On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.
I feel like what I'm seeing here can't possibly be true, yet I so desperately want it to be. Because if this is right. That 50% chance of an extra action? It now applies infinitely to extra actions. Which means if we are lucky enough we could theoretically complete ANY request in one go.
I feel like what I'm seeing here can't possibly be true, yet I so desperately want it to be. Because if this is right. That 50% chance of an extra action? It now applies infinitely to extra actions. Which means if we are lucky enough we could theoretically complete ANY request in one go.
I'm pretty sure that "Every request action" specifically means the actions we put into it, not the bonus progress they generate. So no exploding projects, unfortunately.
I'm pretty sure that "Every request action" specifically means the actions we put into it, not the bonus progress they generate. So no exploding projects, unfortunately.
Yeah this is correct. This is a potential infinite action thing that Soul nixed a long while back when we first got the percentage chance on Production.
I feel like what I'm seeing here can't possibly be true, yet I so desperately want it to be. Because if this is right. That 50% chance of an extra action? It now applies infinitely to extra actions. Which means if we are lucky enough we could theoretically complete ANY request in one go.
Adamant Maker is C7. Compress would then be 2*7 + 1 = 15 actions as a baseline.
However, Odd specialty could apply, talisman specialty should apply.
2*[7 - 1 (Talisman specialty) - 1 (Soul of the Earth) - 1 (Talent for Talismans)] which...
Lol. That works out to 2*4 + 1 = 9 actions needed. So yeah the initial calc of 9 works out to be correct, once we account for the talisman specialty.
If Odd specialty also applies to reducing the action cost necessary for the compression, it gets very ridiculous at 2*1 + 1 = 3 actions needed.
Then in terms of traits, Talent for Talismans and Soul of the Earth both apply, though Master of the Odd does not now.
Means any 3 action investment into it turns into 3 + 2 (soul of the earth) + 2 (talent for talismans) = 7 progress. Purification does not have the [Bizzare] tag, so Master of the Odd's new form doesn't apply to it.
@ArchAIngel Your Plan Smelters seems really on course for getting done quick.
Master Rune of Star Shower: Streaks of fire fall from the sky like rain, each one capable of drilling through hardened steel like so much paper, of breaking shield and stone and scale alike. Ash and rubble are all that's left behind in the end, even steel and stone left charred, warped, and broken. A great scorch mark on the world, that can never heal.
Master Rune of Earth Shaker: A deceptively simple name, the world, the floor underneath your very feet, is shaken, rocked, moved and broken, ground down under primal and absolute forces, small chasm ripped asunder, the rock and dirt broken like so much glass. In the wake, new hills and new plains and new clefts are left behind from the tectonic forces unleashed, small perhaps but it is still fighting the very ground and winning.
Master Rune of Wind Stirrer: Related to the Master Rune of Grungni but...destructive. A great cyclone, greater than any cyclone otherwise imagined, rises up from the Rune's bearer, and where he walks devastation follows. These winds are strong enough to pick up a troll and toss him about, shatter his neck on the earth; throw a wagon like a child's toy, hard enough it shatters; break down the walls of a storehouse like so many twigs.
Master Rune of Ferocious Frost: A blizzard; but not simply its imitation, not simply its attempt, but its truest form. Snow is all whipped up, blanketing the earth, the ground, the people. A chill as heavy as a hammer falls on the world. Ice chokes, blankets, smothers and strangles everything. Life is buried under the chill.
The Runes of Armageddon, as they will be known in the faded, falling, broken days of the Karaz Ankor, are nothing more and nothing less than natural disasters yoked to a Dwarf's will. They are not safe to be around when active, and are meant only to be brought to bear in the most desperate of times.
--
Some Runes for What If Skarrenbakraz Combo but different natural disaster than volcanic eruption.
Alrighty, new list of plans which is somehow shorter than the last one! Same stipulations as the previous versions of this post; research action is assumed to be Odd Wyrm's Blood, not all of these plans use all the AP at our disposal in a given turn. The idea is just to clean up research that's been sitting out for a while.
Project Name
Actions Spent
Other Notes
Khazagar
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer, 45 Influence
6 or 7 progress on Khazagar, depending on the Peerless Production coin flip. If the coin flip gives an extra progress, then it frees up an AP or reduces the Influence spending on a future turn.
