Usagi Quest (CK3/Princess Maker) (Sailor Moon)

Chaosmancer · Sep 10, 2023

Phht said:
Cologne is not the sole leader of her village. If a majority of the rest disagree, then it won't happen. We can't assume the opinions of the other Elders. For all we know, they'll agree to change things to get the village evacuated, then be really lackluster on enforcing the "ban" on the Kisses, if they actually bother to officially change the laws.

Technically true, but also... While this is "real world" this is also a story. Lunaryon has been listening to us in the comments. Cologne's commentary is not just the opinion of a single elder of the village, but also a message from the author. After all, we don't KNOW the other elders. They don't exist in Ranma fiction to my knowledge.

So yes, it isn't a guarantee, but it would be highly unusual for Lunaryon to take one of our BIGGEST concerns about this situation, have one of the only known authorities on it tell us it won't be an issue, and then pull the rug from under us.

Phht said:
So we should go from squad leader level leadership skills straight to battalion/regiment command because we'll need large groups of people eventually? OR jump right into building/running a city without any of the support structures that cities have, potentially within the territory of a friendly nation?

Or to put it another way, we're already in AP Hell. Taking them as our clients will worsen our AP Hell until we get things sorted out or whatever. While we're in the middle of trying to stop Beryl from ending the world. Can't this wait until the turn after we shank Beryl and Metallia? We, technically, have all the time in the world to deal with the time traveler bad guys, so some AP Hell issues at that time wouldn't be so bad.

Yes but no.

See, there is a major factor you aren't accounting for. We won't be the leaders of the Amazons. This is absolutely key to my point. The Council of Elders will still exist and still run the Amazons. Bertha doesn't have enough iron to make her knuckle dusters? That will likely still be handled by Cologne just like it always was.

Think of it this way, since we want to conceive of this in a feudal manner. We are the King, the Council of Elders are the nobles. Day to day problems and concerns still go to them. It is only after that level, that we get things to handle. This is literally better than most of our other current recruitment options, because there is an established leadership that wants to join us and is competent.

And, again, we are in AP Hell. Waiting til after Beryl is silly, because we know that seconds after we blast her the Time Travelers are planning to attack us. And then we will likely hit Nehelenia. And Egypt is currently trying to assassinate Naru, and we will have to deal with China and Russia and the Knights of Oblivion have been too quiet, and and and. There will never be a stretch of peace where we will have less things to do. It won't happen.

HOWEVER, getting a large supply of people to throw at a problem? Being able to say "man, we really want to help the Oni since their mountain was blown up and collapsed... can we just send 100 amazons to help with the clean up?" is HUGE in terms of our AP Hell. I don't want to say there are no problems with this plan, but I think if we can navigate a little crunch now, we can get massive dividends down the line, when we really need them.

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RadiantPhoenix said:
I feel like there's at least three groups of people voting for clientage:

People who want to expand our polity as quickly as possible

People who think that doing it now is the only way the Amazons will have anything resembling safety and stability.

People who think that failing to offer this now means alienating them in some way

Have I missed anything?

Yes. People who think this is a good time, not just expanding as quickly as possible. People who find this idea *interesting*. Dealing with the idea of patronage is more interesting to me than not. People who see this as a solution to our manpower problems we consistently have.

I also don't see ANYONE voting for #3, and I barely see anyone putting it forth for #2, so I'm not sure why those are in your top three.

RadiantPhoenix said:
The structure of the options and what's been said implies that even if us offering clientage is the only way the Amazons will ever have a home again (which I suspect is NOT true), we can offer that later, once we have established that this is the case.

And I think that group 3, if anyone's in that group, is basically ignoring the actual explicit text of the update and options.

I don't think anyone has missed these points. And no one seems to support position #3

ReaperofInterest · Sep 10, 2023

[X] Promise to help the Amazons flee China. Do not offer them clientage.

I do want to help them, but we're in deep enough AP Hell that I also don't want to make them clients immediately. I'd prefer to do some more research on their culture, then make that decision.

