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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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DragonParadox said:
Your argument seems to be that the reason a war against Marienburg would not have a moral high ground is that sabotage and tariffs are not worse than a war of conquest. So Hypothetically if we could do to Marienburg what they did to those other towns and villages i.e. get them brutally murdered by Norscans we paid off and have them starve because we strangled their trade that would be fine? All's well as long as our hands are not directly stained red.

That does not seem to track.
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No? Where on earth did you get that?

I explicitly said that Marienburg doesn't have the moral high ground in this conflict either. Switching to their methods would not give one to the Empire.
 
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Blackout said:
No? Where on earth did you get that?

I explicitly said that Marienburg doesn't have the moral high ground in this conflict either. Switching to their methods would not give one to the Empire.
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But they did it and by all accounts they intend to continue it. If inaction is moral than it would follow that it is the moral choice to allow imperial citizens to continue to suffer that fate, raids, death and destitution. Refusing to act on clear decades-long provocation is also a moral judgement, that judgement being 'Marienburg's actions upon towns up and down the Sea of Claws were justified'.

Personally I think the moral action is to remove the leadership that has placed their own wealth and power above not just the prosperity and security of their neighbors, but the very lives of their citizens.

Should Marienburg's stance shift that judgement would need reassessing, but for right now Marienburng is a hostile actor and should be treated as such in future imperial planning.
 
DragonParadox said:
But they did it and by all accounts they intend to continue it. If inaction is moral than it would follow that it is the moral choice to allow imperial citizens to continue to suffer that fate, raids, death and destitution. Refusing to act on clear decades-long provocation is also a moral judgement, that judgement being 'Marienburg's actions upon towns up and down the Sea of Claws were justified'.

Personally I think the moral action is to remove the leadership that has placed their own wealth and power above not just the prosperity and security of their neighbors, but the very lives of their citizens.

Should Marienburg's stance shift that judgement would need reassessing, but for right now Marienburng is a hostile actor and should be treated as such in future imperial planning.
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Do remind me where I said that inaction is the morally correct choice?

I seem to recall arguing that moral justifications are ultimately circular, and that neither Marienburg nor the Empire is in the right in this conflict.
 
Blackout said:
Do remind me where I said that inaction is the morally correct choice?

I seem to recall arguing that moral justifications are ultimately circular, and that neither Marienburg nor the Empire is in the right in this conflict.
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That's an interesting claim, though not one I think we should follow given the consequences. If morality holds no sway over this conflict (or all international conflict) for whatever reason, all action and inaction are equal then the very concept should be ignored which... well it would not lead to very positive outcomes, lets put it like this.
 
[X] No
-[X] Specify why:
--[X] Add another clause, inserted before the currently final Clause 8:
--[X] A Clause pushing for some commitment between signatories to maintain participation in a forum where waystone information can be shared. The commitment doesn't have to be as in-depth as the current Waystone Project, but it should basically act as a backstop to make it easier to create a "Waystone Project 2.0" if the need arises once again some centuries down the line, and reduce the chances of the project falling apart if Mathilde gets killed in the near future. Having a diplomatic line open should reduce the chances of hostilities between parties, too.
--[X] Have the clauses be denoted with Classical numbering, such that the final Clause is denoted with an "IX".

[X] No
-[X] Clause 6 should be ammended to include the following statement: "The Library of Kron-Azril-Ungol shall serve as the primary archives for this knowledge, to preserve the understanding of waystones against time and destruction. We will not repeat the mistakes of our forebears, who allowed this knowledge to slip from their fingers."
-[X] Two Additional clauses should be added before the final clause:
--[X] The Signatories are encouraged to send representatives to sit on a multinational Waystone Council. This council will be lead by a Chairperson elected by those representatives, with a term length to be determined by the council. The primary charter of the council will be to monitor and observe the network in all domains belonging to the Signatories, the research and development of waystones, the recording and preservation of all lore relating to waystones, and to advise the Signatories on all matters relating to waystones.
--[X] The Waystone Council will be hosted in the nation its Chair represents, and they may request appropriate facilities from their host to conduct their work.
-[X] The clauses shall be numbered with classical numerals, with the final clause, naming the patron gods of the Accords, being numbered with an "X", to subtly honour Ranald.
 
[X] No
-[X] Specify why:
--[X] Add another clause, inserted before the currently final Clause 8:
--[X] A Clause pushing for some commitment between signatories to maintain participation in a forum where waystone information can be shared. The commitment doesn't have to be as in-depth as the current Waystone Project, but it should basically act as a backstop to make it easier to create a "Waystone Project 2.0" if the need arises once again some centuries down the line, and reduce the chances of the project falling apart if Mathilde gets killed in the near future. Having a diplomatic line open should reduce the chances of hostilities between parties, too.
--[X] Have the clauses be denoted with Classical numbering, such that the final Clause is denoted with an "IX".
 
[X] Yes
-[X] Find a way to subtly honor Ranald and Halétha in the final copy of the Accords.

[X] Yes
-[X] Have the scribe make the stylistic choice to use roman numerals instead of numbers. Specifically having 8 become IIX.

[X] No
-[X] Specify why:
--[X] Add another clause, inserted before the currently final Clause 8:
--[X] A clause protecting Waystone infrastructure in case of wars and battles. The Waystone network can be fought over, but not intentionally damaged or destroyed.
 
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Eisenhelm said:
i like how the dicussion on the very importand multinational and multidiciplinary diplomatic document took a backseat to debate just how much we should hate marienburg and get back a them.
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Gonna be honest, I really do not like it. I've enjoyed the times we've poked fun at Marienburg in the past, but much of the current discussion seems to be come from a genuine place of hatred for a fictional city in a fictional story. And we've just won this conflict: With a second canal to the north, Marienburg's monopoly is capial-O Over. Yet somehow this isn't enough, and we need to justify numerous reasons to invade the city and conquer it. But like. Wars are so expensive and wasteful, it makes digging a canal look cheap. Which is what we just did. So what is the point of everyone getting themselves so worked up about Marienburg?
 
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