have more balls than brains, seeing the chance at power as worth any risk, just like in real life. Some people make calculated risks but are bad at math. Some people are just desperate. For all of these you would have to assume there were no major holdouts who could exploit the power vacuum.
 
There are plenty of ways to influence governance and society as a whole without stepping on a land mine. Business, academia, institutional agreements, stuff like that. They're unlikely to go off over stuff like that, or even little bits of grey zone horse trading. However, if we directly and overtly violate their mandate they have to do something. Regardless of how that game plays out in the end we both lose.
^^^
This is not free real estate.

Its been claimed by a lot of players, who are all watching each other carefully to preclude someone else gathering undue influence vis a vis another. The Fae have always been active among the artists, the ambitious and so on, but they are personal relationships, not attempts to gain societal power.


The rest might be up in the air, and I can see where you are coming from, but the last part here is irrelevant: People should have been playing this game since well before nuclear weapons were even an option and at that point they would already have the tiger by the tail. Either they would have found a way to divest themselves, a very tricky process I'm sure, or they were systematically excised in one hell of a shadow war. The removal of Kemmler wouldn't even count as a sideshow to that circus.

We'd also be counting on the idea that all players are rational actors. Some people have more balls than brains, seeing the chance at power as worth any risk, just like in real life. Some people make calculated risks but are bad at math. Some people are just desperate. For all of these you would have to assume there were no major holdouts who could exploit the power vacuum.
I dont really agree. No need for a purge if there was no infrastructure to be embedded in.

The modern nation state is a fairly recent invention, dating to the 17th century circa Treaty of Westphalia. Thats a period of maybe 350 years; not quite a wizard's lifetime. Prior to that, any supernaturals playing in mortal politics would be invested in persons and families, but not the infrastructure of a nationstate.

Person or family dies out, you start from scratch. If you just didnt start again, there's nothing to uproot.


And it bears remembering that while Butcher does not go out of his way to particularly emphasize it, the existence of the Swords suggests that the events of the Bible did in some manner happen.
So you kinda have to keep in mind that while it appears to have gone out of fashion, events from the Old Testament like
  • The fall of Lucifer's angels
  • The orbital bombardment of Sodom and Gomorrah
  • The slaying of the firstborn of Egypt

All have at least some truth to them. Divine smites are very much a thing.
And the reason the gods withdrew from reality is allegedly the White God saying that he wanted humanity to learn to stand on its own too feet.

Any supernatural faction that chooses not to heed that gentle warning and thinks the withdrawal of rival is a license to party....well

Those who fuck around too hard, might be brought by degrees to find out.
Might take time, decades and centuries even.
But, well, ask the Red Court why a Sword explicitly declared judgement on them at Chitchen Itza.
 
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I mean, this is just a hypothetical, since I can't imagine voting for circumstances which would have the Library declare war against Molly like that.

Vampires absolutely do not ignore the capacity for mortal intervention. Their attitude is one of a fearful predator skulking around the edges of human society, because humanity is the 800 pound gorilla in the room.

That attitude is very much one not shared by Molly, who is human, and doesn't require human suffering to exist. I fail to see how even a self-aggrandizing projection of how she would fare in economic warfare is in any way "fundamentally the same attitude as the vampires have".
The vampires are afraid of waking them up on one level, but also still largely regard themselves as superior and capable of manipulating and ruling over humans as long as they exert any effort at all to do so. The Accords implicitly assume any relationship between a supernatural power and a mortal one is based on the former exploiting the latter.

I don't think Molly follows their philosophy, but the idea that we can just make the few who dare to interfere do whatever we want does.
 
The two hundred plus year old time mage and her agency aren't serious about the function they exist to serve?

And technically most of that's not illegal; we're hilariously criminal, it's just politely ignored because Molly's dangerous and helpful in equal measure. The arms trafficking, document forging, assault of federal agents, kidnapping, murder, and so on. It all adds up.

The system is primed to its existing beneficiaries, I think you'd be surprised about how this goes.

It's wasteful and pointless to walk down this road.