Simon_Jester · Sep 10, 2023

Alchemist767676 said:
However, it should be emphasized that this is before any of them have Faust Robes to work with, which would make them significantly more dangerous. As far as mass casualty abilities among the Illuminati, the one you want to look at is Adam Weishaupt, who can make and drop a miniature sun strong enough to reduce an entire underground military installation to a smoking crater.

Well, the matter at stake here isn't just "are they throwing around big blasts," it's "are they able to casually eliminate large groups of people by just... snuffing out their lives or taking over their minds, without a correspondingly massive, conspicuous magical effect that destroys them by unleashing nuclear-equivalent firepower directly?"

It's the difference between "the villain is threatening to drop an asteroid on Tokyo" and "the villain waves his hand and everyone in Tokyo is now mind-controlled to attack you until further notice, which he basically just did on an impulse to inconvenience you."

The latter isn't really more destructive than the former, but the latter has much more alarming implications for what the villain is capable of doing as a flex and just how immune they are to normal people's capabilities.

EDIT: Also, any given Noise or Alca-Noise attack, since they can be produced quickly, en-mass, and any touch is instantly lethal to civilians.

I do suspect that in a crossover setting there will probably turn out to be other forms of effective ward if they show up.

Grue · Sep 10, 2023

Simon_Jester said:
I do suspect that in a crossover setting there will probably turn out to be other forms of effective ward if they show up.

Yeah, if you can defend from their onehit abilities they basically become only useful as terror weapons; whenever mundane guns can actually damage Noise they tend to shred them.

Simon_Jester said:
"the villain waves his hand and everyone in Tokyo is now mind-controlled to attack you until further notice, which he basically just did on an impulse to inconvenience you."

Thankfully the villian with that in Symphogear is almost certianly not appearing due to her extreme incompatabilites with a Sailor Moon crossover.

Phrux · Sep 10, 2023

Simon_Jester said:
Twelve hundred neighbors? Who they never heard of before? All human? Including many oni-level martial artists? In a small reservation that was probably never intended to hold much more than their own more or less fixed population?

I think they might interpret that as "one bunch of humans stuck us in here, now another bunch of humans says we're 'free' and right away they want to take it away from us."

The reservation isn't a reservation anymore, they can spread out, and I think they'd get along well. They LIKE fighting. Also I didn't mean that that Amazons would be settled onto the rez, just nearby. 50 miles away or whatev.

NMS · Sep 10, 2023

Grue said:
A reminder that Ranmaverse food fighting includes the likes of Ukyo, and can be explosive at the least. It's probably a slightly less violent Beat Some Sense Into Them option.

Isn't Ukyo's ultimate technique creating a dragon out of cooking ingredients?

Actually, come to think of it, with Akane calling marriage off and Shampoo's being suspended due to the crisis, does that mean Ukyo wins the waifu war by default? Unless Lunaryon comes up for a reason for her to also put her engagement on hold, also?

Chaosmancer · Sep 10, 2023

Another thing to point out "where will we put them, and who do we talk to about that?"... is not a clientage question. We absolutely need to do that regardless of of clientage. Because while we could teleport them all to Japan and then say "well, see ya later, good luck finding a place to live" A) That isn't going to happen. B) The Amazons will just settle near wherever we teleport them anyways. And since we brought them there....

So, I don't think that action is going to be a non-factor if we decide not to become their patrons, because it is inherent in helping them escape period. And NO ONE has voted to not help them escape. Not a single person. So all the challenges of moving them somewhere new exist regardless of the other half of the vote

Simon_Jester · Sep 10, 2023

Phrux said:
The reservation isn't a reservation anymore, they can spread out, and I think they'd get along well. They LIKE fighting. Also I didn't mean that that Amazons would be settled onto the rez, just nearby. 50 miles away or whatev.

Well yeah, but the oni aren't going to be comfortable spreading out immediately after spending centuries building up that village, and it's on a mountainside so there probably isn't a lot of open useful real estate for several miles in any given direction. Plus there's apparently some kind of menacing spell on the surrounding mountainsides to fence the oni in.

I dunno. If it was just like fifty people I could see it working well, but 1200 is a bit much. Not that the Amazons and oni couldn't learn to live together and all, just that the physicality of it's a bit cramped.

