Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[BronzeTongue]

That really does not track the vast majority of orginazed crime money is drug money nowadays. Does not matter how well marcone runs his crime he would be outcompeted by those that do deal in drugs. Their just no overcoming the vast difference in money from drugs.

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I don't fucking know man but it's canon. Also you know he kills those who do so it's not like they continue to be competition forever. Also he has legitimate business on top of his illegitimate stuff.

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He does sell drugs and almost anything else you could imagine buying. He just has some very specific rules about who can be involved. The biggest one is no kids can be involved anywhere at all. The people on the street level are held responsible for keeping it clean on pain of death, no excuses.

Edit:

I'd like to point out that it is, in fact, perfectly within Molly's capabilities to eliminate illegal activities within Chicago. It would take effort that is probably better spent elsewhere, but it's possible

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I don't think so. Molly could stomp any individual situation, but crime is an emergent property of demand for illegal services. We can't consistently keep the information and physical access to do this kind of thing over the whole city and trying would trigger a major conflict as we effectively try to conquer a major modern city out in the open.

 

[uju32]

No? Molly could take everyone under Marcone's employ personally even if they were all armed with a bazookas and rocket launchers. Her code name was well chosen. His gang stands less chance then Lex would against Superman.

Of course we could also just use ATP to walk up to Marcone and kill/abduct/enslave before anyone knows what even happened.

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It doesnt really matter.

Molly can kill Marcone. Dresden can kill Marcone and destroy his organization. Killing him has never been the issue; filling the organized crime vacuum is, because the demand remains, and in the Dresdenverse, its been regularly used by the Red Court and the Fomor. Better him than a Red Court pawn.

Molly does not have the stomach for running drugs and sex and gambling.

The bomb collar is for CCC. Again, I don't trust those powers against our level of opposition. If our lower key defensive abilities against possession and mind magic can be propagated through, but I'm not going to be convinced a werewolf gift is up to resisting a cosmic level force of corruption and subversion.

It's not that the gifts are bad exactly, but we've got the personal attention of big leagues specialists in exactly this. If it's possible at all I expect that thing to figure out how to do it.

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Those Gifts were supposed to work against the Wyrm and Wyrm-backed opposition.
Im reasonably sure they'll work fine against anything short of an unrestricted higher-Celestine-class spirit.

I'd like to point out that it is, in fact, perfectly within Molly's capabilities to eliminate illegal activities within Chicago. It would take effort that is probably better spent elsewhere, but it's possible.

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No it isnt.

Its in her power to destroy organized crime organizations in Chicago. Its not within her power to destroy the demand for the services they provide, like illegal gambling, drugs, money laundering and sex work, and while the demand remains, new organizations will rise to service it. And any of those with occult backing will have a competitive advantage.

Marcone keeps the Red Court out of Chicago's underworld.

In one of the previous interludes Harry was mentally complaining that Ebenezar didn't give Lash the shovel speech. He did warn her that he'll come after her if she gives him cause. it was implied that Lash knew about Blackstaff, and Ebenezar knew Lash knew.

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Of couse she knows about the Blackstaff, she was in his head when Ebenezar told Harry about it.
They werent talking yet, but she was there.

Thing is, I think Ebenezar has a good idea she's a nephilim, and there are very few potential sources of new nephilim in 2007.
And only one of those has been known to have had encounters with Dresden in the last ten years.
He doesnt know the details, of course, but he can make guesses.

Hence that comment about Harry's luck having been stolen from Mister's nine lives.

 

[BronzeTongue]

Those Gifts were supposed to work against the Wyrm and Wyrm-backed opposition.
Im reasonably sure they'll work fine against anything short of an unrestricted higher-Celestine-class spirit.

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Nemesis is a major Celestine class entity. We've disagreed before, but my read on this situation is essentially that we've drawn the personal hatred of an evil Uriel who's power is limited by the fact that it has to actively hide from the good one. That is the basis of my arguments about this and I haven't found any of the arguments directly contradicting WoJ compelling.

Especially since the fomor exist in the setting already and almost certainly have access to the same kit. It shouldn't be that easy or they'd be brokering that ability for a seat at the big kids' table.

 

[TheGrape]

Uh, if Marcone gets taken out, nobody's gonna move in.

'Cause Chicago is Molly's. The Fae Courts wouldn't move in out of respect for a peer (they hold the Nevernever, Molly holds the mortal world). The White Court has a peace treaty (thank goodness, all the Whampires whimper). The Red Court knows better than to piss off Molly again. Fucking Drakul would be wary of wandering into Chicago, considering Dresden and Michael are right there to provide backup for Molly.