Yes she can, but my core issue is that you're kind of ignoring the ability of everyone else to act in a meaningful way. This fundamentally the same attitude as the vampires have, it's just patronizing instead of predatory.

It would be an actual fight with consequences and costs, not something we'd just roll over and forget about. Molly is not nearly so dominant in large scale social because she's built for small group stuff.



That is a fair point on a pure dollar level, but if we start strategically attempting to subvert the government it's going to burn down the relationship we've been cultivating before we even really get anything out of it and encounter some kind of resistance.

Worst case the nature of that conflict empowers the stupid wing of the federal government's supernatural groups and we lead to the rise of Daedalus brand thinking all across the country.

There are plenty of ways to influence governance and society as a whole without stepping on a land mine. Business, academia, institutional agreements, stuff like that. They're unlikely to go off over stuff like that, or even little bits of grey zone horse trading. However, if we directly and overtly violate their mandate they have to do something. Regardless of how that game plays out in the end we both lose.
Okay I feel like you're purposely ignoring the point I'm making of One we don't have to embark on this kind of path even if we wanted to without talking to to them first which I'm not saying we do. Two it is not subverting a government to participate in how a government functions as a natural born citizen of said country. What your suggesting is not just horrifically illegal overreach but also outside of their wheelhouse and completely overreactionary.

So I will reiterate if they have a policy Beyond don't try to use your magic to influence your the election I would be grievously surprised because everything else is what you're supposed to be doing. There's nothing wrong with putting forward and supporting a political candidate that is how democracies are supposed to work. I get it people are resistant to talking politics but it's like we were talking pretty explicitly about how do you deal with criminal Behavior / major criminal actors in your home the way to do that is to not give them fertile soil in the first place so that means protecting people that are easily preyed upon giving proper resources to other people who are also preyed upon and making systemic changes.

What you're saying would be if someone who gave them a seat at the table the negotiation of a American city for the first time ever in the Supernatural scene and turning on them when they believe it or not also have political agendas like say giving the Library of Congress a seat at the table in the Supernatural scene ever.
 
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Okay I feel like you're purposely ignoring the point I'm making of One we don't have to embark on this kind of path even if we wanted to which I'm not saying we do. Two it is not subverting a government to participate in how a government functions as a natural born citizen of said country. What your suggesting is not just horrifically illegal overreach but also outside of their wheelhouse and completely overreactionary.
You're missing my point. Stuff like super pacs are pretty obviously corrupt, but the Library's job isn't normal corruption and the people who are supposed to be doing that one are too busy enjoying their bribes to show up in the office.

The standard they're going to use is a major supernatural effort to overtly take control of governmental bodies as a going concern. Molly can vote, but because she's a solaroid her political donations are going to get an extra eye on them. It's not fair, but fairness isn't the point here. Stopping supernatural powers from owning the government outright is. We're being held to a higher standard.

Illegal overreach is a matter of precise tactics. You could truthfully charge Molly with Madrigal's murder, the assault of multiple federal agents, falsifying business records, something like a minimum of three felonies per fake ID we've gotten for our associates, whatever unlicensed tank manufacture/sale gets you, and probably some more stuff I'm not thinking of right now.

An audit would find criminal activity because our entire resource background was bought with white collar crime. The trick is proving it without breaking the masquerade.

This isn't like that thing with Harry where Daedalus booked him for something they knew he didn't do.


So I will reiterate if they have a policy Beyond don't try to use your magic to influence your the election I would be grievously surprised because everything else is what you're supposed to be doing. There's nothing wrong with putting forward and supporting a political candidate that is how democracies are supposed to work. I get it people are resistant to talking politics but it's like we were talking pretty explicitly about how do you deal with criminal Behavior / major criminal actors in your home the way to do that is to not give them virtual soil in the first place so that means protecting people that are easily preyed upon giving proper resources to other people who are also preyed upon and making systemic changes.