NMS said:
Isn't Ukyo's ultimate technique creating a dragon out of cooking ingredients?

Actually, come to think of it, with Akane calling marriage off and Shampoo's being suspended due to the crisis, does that mean Ukyo wins the waifu war by default? Unless Lunaryon comes up for a reason for her to also put her engagement on hold, also?

I can't claim to really know the details, but First Girl power is a mighty force to contend with.

Ekzentric Lohner · Sep 10, 2023

Another reason to wait before offering clientage is to avoid even the slightest impression that we're taking advantage of the mortal peril the Amazons are in. I mean, we wouldn't be, we'd rescue them anyway even if they declined, but the appearance of it is something that can be easily spun by enemies later if the sequence of events is 1) the Amazons ask us for help -> 2) we offer the Amazons clientage -> 3) we evacuate the Amazons instead of 1) the Amazons ask us for help -> 2) we evacuate the Amazons -> 3) we offer the Amazons clientage.

If we do offer the Amazons clientage, either now or later, I hope someone writes an AmazonQuest negaverse omake presenting a relocation destination vote where the options are Taiwan, Japan, some other earthly nation (write-in), and the Moon.

I imagine it'd be presented as a sliding scale of "least adjustment" to "most safety". The write-in option is usually listed last in votes, but doing it this way just emphasizes how absurdly out there the Moon option unlocked by Cologne's action is. The negaverse questers' discussion would probably be hilarious.

Simon_Jester · Sep 10, 2023

Ekzentric Lohner said:
Another reason to wait before offering clientage is to avoid even the slightest impression that we're taking advantage of the mortal peril the Amazons are in. I mean, we wouldn't be, we'd rescue them anyway even if they declined, but the appearance of it is something that can be easily spun by enemies later if the sequence of events is 1) the Amazons ask us for help -> 2) we offer the Amazons clientage -> 3) we evacuate the Amazons instead of 1) the Amazons ask us for help -> 2) we evacuate the Amazons -> 3) we offer the Amazons clientage.

I don't think we should worry about that. Like, I'm not saying no one can ever make that claim, but I don't think the Amazons themselves would buy it, not least because it's going to be a matter for discussion at least among their elders and maybe among their people at large before they accept, and because it's not like Sailor Moon of all people won't make it clear that she's willing to help them on general principles and get them out of their immediate danger, no strings attached.

If we do offer the Amazons clientage, either now or later, I hope someone writes an AmazonQuest negaverse omake presenting a relocation destination vote where the options are Taiwan, Japan, some other earthly nation (write-in), and the Moon.

I imagine it'd be presented as a sliding scale of "least adjustment" to "most safety". The write-in option is usually listed last in votes, but doing it this way just emphasizes how absurdly out there the Moon option unlocked by Cologne's action is. The negaverse questers' discussion would probably be hilarious.

Eternal_0bserver · Sep 10, 2023

Ekzentric Lohner said:
Another reason to wait before offering clientage is to avoid even the slightest impression that we're taking advantage of the mortal peril the Amazons are in. I mean, we wouldn't be, we'd rescue them anyway even if they declined, but the appearance of it is something that can be easily spun by enemies later if the sequence of events is 1) the Amazons ask us for help -> 2) we offer the Amazons clientage -> 3) we evacuate the Amazons instead of 1) the Amazons ask us for help -> 2) we evacuate the Amazons -> 3) we offer the Amazons clientage.

In fact, vassalage is what Cologne has proposed itself, and it seems to be the best option for her. I guess because her people are proud, Sailor Moon has a much better chance of being accepted as a leader by them than a faceless government or organization. Her main concern is that this may be too much to ask under the current circumstances.

In other words, blame Cologne.

Ekzentric Lohner · Sep 10, 2023

Simon_Jester said:
I don't think we should worry about that. Like, I'm not saying no one can ever make that claim, but I don't think the Amazons themselves would buy it, not least because it's going to be a matter for discussion at least among their elders and maybe among their people at large before they accept, and because it's not like Sailor Moon of all people won't make it clear that she's willing to help them on general principles and get them out of their immediate danger, no strings attached.

Oh, I'm not worried about the Amazons getting it spun to them like that. I'm worried about it being spun that way to other people.