Mundane crime would be an issue, yes. Supernaturals trying to move in to fill the empty space? Hell no. Molly's way too fat big-boned for someone else to try and fit into her city with her.

 

[BoredMan]

Marcone keeps the Red Court out of Chicago's underworld.

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Kind of like how gut bacteria in your body can keep the more dangerous one's away by taking up resources and space.

The Red Court knows better than to piss off Molly again

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These are the same guys that are being led by a senile old vamp and are dumb and desperate enough to make deals with Outsiders. It's kind of up in the air what they will or won't do because you can't account for stupid. It's moreso a question of what would they stand to gain by doing so.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

I don't think so. Molly could stomp any individual situation, but crime is an emergent property of demand for illegal services. We can't consistently keep the information and physical access to do this kind of thing over the whole city and trying would trigger a major conflict as we effectively try to conquer a major modern city out in the open.

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Crime exist so long as the rewards outpace the risk involved in it. The advancement in tech and capabilities of police is why crime is has fallen so sharply over the last 60 or so years. If we got ETE and used it, suddenly the cost benefit of crime changes to be completely nonviable on all levels. Police would go from having to spend months or years to bust a major crime organization to, just days to weeks, as evidence, turncoats, and leaks suddenly become the norm.

 

[Zoolimar]

To deal with Marcone you need police department or FBI to be able to pin him down and most of his organization too. And then the Police department to be much more effective in his absence. Especially in the matters of dealing with supernatural.

Mundane crime would be an issue, yes. Supernaturals trying to move in to fill the empty space? Hell no. Molly's way too fat big-boned for someone else to try and fit into her city with her.

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Big players won't rock the boat unless they have some kind of plan but small and desperate ones? Absolutely would. Molly can take some of them in, like she did with ghouls and whampires but it won't work with everyone. And she doesn't have the time to police Chicago against all the street level incursions.

Molly's problem is that she doesn't have a proper organization of her own established yet Earth-side and pulling in guys from Five Courts on a permanent basis is a diplomatic incident in the making.

Now if we shape Order of Cauldron into a more effective organization (Olivia wants it already) and make them work with Special Investigations it may be possible to rebuff future intrusions on a more permanent basis. But you need at least a dozen people like Olivia and probably two-three dozens cops with minor investigative powers, on top of minor practitioners in consulting roles, to make it even close to possible.

 

[TheGrape]

What's so great about Chicago that would have random low-tier supernaturals decide to move into the city that belongs to a Godslayer? Seriously, even if Marcone isn't there, Molly's reputation alone is enough to ward off most minor nuisances.

 

[uju32]

Nemesis is a major Celestine class entity. We've disagreed before, but my read on this situation is essentially that we've drawn the personal hatred of an evil Uriel who's power is limited by the fact that it has to actively hide from the good one. That is the basis of my arguments about this and I haven't found any of the arguments directly contradicting WoJ compelling.

Especially since the fomor exist in the setting already and almost certainly have access to the same kit. It shouldn't be that easy or they'd be brokering that ability for a seat at the big kids' table.

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Gaffling. Jaggling. Incarna. Celestine. Those are the spirit classifications in power, lowest to highest.
To be clear, the Wyrm of Werewolf The Apocalypse is a Celestine.

I dont think Nemesis is in the same class of entity.
I think he fulfills the same role for his side that Uriel does for Heaven, but I dont think they are equivalent in power.
And Uriel is not on that scale of spirit power at all; he's off it.

Uh, if Marcone gets taken out, nobody's gonna move in.

'Cause Chicago is Molly's. The Fae Courts wouldn't move in out of respect for a peer (they hold the Nevernever, Molly holds the mortal world). The White Court has a peace treaty (thank goodness, all the Whampires whimper). The Red Court knows better than to piss off Molly again. Fucking Drakul would be wary of wandering into Chicago, considering Dresden and Michael are right there to provide backup for Molly.

Mundane crime would be an issue, yes. Supernaturals trying to move in to fill the empty space? Hell no. Molly's way too fat big-boned for someone else to try and fit into her city with her.

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Of course people are going to move in.
Because Molly does not have the stomach to provide the services that organized crime does, and so organized crime will move in. Chicago is the third biggest city in the US; you might as well try to stop the tide from coming in.

And of course supernaturals will move in. Human pawns are cheap.

There's Red Court-owned businesses in Chicago right now, owned at several removes even though they promised to keep Rampires out of the city; the late and unlamented Duchess Arianna Ortega was canonically Harry Dresden's office landlady by the time of Changes, and amused herself by turning up the rent as high as she thought she could get away with.