What you're saying would be if someone who gave them a seat at the table the negotiation of a American city for the first time ever in the Supernatural scene and turning on them when they believe it or not also have political agendas like say giving the Library of Congress a seat at the table in the Supernatural scene ever
Weren't you talking about using our powers to support pushing these candidates? We can have engagement with politics, but we can't be inside and outside the house at the same time.

They have good cause to not want people acting and negotiating as external entities effectively picking who they negotiate with.
 
I don't think Molly follows their philosophy, but the idea that we can just make the few who dare to interfere do whatever we want does.

There seems to be a misunderstanding here because I certainly don't subscribe to the idea that we can do whatever we want to those who mess with us. And I don't see how anything I wrote suggests so, when my main point is that the Library can inconvenience Molly but not beat her in a cage match, like Ethniu or Drakul could.
 
Weren't you talking about using our powers to support pushing these candidates? We can have engagement with politics, but we can't be inside and outside the house at the same time.

They have good cause to not want people acting and negotiating as external entities effectively picking who they negotiate with.
No that is not what I was suggesting. I was saying find our candidates which we can do by using our crown because political activist and platforms already exist and keep them safe and alive and provide financial support.
I don't know where in my previous post gave that impression of magically helping them win the election when I think I've literally only floated financial support candidate picking and commercials which is how every election works.

But no I was literally talking about finding ourselves An appropriate candidate for the positions that are already in politics and giving them the support they need to be successful on their own merits. As I know they definitely exist there's no new political Theory under the sun at least not at this juncture. Though that may be why I was getting kind of irritated with what you were saying cuz if you thought I was saying let's actively commit fraud in an election I can see why you would think that would make the Library of Congress aggro that's fucking insanely illegal and not okay from any standpoint moral, ethical or otherwise.
 
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This is not free real estate.

Its been claimed by a lot of players, who are all watching each other carefully to preclude someone else gathering undue influence vis a vis another. The Fae have always been active among the artists, the ambitious and so on, but they are personal relationships, not attempts to gain societal power
Science and industry, ie ferromancy seem to mostly be free real estate as it was, with Mikaboshi having the strongest claim.
 
Money trails have paper trails. Paper trails persist and can be followed weeks and years later.
Politics, at least in the First World, is significantly more transparent than it used to be with regards to funding.
Giving money is just the first, and easiest method to influence and control politics again 3.57 billion will be spent on legal lobbying in the year of 2009, and untold amounts of unreported and other methods utilized.

Their are far far more stealthy and subtle methods, all perfectly legal and above board. Like say spreading out your 50,000 jobs across the states, or even just within a single state. That way if a state or county gets uppity you can threaten to move those 5,000 local jobs out, crashing the local economy ruining a towns mayor reputation, while costing you almost nothing. They spread out the jobs like this to prevent a political faction forming against any one their companies, if only one person politicians will be ruined by passing this bill that will cost your company 1% of it bottom-line, the other 50 local politicians can push it thou, spreading out your jobs means you can cost 20+ politicians their carriers. This is just basic stuff anyone can do to basically control politics without needing magic, just the willing to ruin people in-mass.
 
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Science and industry, ie ferromancy seem to mostly be free real estate as it was, with Mikaboshi having the strongest claim.
Science and industry isnt new.
Gods of science, knowledge, craft have existed long before Mikaboshi was born.
The Muses were patrons of scholars back in Greece.

As for a claim? No more than Hades has the strongest claim on death.
Mikaboshi isnt even the only Yama King thats into technology, just the most prominent. Remember to filter his hype through the fact that he's a self-aggrandizing megalomaniac. A very competent one, admittedly.

Certainly, claiming it doesnt bestow any particular power or privilege. Everyone else will shrug and continue their business.
This isnt like Winter embodying the concept of winter.
I do not understand the system: Can you give me a (mostly) fair breakdown of the difference between the two plans? (And banking XP on Olivia is not helping your plan IMO; at least without a reason as to why)
Okay, I'll try.
Give me a couple minutes.
 