It is in our interests for other people to see asking us for help as a safe option. For enemies who wish to impede that, the opportunity to portray us as ruthless opportunists willing to offer leonine contracts under all the sparkles is valuable.

Eternal_0bserver · Sep 10, 2023

Ekzentric Lohner said:
Oh, I'm not worried about the Amazons getting it spun to them like that. I'm worried about it being spun that way to other people.

It is in our interests for other people to see asking us for help as a safe option. For enemies who wish to impede that, the opportunity to portray us as ruthless opportunists willing to offer leonine contracts under all the sparkles is valuable.

But can't the lack of immediate response be portrayed as opportunism, where the Senshi agree only after carefully calculating the costs and benefits? And if we decide to only help with the move, this can be presented as simply a concern for image and unwillingness to bear responsibility. No matter what we do, it can be put in a negative light if they really want to.

Grue · Sep 10, 2023

NMS said:
does that mean Ukyo wins the waifu war by default?

You underestimate Genma's stupidity IIRC.

Simon_Jester · Sep 10, 2023

Chaosmancer said:
Another thing to point out "where will we put them, and who do we talk to about that?"... is not a clientage question. We absolutely need to do that regardless of of clientage. Because while we could teleport them all to Japan and then say "well, see ya later, good luck finding a place to live" A) That isn't going to happen. B) The Amazons will just settle near wherever we teleport them anyways. And since we brought them there....

So, I don't think that action is going to be a non-factor if we decide not to become their patrons, because it is inherent in helping them escape period. And NO ONE has voted to not help them escape. Not a single person. So all the challenges of moving them somewhere new exist regardless of the other half of the vote

The big difference between the clientage and non-clientage versions of "help them escape" is how much responsibility we take for making sure things go smoothly after the immediate task of making sure the Amazons have immediate short-term shelter. And in the aftermath.

For example, in the non-clientage scenario, if we bring the Amazons to Japan and MCAT agrees to put them up for a month and then is in negotiations with Taiwan about finding them a place to stay more permanently, none of that is ultimately our problem. If the Amazons make trouble during that month, MCAT will probably mostly not blame us, and will probably mostly blame them. If the Amazons' living conditions while in a temporary refugee camp or whatever are unpleasant, the Amazons might ask us for help, but there's not nearly as much of a betrayal if we can't help them immediately.

In the clientage scenario, all those things are our responsibility, or entangle with our responsibilities in a way we can't easily disown.

It's the difference between being short term responsible for making sure a specific action goes smoothly, and being long term responsible for the welfare of the people involved.

With great power comes great responsibility, and that goes for lordship just as much as it does for superpowers. At least if you're responsible and caring, and our Sailor Moon is both.

Ekzentric Lohner said:
Oh, I'm not worried about the Amazons getting it spun to them like that. I'm worried about it being spun that way to other people.

It is in our interests for other people to see asking us for help as a safe option. For enemies who wish to impede that, the opportunity to portray us as ruthless opportunists willing to offer leonine contracts under all the sparkles is valuable.

I think you're sort of imagining a very abstract "enemies" and "allies" here, and that more careful consideration of the political details make this less of a concern.

First, because many of the details will be known specifically to the Senshi and the Amazons and through verbal contracts between the two groups. We don't have historians following us around or big archives of memoranda back and forth between us. Thus, anyone learning the history of what happened will learn it through the lens of the Senshi and Amazons' own viewpoints. Thus, if the Amazons themselves don't feel exploited, the history books are unlikely to record that they have been exploited and thus provide future imagined critics with a basis for saying so.

Second, because of the obvious question, what enemies? It takes a very specific combination of "future enemies wishing to undermine us" and "allies wishing to ask us for help" to make this scenario work. The enemies have to be participants in the normal cultural discourse of the allies' society (unlike the Death Busters or Dead Moon Circus, for example). The allies have to be simultaneously aware of the Senshi's past dealings to a fairly high level of detail, and yet unaware of any meaningful narrative connecting these events together apart from what our enemies tell them. Aware enougjh to know the exact timing and details of how Sailor Moon ended up with a clan of Amazon warriors working for her, but unaware enough to just, y'know, talk to those Amazons or even read any accounts made by interviewing them. And, importantly, the enemies in question must be reluctant enough to outright lie that despite getting to control the narrative, they aren't comfortable with outright making things up, or they wouldn't even need to go to the lengths of all this spin anyway.