 

[Ivar]

I think we should meet Marcone one day and explain to him the number of Divisions at our disposal. And then deal with the situation. I hope at least that diplomacy will prevail.

 

[uju32]

What's so great about Chicago that would have random low-tier supernaturals decide to move into the city that belongs to a Godslayer? Seriously, even if Marcone isn't there, Molly's reputation alone is enough to ward off most minor nuisances.

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Its the third biggest city in the US, after NYC and LA, and the major anchor of the 50-million plus Great Lakes metropolitan area.
Its a major road, rail, air and water transportation hub, as well as a supernatural transportation nexus in the NeverNever.
The Fae Courts have the Stone Table directly linked to this city.

Chicago is Serious Business.

 

[TheGrape]

Its the third biggest city in the US, after NYC and LA, and the major anchor of the 50-million plus Great Lakes metropolitan area.
Its a major road, rail, air and water transportation hub, as well as a supernatural transportation nexus in the NeverNever.
The Fae Courts have the Stone Table directly linked to this city.

Chicago is Serious Business.

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Again, none of that matters to low-tier supernaturals. Anything they could get in Chicago could be found elsewhere without a Molly Kaiju-stomping them intentionally/accidentally.

 

[Goldfish]

Here we go again...

What do y'all honestly expect to happen if we remove Marcone from Chicago? For the entire metropolitan area to suddenly undergo a Star Trek style cultural renaissance, with Federation ideals magically taking over?

That isn't what will happen. Nature abhors a vacuum, folks, and if we create a great big criminal vacuum in Chicago, it's going to suck in a lot of criminals all vying for their piece of the underworld pie. Drugs, prostitution, human trafficking, etc., are all things Marcone regulates, and more importantly mitigates, to one extent or another.

This isn't supposition, it's a 100% guarantee. Crime in the city will get worse, it will get more violent, and more people will be victimized. Pretending otherwise is naive.

 

[DragonParadox]

What's so great about Chicago that would have random low-tier supernaturals decide to move into the city that belongs to a Godslayer? Seriously, even if Marcone isn't there, Molly's reputation alone is enough to ward off most minor nuisances.

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I mean... are you planning to run drugs and guns? Because there is a market for both and unless you somehow prevent anyone for selling both of them someone is going to move in to fill the niche. They do not have to be sensible or particularly survivable in the long run, but they will try. Chicago is a wealthy city with a lot of customers.

 

[Zoolimar]

Again, none of that matters to low-tier supernaturals. Anything they could get in Chicago could be found elsewhere without a Molly Kaiju-stomping them intentionally/accidentally.

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One Kaiju is way less dangerous than multiple smaller predators fighting for territory. Kaiju is busy with Kaiju matters and if you keep your head down probably won't bother looking down to see what crawls under its feet.

 

[Degorium]

Here we go again...

What do y'all honestly expect to happen if we remove Marcone from Chicago? For the entire metropolitan area to suddenly undergo a Star Trek style cultural renaissance, with Federation ideals magically taking over?

That isn't what will happen. Nature abhors a vacuum, folks, and if we create a great big criminal vacuum in Chicago, it's going to suck in a lot of criminals all vying for their piece of the underworld pie. Drugs, prostitution, human trafficking, etc., are all things Marcone regulates, and more importantly mitigates, to one extent or another.

This isn't supposition, it's a 100% guarantee. Crime in the city will get worse, it will get more violent, and more people will be victimized. Pretending otherwise is naive.

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Don't you know that systemic change is bad./ s in all seriousness as an exalted and as someone of the Modern Age we should probably study up a little bit before we get into that. In real life all these crimes and most of the drug pressure Behavior comes from the fact that there is an unfulfilled need and illegal/ criminal Enterprises fulfill that unfulfilled need.

The puritanical illegalization of prostitution prevents government and local protection of sexual workers which leads to sex trafficking and people going missing as these people who are downtrodden are unaccounted for both monetarily and systematically. The illegalization of drugs rather than regulation and general safety standards leads to people dying and people still taking drugs but nothing being done about it as people slip under the radar or go to prison.

Marcone is a symptom of a fundamentally broken system based on faulty assumptions to begin with. The fact of the matter is at the moment he's a moderating and decent influence in a unfortunately shit situation. In an Ideal World he wouldn't even have a foothold or he would he would just be a normal business person who has to follow laws and regulations in both the kinds of drugs and the treatment of sexual workers and his employees never mind the average citizen.