Drakk Rearing
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer
3 Progress.
The Movement Of Things Pt. 6
2 General, 1 Master Of The Odd or Mind For Constructs
Potential +1 towards Master Of The Odd or Mind For Constructs.
I'm not entirely certain whether the Movement Of Things Pt. 6 falls under Master Of The Odd or Mind For Constructs, but either way, it definitely still benefits from at least one of them. It also leaves 1 AP open. Good for The Road To Anoqeyån Pt. 2 (1 action from being in 3 AP completion range), Compressing Adamant Maker (2 AP from being in 3 AP completion range) more Drakk Rearing, or starting on Understanding The Master Rune Of Thungni.
Project Name
Actions Spent
Other Notes
Khazagar
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer, 45 Influence
6 or 7 progress on Khazagar, depending on the Peerless Production coin flip. If the coin flip gives an extra progress, then it frees up an AP or reduces the Influence spending on a future turn.
Drakk Rearing
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer
3 Progress On Drakk Rearing.
The Movement Of Things Pt. 5b
2 General, 1 Master Of The Odd, 1 Mind For Constructs
Potential +1 towards Master Of The Odd, Mind For Constructs, 1 Overflow.
Making a Gronti like Mhorni definitely falls under novel phenomena, and it would be a Construct. It also leaves 1 AP open. Good for The Road To Anoqeyån Pt. 2 (1 action from being in 3 AP completion range), Compressing Adamant Maker (2 AP from being in 3 AP completion range) more Drakk Rearing, or starting on Understanding The Master Rune Of Thungni.
I'd normally put compressing Adamant Maker here, but the Adamant Maker combo doesn't have the [bizzare] tag on it at the time that I'm writing this. At 9 actions required, even with Talent Of Talismans and Soul Of The Earth applying to it, it simply cannot be finished in a single turn on 3 AP. Similarly, Mountainsouled can't be condensed in 3 AP on a single turn. However, since it would brought up in game...
Project Name
Actions Spent
Other Notes
Khazagar
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer, 45 Influence
6 or 7 progress on Khazagar, depending on the Peerless Production coin flip. If the coin flip gives an extra progress, then it frees up an AP or reduces the Influence spending on a future turn.
Drakk Rearing
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer
3 Progress On Drakk Rearing.
The Brotherhood Calls
3 General, 3 Peerless Production
Anywhere from 6-9 progress on this. Potential +1 to Peerless Production.
We could just sink 3 AP into fulfilling The Brotherhood Calls. I know the thread is in favor of holding off until we've done The Movement Of Things Pt. 5b so that we could also explain Mhorni... but Mhorni isn't technically part of the actual forging process. Considering that Peerless Prodution's effective thresholds of increased value are 1, 2, 3, and 5 AP? Barring a desire to put in a full 5 AP on it, 3 AP is still going to be a considerable investment of Snorri's effort. And will payout with more favour, and possibly standing.
Edit: Per request of the Adamant Smelter Advancement community, the plans regarding making Adamant Smelter's now have been removed. In their place, I am noting that Adamant Maker requires 9 actions to compress, and qualifies for Soul Of The Earth and Talent For Talismans. Ergo, it is 2 progress from being in the 3 AP completion range, and has been added as a potential funnel point for spare AP.
Project Name
Actions Spent
Other Notes
Khazagar
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer, 45 Influence
6 or 7 progress on Khazagar, depending on the Peerless Production coin flip. If the coin flip gives an extra progress, then it frees up an AP or reduces the Influence spending on a future turn.
Drakk Rearing
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer
3 Progress On Drakk Rearing.
Compress A Combo: Adamant Maker
3 General, 2 Talent For Talismans, 2 Soul Of The Earth
Potential +1 to Talent For Talismans
Compressing a combo is stated as having the traits of all constituent runes, and being in the categories of the original combo. Thus, Adamant Maker has [metal] qualifying it for Soul Of The Earth and is Talismanic qualifying it for Talent For Talismans. While the math behind all of this means that Adamant Maker requires 9 actions to fully compress, two actions left means that any investment of 2 AP on a future turn completes it with overflow.
Project Name
Actions Spent
Other Notes
Khazagar
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer, 45 Influence
6 or 7 progress on Khazagar, depending on the Peerless Production coin flip. If the coin flip gives an extra progress, then it frees up an AP or reduces the Influence spending on a future turn.