I just don't think it's relevant as a concern, frankly.

theBSDude · Sep 10, 2023

Lunaryon said:
She squeezes lightly and wills Fire into the metal. Dust-motes on the bokken flash into sudden spark of flame with a sizzle. It begins to glow cherry red under her hand, then a warm orange.

Bokken are made of wood; that's what the Bok(u) means. It might be a Tekkan, a sword-shaped metal club.

Angelform · Sep 10, 2023

[X] Promise to help the Amazons flee China. Do not offer them clientage.

FictionPack · Sep 10, 2023

theBSDude said:
Bokken are made of wood; that's what the Bok(u) means.

They make synthetic cold steel bokkens.
They are training swords, so not sure why he is using one here anyway. Their purpose is to not damage your expensive sword.

In the West, the word "Bokken" is widely used to refer to a wooden sword. However, in Japan, the proper word is "Bokuto". Although less precise, the Japanese also use other terms like "Bokken" "Kidachi", "Daito" and "Tachi" etc.

Golden Darkness · Sep 10, 2023

[X] Promise to help the Amazons flee China. Offer them clientage.

RadiantPhoenix · Sep 10, 2023

FictionPack said:
Yes? We do not need to check in with anyone to make offers. We are not beholden to MCAT. We can inform them we made the offer, but we do not need to run the decision by them for their approval.

Usagi has decided to make the offer. That's the easy part, the hard part comes in making it work out beneficially to all involved.

It sounds like you're agreeing with me about what the options mean, but I'm not 100% sure.

Voting for this option (offer clientage) is offering it to them before we've gotten more info about the situation, because it is offering it to Cologne either "right now" or "pretty much as soon as Rei finishes explaining things to Usagi".

That is, not waiting until we get more info from our other allies, whether about the circumstances or about other options.

Waiting to get all the information easily available to us is "don't offer clientage (yet)"

Grue said:
Thankfully the villian with that in Symphogear is almost certianly not appearing due to her extreme incompatabilites with a Sailor Moon crossover.

"Mind control all of [China/Tokyo/Earth], except for superheroes" is a thing that multiple Sailor Moon villains do:

Danburite (Venus's once-again-dead suitor from the Silver Millennium)
Zoicite (the Dark General)
Metallia
Nehelennia

And that's not even counting the smaller-scale mind control that gets thrown around.

FictionPack · Sep 10, 2023

RadiantPhoenix said:
That is, not waiting until we get more info from our other allies, whether about the circumstances or about other options.

I am aware. Once we offer clientage we will be beholden to work out how best to aid the Amazons, which is really what is in character for Usagi to want to do anyway, and resolve any issues that crop up from their relocation with others.

What you made it sound like was that we needed to go and get permission from someone else before offering the Amazons clientage. We do not need permission to decide on our own to do that.

RadiantPhoenix · Sep 10, 2023

FictionPack said:
I am aware. Once we offer clientage we will be beholden to work out how best to aid the Amazons, which is really what is in character for Usagi to want to do anyway, and resolve any issues that crop up from their relocation with others.

What you made it sound like was that we needed to go and get permission from someone else before offering the Amazons clientage. We do not need permission to decide on our own to do that.

Ah.

No.

I was thinking we probably should check in with our other allies to see if they have any useful info or advice, not that we needed to.

This isn't something I want to rush into.

Spart117MC · Sep 10, 2023

Simon_Jester said:
Up to a point, but the Amazons are, or such is my impression, fairly touchy. Some amount of pushback is to be expected, and smoothing it over without making the Amazons muttering "this deal is looking worse and worse all the time" too hard could take real effort on our part.

No but if the Senshi lay out at the start, you the Amazons are not allowed to do so and so, and then some Amazon does it, it's completely within their rights to beat the sense into them.