If we want to displace Marcone or actually deal with the elements that he is currently moderating then we should probably figure out or place our political candidates for the entire political body of the state of Illinois. Then protect them with our Supernatural might and further their goals so no red, white, black or Jade vampire nor any for more can take advantage of these gaps anymore. Nor can they try to sabotage our candidates in these changes. But that will require us to do something other than be a beat stick so you know take it with a massive grain of salt.

 

[TheGrape]

Yeah, I understand that mundane crime wouldn't go away, but why would supernaturals have to be involved? Anybody can run guns and drugs, it might be worse than when Marcone ran it, but I can't see a lot of supernatural beings deciding to risk it all just for cash, especially since by virtue of their nature they have a much higher chance of getting slaughtered by Molly than mundane criminals have of getting caught by the cops.

 

[firefrog600]

I mean I don't think killing marcone would fix anything. But guys the vacuum argument is real stupid in my opinion this isn't a fucking comic book world vacuums have limits things can't be endlessly refilled. Mind you in this case they could but people often exaggerate how much a vacuum can be filled when you keep murdering those coming in which I don't wanna deal with but the way people treat them is ridiculous. Keep in mind I have zero desire to kill marcone.

 

[uju32]

I think we should meet Marcone one day and explain to him the number of Divisions at our disposal. And then deal with the situation. I hope at least that diplomacy will prevail.

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Why? Gard is his adviser; he knows very well what tier of threat Molly rates as.


Back during the Museum case, when Molly had no cred, Marcone's bodyguard Hendricks delivered us and Gard to the Nazi barbershop, got us out of Undertown, and later got us to and from the museum.

Since then?
The man turned a blind eye to Molly using one of his fronts to access Undertown to feed her ghouls and other people until Molly created her own entrance.

Courtesy begets courtesy, even with hardened criminals.
Im going to vote to stay out of his business until and unless he gives us reason to. Especially since we have no actual solution for crime in Chicago.

Again, none of that matters to low-tier supernaturals. Anything they could get in Chicago could be found elsewhere without a Molly Kaiju-stomping them intentionally/accidentally.

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No they cant.
Most supernaturals are symbiotic with human populations; you find them around people, not out in the bush.

Other major nexuses are either not contiguous with major human populations, or appear to be claimed; Chitechen Itza is held by the Red Court, and Edinburgh by the White Council. Chicago has a large human population, and is unclaimed, with multiple major powers conspiring to keep it that way.

Molly is a player, but its a big pond, and she's only one of several people with an interest in the city.
Winter is here. Summer is here. The Svartalfar are here. The White Court is here. There's at least one demigod I know of in the city right now keeping a moderately low profile.

 

[firefrog600]

Why? Gard is his adviser; he knows very well what tier of threat Molly rates as.


Back during the Museum case, when Molly had no cred, Marcone's bodyguard Hendricks delivered us and Gard to the Nazi barbershop, got us out of Undertown, and later got us to and from the museum.

Since then?
The man turned a blind eye to Molly using one of his fronts to access Undertown to feed her ghouls and other people until Molly created her own entrance.

Courtesy begets courtesy, even with hardened criminals.
Im going to vote to stay out of his business until and unless he gives us reason to. Especially since we have no actual solution for crime in Chicago.

No they cant.
Most supernaturals are symbiotic with human populations; you find them around people, not out in the bush.

Other major nexuses are either not contiguous with major human populations, or appear to be claimed; Chitechen Itza is held by the Red Court, and Edinburgh by the White Council. Chicago has a large human population, and is unclaimed, with multiple major powers conspiring to keep it that way.

Molly is a player, but its a big pond, and she's only one of several people with an interest in the city.
Winter is here. Summer is here. The Svartalfar are here. The White Court is here. There's at least one demigod I know of in the city right now keeping a moderately low profile.

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Not to discount what your saying but I'm fairly sure there are far more nexuses than just those in the world like a lot lot more.

 

[Zoolimar]

If we want to displace Marcone or actually deal with the elements that he is currently moderating then we should probably figure out or place our political candidates for the entire political body of the state of Illinois. Then protect them with our Supernatural might and further their goals so no red, white, black or Jade vampire nor any for more can take advantage of these gaps anymore. Nor can they try to sabotage our candidates in these changes. But that will require us to do something other than be a beat stick so you know take it with a massive grain of salt.

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I should note that this would be an absolute political clusterfuck. Since while Molly is an US citizen she is also a head of a foreign nation with 5 billion people!
Just for propriety sake will need to have someone else doing at least the mundane part of scouting candidates, even if Molly already used her own methods to choose them beforehand.