Drakk Rearing
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer
3 Progress On Drakk Rearing.
Wardstones
2 General, 1 Talent For Talismans/TD][TD]Potential +1 to Talent For Talismans
Finish researching what the Rune on the Wardstones that isn't the Rune Of Valaya is. Depending on what it is, the result of this could be incorporated into the defenses of Khazagar automatically as Snorri and Karstah get to that stage of Khazagar's construction. This also leaves an open AP. Good for The Road To Anoqeyån Pt. 2 (1 action from being in 3 AP completion range), Compressing Adamant Maker (2 AP from being in 3 AP completion range) more Drakk Rearing, or starting on Understanding The Master Rune Of Thungni.
Project Name
Actions Spent
Other Notes
Khazagar
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer, 45 Influence
6 or 7 progress on Khazagar, depending on the Peerless Production coin flip. If the coin flip gives an extra progress, then it frees up an AP or reduces the Influence spending on a future turn.
Drakk Rearing
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer
3 Progress On Drakk Rearing.
Re-Warding Work
2 General, 1 Peerless Production
1~3 Overflow, Potential +1 to Peerless Production
Given the increased activity of the Fimir and threat of permanent Chaos rifts, whenever word of those reach us, this might not be a terrible idea. Getting a second reroll stored up might not be a bad idea. This also leaves an open AP. Good for The Road To Anoqeyån Pt. 2 (1 action from being in 3 AP completion range), Compressing Adamant Maker (2 AP from being in 3 AP completion range) more Drakk Rearing, or starting on Understanding The Master Rune Of Thungni.
Project Name
Actions Spent
Other Notes
Khazagar
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer, 45 Influence
6 or 7 progress on Khazagar, depending on the Peerless Production coin flip. If the coin flip gives an extra progress, then it frees up an AP or reduces the Influence spending on a future turn.
Drakk Rearing
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer
3 Progress On Drakk Rearing.
Mysterious Mystery Stones
2 General, 1 Master Of The Odd
3 Progress out of 18.
Re-Warding Work
1 General
1/2 chance of completion, 1/2 chance of leaving it at 1 action remaining. Potential +1 towards Peerless Production.
Given the increased activity of the Fimir and threat of permanent Chaos rifts, whenever word of those reach us, this might not be a terrible idea. There could even be potential synergy for working with the stones in same turn that Snorri puts up more wards on them?
Project Name
Actions Spent
Other Notes
Khazagar
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer, 45 Influence
6 or 7 progress on Khazagar, depending on the Peerless Production coin flip. If the coin flip gives an extra progress, then it frees up an AP or reduces the Influence spending on a future turn.
Drakk Rearing
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer
3 Progress On Drakk Rearing.
Mysterious Mystery Stones
3 General, 2 Master Of The Odd
5 Progress out of 18.
Given the increased activity of the Fimir and threat of permanent Chaos rifts, whenever word of those reach us, this might not be a terrible idea. While it doesn't store up any rerolls, it does give a strong start on working with the energy of the stones.
Project Name
Actions Spent
Other Notes
Khazagar
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer, 45 Influence
6 or 7 progress on Khazagar, depending on the Peerless Production coin flip. If the coin flip gives an extra progress, then it frees up an AP or reduces the Influence spending on a future turn.
Drakk Rearing
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer
3 Progress On Drakk Rearing.
Diction Direction Pt. 2/Secrets Of Light Pt. 2
2 General, 1 Master Of The Odd
Potential +1 to Master Of The Odd
This finishes research into whichever of the above is chosen. They've been sitting fallow for a long time. This also leaves an open AP. Good for The Road To Anoqeyån Pt. 2 (1 action from being in 3 AP completion range), Compressing Adamant Maker (2 AP from being in 3 AP completion range) more Drakk Rearing, or starting on Understanding The Master Rune Of Thungni.
I like how the understand system kind of reflects how dwarfs don't actually know how runes work and thus it's a huge upfront cost that really only gets mitigated by sheer talent and knowing a large variety of runes. The variety meaning it's easier to identify similar structures and functioning to piece together what's going on.