Simon_Jester said:
Fourth, the Amazons are not an object. A warship can be returned without its crew and still be a valuable military asset, and examination of it implies secret information about other weapons the original owner still has. The Amazons cannot be returned without returning the people themselves, and their secrets are not in a normal sense "Chinese" secrets since even other Chinese people generally don't know them. This makes it harder for China to present a realistic and useful demand for the Amazons' return.

The warship is a metaphor. That it's an object doesn't matter. That is not the point. The point is a massive chunk of firepower just defected on it's own. The point is that there was a mutiny that threatens the security of the nation. The point is that an irreplaceable resource that cannot be manufactured in anything short of years that is critical to a present crisis, has picked itself up and left.

But fine, let's change the metaphor, since the object thing is throwing you. The Amazons are nuclear scientists that know how to make nuclear weapons. Does that help to clarify the point I am attempting to make for you?

Simon_Jester said:
Fifth, it would be immensely difficult to do this without looking like psychotic monsters on the international stage, and the PRC government, while obviously unafraid to have a reputation for being nasty customers, does at least try to seem like a normal non-demonic country most of the time.

You're saying this about the PRC in 1992? The PRC three years removed from the events of Tiananmen Square? The PRC that in two years is going to start firing missiles into Taiwanese waters because the United States let the ROC president visit his alma mater?

Simon_Jester said:
And sixth, actually fighting a war with Taiwan that they might very well lose at the same time that they have a major (paranormal) internal security crisis is incredibly stupid.

Countries have gone to war numerous time to acquire resources that they deem necessary to their continued survival. The Nazi invaded the Soviet Union in part for their oil fields. Imperial Japan invaded the Pacific with the understanding that they were going to get the snot beat out of them afterwards because they deemed gaining the region's natural resources in the moment a worthwhile trade-off.

If the Amazons make up a substantial part of the PRC's magical fighting forces, then they may deem recapturing them to be cause enough to wage a conventional war against Taiwan and the PRC might not have the capacity to capture Taiwan but they don't need that if what they're after is the Amazons. A war that they would have casus belli well beyond the Amazons alone to undertake.

The PLA's terrible performance against the Dark Kingdom might even work to convince the PRC of the necessity of waging a short war with limited objectives that they will come out victorious in, because right now the PRC is looking weak and has been humiliated by the Dark Kingdom. The PRC could decide to go full Argentina and undertake their own little Falklands War against Taiwan to bolster their reputation.

Simon_Jester said:
The PLA may have magic assets we don't know about, which are less outmatched against youma.

You keep talking about the PLA potentially having other magical assets, but all the evidence points to them having jack shit.

Lunaryon said:
And I suspect there's still some internal resistance to the idea of being rid of us; the People's Republic is very short of people who can replace our… particular skills.

Those are Cologne's words. The multi-century old woman who has been trying her best to politic a compromise with the PRC. If there were alternatives to the Amazons, she would have had at least an inkling about it, because knowledge of a group able to replace the Amazons would have been critical to the success of her negotiations.

The only way that makes sense is if the PRC, which despite having been pushed to the point where they have had to enact highly visible countrywide curfews – which they outright admit are in response to the Dark Kingdom – and having had to deploy the PLA into Chinese cities, and in the process has lost significant amounts of face, is either refusing to use or is so sparingly using anti-youma magical specialists that the Amazons, who are working with the PRC to destroy the Dark Kingdom and would know how capable the PLA are really at fighting the DK are convinced that they are one of a few magical assets that the PRC has access to.

I think the PRC as we've seen it in the quest is a self-sabotaging government and even I think that's an unreasonable assumption to make of them.

Simon_Jester said:
I think a tank and a Silver Millennium foot soldier would likely present very different challenges.

Eh, I'm not as convinced as you on that. I don't think there's much an M1A1 can do better than a mage with an Intelligent Device.

Elder Haman said:
Which is another reason to delay. If we give them clientage now, a lot of Amazons are going to think they can just continue the way they are. If we give them clientage after they have adopted some more modern laws, (like no more Kiss of Death) then they are more likely to realize that our commitment to be their patron is dependent on their newer modernization.

The obvious reply to that would seem to be then to say up front and that the Senshi want them to change.