Crime exist so long as the rewards outpace the risk involved in it. The advancement in tech and capabilities of police is why crime is has fallen so sharply over the last 60 or so years.
I find this misleading. The usual reference crime is homicide (very hard to fudge a dead body) which has fallen over the past 60 years partly because of advancement in medical tech that helps shot or stab victims survive, very little to do with police. The 60-year timeframe is also selective reporting for America because crime rose sharply in the 1960s and you're measuring from a peak. America has a higher homicide rate now than it did in 1950.
 
I do not understand the system: Can you give me a (mostly) fair breakdown of the difference between the two plans? (And banking XP on Olivia is not helping your plan IMO; at least without a reason as to why)
Okay, here goes:
++++++++++
VOTE
[X]Plan Shadow Clones
-[X]Molly: 40xp
--[X]Splintered Gale Incarnation: 20xp
--[X]Sandstrike Blast: 8xp
--[X]Countermagic 2/4(Human + Vampire): 6xp
--[X]Ox-Body Technique 3: 3xp
--[X]By Rage Recast 3: Swift Stride: 3xp
--[X]Lash raise Stamina to 5
--[X]Remaining Bank: 1xp
-[X]Lash: 11xp
--[X]Investment: Fomor Power: Numbing 1: +3HL + wound penalty negation [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
--[X]Investment: Special Advantage 6: Regrowth: [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
--[X]Investment: Special Advantage 5: Soak Aggravated Damage [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
--[X]Lore of Light 2: Bend Light: 5 XP
--[X]Occult Aptitude: 3XP
--[X]Countermagic 1/4(Spirit): 3xp
-[X]Lydia: 11xp + Molly 1
--[X]Occult 2: 2xp
--[X]Ox-Body 4: 3xp
--[X]Devil Fighter/Mo Kung 2: Dragon Speed: 4xp
--[X]Countermagic 1/4 (Fae): 3xp
--[X]Lash raise Stamina to 5
-[X]Olivia: 11xp
--[X]Lash raise Stamina to 5
--[X]Bank XP

[X] Plan: courtly debut v2
-[X] Molly, 37 XP
--[X] Splintered Gale Incarnation (•••••), 20 XP
--[X] Counterspell: human, 3 XP
--[X] Emergency Minion Hologram, 4 XP
--[X] Digital Possessions Management, 4XP
--[X] Shadow Spite Curse (••), 6 XP
-[X] Lydia, 12 XP
--[X] Counterspell: Spirit, 3 XP
--[X] Excellency: Wits, 3 XP
--[X] Akashic Root Methodology (••), 6 XP
-[X] Lash, 12 XP
--[X] Lore of Humanity 1, 7 XP
--[X] Lore of Light 2, 5 XP
--[X]Investment: Fomor Power: Numbing 1: +3HL + wound penalty negation [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
--[X]Investment: Special Advantage 6: Regrowth: [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
--[X]Investment: Special Advantage 5: Soak Aggravated Damage [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
-[X] Olivia, 12 XP
--[X] Counterspell: Human, 3 XP
--[X] Counterspell: Fae, 3 XP
--[X] Psychoportation 3, 6 XP
These are the two plans.
Yog can speak for himself, but one of my major guiding principles was shoring up our ability to survive after pulling aggro from a Yama King. Just in case Mikaboshi got one of his reckless impulses. Or any of the people we aggro'd took a swing.

Keep that in mind while looking at what I write.



Where the plans are similar:
Both have the Clone charm for Molly.
Both have the Investments for Lash, improving her ability to take and survive damage; I introduced them, Yog copied them.

We both invest in counterspelling; we both think everyone should have all 4x types of counterspelling, but we disagree on the order. Difference of opinion, but neither of us is arguing that counterspelling is bad, just who needs which type immediately.

====
GENERAL
I vote for Molly, Lydia and Olivia to all get Lash to upgrade them to Stamina 5. This is a survivability upgrade, because stamina affects Soak.

I put it explicitly in the plan because this is the only place where we get to give anybody other than Molly instructions for the turn; we have no control over how the rest spend their AP.
Which is a deliberate QM choice.

Yog does not do this. I think this is an egregious omission.