Like look at MThungni's Brilliance a C10 rune. For Snorri that base cost is 4 + 4*10 = 44 actions before subtracting learned MRunes. Snorri knows ~40-45 MRunes which would bring it down by ~20 actions to ~24 actions. Truely a monster of a rune for someone who does not specialize in structural runes like Snorri.
Meanwhile MThungni is an engineering rune so we do get the a baseline reduction of 1 and the trait improve action efficiency.
If it's C10 it'll be 20AP to understand, minimum 2.5 turns to figure out, then 2AP to convert to talisman, then the combo will be C11 so 1 + 2*(11-1) = 21 to compress. So yeah best hope it's not that bad or else we're screwed.
Hopefully true Runesight will bring that understand multiplier down from 4x to 2 or even 1x in time as Snorri learns what's actually happening.
I like how the understand system kind of reflects how dwarfs don't actually know how runes work and thus it's a huge upfront cost that really only gets mitigated by sheer talent and knowing a large variety of runes. The variety meaning it's easier to identify similar structures and functioning to piece together what's going on.
Like look at MThungni's Brilliance a C10 rune. For Snorri that base cost is 4 + 4*10 = 44 actions before subtracting learned MRunes. Snorri knows ~40-45 MRunes which would bring it down to ~24 actions. Truely a monster of a rune for someone who does not specialize in structural runes like Snorri.
Meanwhile MThungni is an engineering rune so we do get the a baseline reduction of 1 and the trait improve action efficiency.
If it's C10 cause it'll be 40AP to understand, minimum 5 turns to figure out, then 2AP to convert to talisman, then the combo will be C11 so 1 + 2*(11-1) = 21 to compress. So yeah best hope it's not that bad or else we're screwed.
Hopefully true Runesight will bring that understand multiplier down from 4x to 2 or even 1x in time as Snorri learns what's actually happening.
From what I recall Snorri doesn't know the Banner version for the Master Rune of Awakening. Be nice to figure that one out and the banner research would probably feed into the motion of things research.
I assume theres a minimum action cost because this could pretty easily go negative?
Or any MRune that ticks down to 0 is automatically understood?
E: Wait, seems like lonely runes aren't the limit of how much a thing can be compressed as we've got a couple of (generally armor runes) with more complexity than Zor Dum. Thats interesting.
I assume theres a minimum action cost because this could pretty easily go negative?
Or any MRune that ticks down to 0 is automatically understood?
E: Wait, seems like lonely runes aren't the limit of how much a thing can be compressed as we've got a couple of (generally armor runes) with more complexity than Zor Dum. Thats interesting.
I assume theres a minimum action cost because this could pretty easily go negative?
Or any MRune that ticks down to 0 is automatically understood?
E: Wait, seems like lonely runes aren't the limit of how much a thing can be compressed as we've got a couple of (generally armor runes) with more complexity than Zor Dum. Thats interesting.
Actually given this formula (and no minimum AP), as long as you know at least 8 MRunes of a category, you can learn all MRunes of complexity == your relevant trait talents for 0.
So assuming that our Talisman rank is 2, since we actually know 13 runes we should immediately learn all Talismanic runes of complexity 3 or lower.
Its not exactly being Thungni tier, but I think it might be more than soulcake was intending to give us for free.
I wouldn't go that far. Not until we find an actually simple Lonely Rune. After all our most complex runes at 10 are both Lonely.
More like Zor Dum is pressing the lower limits of complexity at 6 and Angra's runes are pressing the upper limits of what can be a not lonely rune.
There's a hazy border but complexity and lonely rune ness are definitely correlated. Perhaps there is a slight variation of Zor Dum which is able to not be a lonely rune which a runesmith of Angra's tier would have figured out
There's a hazy border but complexity and lonely rune ness are definitely correlated. Perhaps there is a slight variation of Zor Dum which is able to not be a lonely rune which a runesmith of Angra's tier would have figured out
Also yes, to confirm for everyone Lonely Runes and high Complexity Rating do have a correlation but there isn't like a threshold that says "now this is lonely" though there's a fairly clear minimum. Though admittedly its more likely for a Rune you develop to be Lonely the more compressions are involved.
EDIT: Fixed some stuff because holy shit what did I write?
Going to the western fault for vibration related runes we can get a glimpse at. Vibrationcontrol could really open up a lot for us. Bonus points if its got connections to earth and or deep magic through tectonic activity or maybe even the geomantic field.