Chaosmancer · Sep 10, 2023

Ekzentric Lohner said:
Oh, I'm not worried about the Amazons getting it spun to them like that. I'm worried about it being spun that way to other people.

It is in our interests for other people to see asking us for help as a safe option. For enemies who wish to impede that, the opportunity to portray us as ruthless opportunists willing to offer leonine contracts under all the sparkles is valuable.

Eh, people who don't like us will spin everything in the worst light. They'd spin us giving piggybacks to orphans as only being propoganda to hide our illict black market research that they totally have proof of.

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Simon_Jester said:
The big difference between the clientage and non-clientage versions of "help them escape" is how much responsibility we take for making sure things go smoothly after the immediate task of making sure the Amazons have immediate short-term shelter. And in the aftermath.

For example, in the non-clientage scenario, if we bring the Amazons to Japan and MCAT agrees to put them up for a month and then is in negotiations with Taiwan about finding them a place to stay more permanently, none of that is ultimately our problem. If the Amazons make trouble during that month, MCAT will probably mostly not blame us, and will probably mostly blame them. If the Amazons' living conditions while in a temporary refugee camp or whatever are unpleasant, the Amazons might ask us for help, but there's not nearly as much of a betrayal if we can't help them immediately.

In the clientage scenario, all those things are our responsibility, or entangle with our responsibilities in a way we can't easily disown.

Okay, but... you are making that sound bigger than it is. And you aren't actually addressing the real issues people are bringing up.

For example, many people are saying "before we offer clientage, we need to discuss with MCAT if we can bring them to Japan". In your above example... we also had to talk to MCAT before bringing them to Japan. That month stay in Japan is the EXACT SAME whether or not we have offered clientage.

And if the Amazons cause trouble, MCAT is equally likely to blame us, because we brought the problem to them. And if their living conditions are unpleasant, they.... probably will still go and complain to Cologne who will point out that it was mildly unpleasant conditions for a month, or napalm. And it isn't a "betrayal" of them, because even if we promise to have them as our clients, we ARE NOT promising them that their lives will be perfectly comfortable until they get to their new home.

So, the only difference between the clientage scenario and the non-clientage scenario in your example is whether or not MCAT negotiating with Taiwan is our problem. And even as the patron to the Amazons, we aren't negotiating with Taiwan, and we aren't making the final decision, unless the Council of Elders ends up split 50/50 and needs a tie-breaker vote.

You are correct we cannot DISOWN the situation, but I think where that is getting muddled is that being able to disown it, and needing to take specific actions to guide the process as different things. We can ultimately responsible for them, but also not really have to take a lot of specific actions, because the council and MCAT can talk to each other handle the vast majority of the needed ruling and leadership.

Simon_Jester said:
It's the difference between being short term responsible for making sure a specific action goes smoothly, and being long term responsible for the welfare of the people involved.

With great power comes great responsibility, and that goes for lordship just as much as it does for superpowers. At least if you're responsible and caring, and our Sailor Moon is both.

Yes, but I think most people's actual concerns are in the short-term. The long-term where these things matter more is not where the majority of people seem to be voting against the action. They are thinking "we don't want to negotiate for the Amazons to settle somewhere" which is part of rescuing them, IMO, not part of Patronage.

Bakkasama · Sep 10, 2023

[X] Promise to help the Amazons flee China. Do not offer them clientage.

Despite common sense saying that anything related to the Ranma 1/2 part of the crossover is more trouble than it is worth, I do love that manga and think those elements are a lot of fun and Cologne said that the most troublesome traditions would be on hold while the crisis is ongoing, so I am inclined to agree on taking them as clients. THAT SAID, we are already to commited to colaborating with them against the DK, so I think that the wiser course of action is to wait until we do that to see how well we work together before taking this decision.

Usagi Quest (CK3/Princess Maker) (Sailor Moon)

Herald of Disaster

滅亡迅雷

I miss Wildstar...

(Unverified Bookworm)

I miss Wildstar...

(Unverified Bookworm)

滅亡迅雷

aka Thebes

Monochromatic Ursine

Trudging up the Hill

Monochromatic Ursine

Trudging up the Hill

Amateur human

There is always a greater fool