 

[DragonParadox]

Good night guys, see you tomorrow with a profusion of Mollies.

 

[uju32]

Yeah, I understand that mundane crime wouldn't go away, but why would supernaturals have to be involved? Anybody can run guns and drugs, it might be worse than when Marcone ran it, but I can't see a lot of supernatural beings deciding to risk it all just for cash, especially since by virtue of their nature they have a much higher chance of getting slaughtered by Molly than mundane criminals have of getting caught by the cops.

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Because Mortals make the world go around, and supernaturals are drawn to the activity.
They like music and good food and drink and movies and books. There's entire races whose lives revolve around mortal artifice, like the cobs, who basically live for fixing shoes.

Those in crime arent often there for the money; they are there for excitement, power and influence.

Kaiju Molly is just another hazard, and not even a particularly new or dangerous one by the standards of people who used to live with the potential for Maeve or the Leanansidhe walking through.
Especially since Molly is not a particularly homicidal person.

You're basically asking why Americans go to Mexico despite all the drug violence.
Its fun, its profitable.

 

[BronzeTongue]

Uh, if Marcone gets taken out, nobody's gonna move in.

'Cause Chicago is Molly's. The Fae Courts wouldn't move in out of respect for a peer (they hold the Nevernever, Molly holds the mortal world). The White Court has a peace treaty (thank goodness, all the Whampires whimper). The Red Court knows better than to piss off Molly again. Fucking Drakul would be wary of wandering into Chicago, considering Dresden and Michael are right there to provide backup for Molly.

Mundane crime would be an issue, yes. Supernaturals trying to move in to fill the empty space? Hell no. Molly's way too fat big-boned for someone else to try and fit into her city with her.

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You sure about that? Let's not get too impressed with ourselves, or assume people will pick whatever is convenient for us just because. Molly has done a lot of impressive stuff, but I think you're getting a little high on our own supply.

A good data point to remember is the relative impact of draconian punishments. There's a point past which people are psychologically bad at risk assessment and become convinced they won't get caught. Mikaboshi couldn't keep a perfect grip in his own hell, we shouldn't assume we can just knock over whatever we like and force it to fall how we want it to.

We can gain a lot of influence and control over our core territory, but that's not the same thing as defeating crime and reigning without any opposition.

Crime exist so long as the rewards outpace the risk involved in it. The advancement in tech and capabilities of police is why crime is has fallen so sharply over the last 60 or so years. If we got ETE and used it, suddenly the cost benefit of crime changes to be completely nonviable on all levels. Police would go from having to spend months or years to bust a major crime organization to, just days to weeks, as evidence, turncoats, and leaks suddenly become the norm.

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Mikaboshi couldn't perfectly watch everyone in his own hell. We can reduce things, but that's not the same as beating them. ETE would become progressively less useful as order broke down in our targets if nothing else.

There's also the ethical level to this. Do we really want to indulge Molly's worst impulses around invading the lives of everyone around her to finish the job?

Gaffling. Jaggling. Incarna. Celestine. Those are the spirit classifications in power, lowest to highest.
To be clear, the Wyrm of Werewolf The Apocalypse is a Celestine.

I dont think Nemesis is in the same class of entity.
I think he fulfills the same role for his side that Uriel does for Heaven, but I dont think they are equivalent in power.
And Uriel is not on that scale of spirit power at all; he's off it.

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I'm familiar with the levels here, I just thing your read of this citation ties itself in knots to make it say something other than what it says:

HHWB, being a Walker, is an outsider on a power level similar to Uriel. He can do all KINDS of stuff. But also has a lot of weird limits as to when and where he can use his power.

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Cite.

On a power level similar to Uriel has one reasonable interpretation; their abilities are close enough in strength to make the comparison reasonable.

The question that got this answer was about pure ability and not role. It unambiguously puts the major Outer Knights at the archangel level.

Evil Uriel with even weirder rules than normal is the exact level to prep for.

 

[Degorium]

I should note that this would be an absolute political clusterfuck. Since while Molly is an US citizen she is also a head of a foreign nation with 5 billion people!
Just for propriety sake will need to have someone else doing at least the mundane part of scouting candidates, even if Molly already used her own methods to choose them beforehand.

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To be honest as a born American citizen she has more of a right even while being a monarch of a sovereign state to have a voice in US elections then most of the people who have a voice in US elections Those ads don't pay for themselves Mega Corporation despite being literal International entities that are purely focused on profit directly contribute to the coffers of political campaigns. So too be honest we literally could just form a super Pac and pick candidates based on our own Crown questions.