====
MOLLY
I vote for Sandstrike Blast, basically Superman eyebeams/ FSN Saber swordbeams with a range of 60 yards, in order to give Molly an ability to hit people who arent in melee or who she cant reach either because she cant move or they're fast. I also give her more HP(Ox Body) and more speed(Swift Stride) because these were issues recently.

And I give Molly both human and vampire counterspelling immediately, because I remember the Dragon almost murdering a good chunk of Vegas with vampire magic, and I dont want to take that risk again.

=
Yog doesnt think she needs more range or speed or health.

He spends 8XP on two homebrew charms. One for a inventory charm, and the other for a hologram minion charm.
I've criticized them as unbalanced before both mechanically and narratively, but I didnt have the spare time and effort to do a full breakdown for them like I did for the first one. The hologram charm is particularly unnecessary.

He spends 6xp on Shadow Spite Curse, which is a nice charm, but one whose prime utility is trying to dox Nemesis.
Now thats a very useful thing, but that has no nearterm utility.
And I am pretty sure we will never get much use out of it outside of that under these circumstances.

Its not a charm we need this turn. We're not going looking for Nemesis this turn.
And we arent yet at the point where we can survive the sort of heat we are risking there; if Nemesis or a Great Walker pulls a Cold Days in response, we're not really equipped for it.


====
LASH
I prioritized one thing: Her survival. Lore of Light 2: Blind enables invisibility, and to put up mirages/smokescreens against people trying to shoot at her while she runs away. Countermagic(Spirit) so she can counterspell any Denarian magic that was used against her by the Fallen. This also makes her good at counterspelling Outsider magic, because they are spirits as well.

And Occult Aptitude(Ability Aptitude: Occult) which makes counterspelling easier by reducing the DC.
She's got the second biggest counterspelling dicepool after Molly because she can buff herself fast, so allowing her to be good at it seemed a good idea.

=
Yog went with Lore of Humanity 1(universal translator for mortals) and Lore of Light 2(invisibility, mirage)
They arent bad choices, but I wouldnt have gone with Humanity 1 yet.
Not under these circumstances, after pulling aggro from a Yama King.

====
LYDIA
This is the one I most disagree with after Molly.

I focused on improving Lydia's combat ability.
Lydia if you'll remember was struggling to choke out a mortal in Vegas at the club. She needed to spend an Excellency to choke out a mortal at the club. So I think she needs to improve her organic abilities as a matter of urgency.

I give her more Occult, because her Occult was too low for her to permakill akuma in Hell, or to use her escape charm. Remember that her ability to permakill stuff is how she regens Essence in combat, so its a critical ability for her to be able to use it anywhere she needs to.

I also give her more HP(Ox Body) and Shih Art: Dragon Speed, which increases her Dexterity for the scene, in order to make her both a better fighter and a faster runner.


Yog does not invest in Lydia's combat ability at all. He chooses to invest in utility.
Akashic Method is a great charm, which helps you retrieve information that isnt hidden as long as you have access to a library/the internet/an expert. But its not an immediate priority right now.

And the Wits Excellency is frankly unnecessary IMO, for someone with as little Essence as Lydia, and who doesnt regen like Molly does out of combat. IMO.


====
OLIVIA
I banked because she has 11 XP, and the cost of raising a Discipline is (Current Rating*15)
To raise her Iron Mountain from 1 to 2 would cost 15XP.
There were other Sorcery Paths available, but no early consensus or suggestions then, so I saved it instead.


Yog chose to invest instead in her teleportation. Not sure why.
And Counterspelling, which she didnt need for community policing right now.
 
The Gifts you quoted are Tier 6 and 4 respectively though?

6 is legendary, beyond most PCs, nevermind some Formor.
And even 4 is still pretty high up there, definitely over 2?
Yes.
This is an E4 Solaroid investing Essence in her own magical clone/doppelganger.
I expect them to be particularly compatible, and to express that accordingly.

Remember: in origin, Garou/Fera Gifts are GIFTS.
They are taught/bestowed by others to/on the shapeshifters.
 
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