- Location
- Earth
I don't think anyone has ever tried and found out.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
It would no longer be frenzied and she could just feed normally on another human without killing them. It is the metaphysical equivalent of hitting it over the snout with a rolled up newspaper.
'Bad demon, no devouring lives whole!'
That's an interesting angle on this I don't think we've talked about before.
As nice as MiS is for the human half of a white vampire, it sounds like the demon half experiences it as something like this:
I think it would be put on life support. It wouldn't starve to death (because that would take the girl with it), but she wouldn't be able to use her supernatural abilities without feeding first (because it has zero energy stored). Mercy in Servitude doesn't cure cancer. It makes someone immune to the effects of cancer. Same here. It shouldn't lead to situations where whamps become human.
Of course, this is likely the first in a very long time for Dresden Verse, where a young Whamp hasn't actually fed. You could probably have a story about a path to enlightenment and redemption in there, where the girl never actually feeds from anyone unwilling, and learns to transcend her condition.
The question, I think was "does Mercy in Servitude also sustains the Hunger?". As I understand it, White Court Hunger is a spiritual symbiotic being / a set of spiritual organs that can consume certain types of emotions, and store the consumed energy for later use. The storage can be near indefinite. The Hunger slowly consumes stored energy over time to sustain itself. If the energy reservoirs run empty, it would go into a frenzy, and if it still can't find the source of appropriate emotional energy, it would die, likely taking the host with it, or start eating the host.
Right now, the girl's energy storages are zero - her Hunger has been awoken, but has never been fed. The absolute effect of Mercy in Servitude makes the girl immune to her Hunger. So, metaphysically speaking, is the Hunger put into an induced coma with just enough nutrient solutions fed to it so it doesn't die, or is it put into a cage and left to starve to death?
That's an interesting angle on this I don't think we've talked about before.
As nice as MiS is for the human half of a white vampire, it sounds like the demon half experiences it as something like this:
Pretty much only the cone is made is sheer terror
It does not, though her reserves are not at zero they are just low (as she has fed somewhat already from her first victim). the trouble is she has no control because she is not properly aware of how the Hunger works, all she has is an off switch not a dial so if she refuses or is otherwise kept from feeding while in this state her own Hunger will consume her. What Mercy in Servitude does is give her an conditional control of her Hunger as long as she serves you.
Oh, now that's an interesting point. She tried to feed from us, and would have been burnt by the purity and potency of our chi / essence. Is her Hunger stable yet? Did it choose an emotion to feed on as such (I think there's some choice to it based on first feeding)? If we force-feed her our essence, how would her hunger mutate?
This is certainly a topic for investigation.
To be precise, she'd have been burnt by the impurity of it. Infernal Essence is unhealthy to feed on because it's corrupt/tainted.
We don't have the elder vampire entirely cowed here, and he thinks Molly is basically an elder jade. Even if he doesn't try to pick a fight now it seems likely he could respond to us appearing to enslave a family member poorly.
He's almost certainly a monster, but I wouldn't blame him for the reaction since he has cause to believe we're just a bigger monster screwing with them for inexplicable reasons.
A subtler touch may be needed here to get to the same end. Especially since we can't recruit her and kill one of her positive intimacies.
In that vein, it occurs to me that we might not need long term servitude right off the bat to keep the kid alive. We want it eventually, but this is kind of a bad place to start something like this. We want to bop the demon on the nose so it calms down, and we know something as simple as requesting a cup of coffee will trigger the charm while the target is retrieving it.
[X] Sympathy from a Devil
-[X] Attempt to use MiS to save the teenager
-[X] Activate empathy excellency
-[X] Stunt: After a moment's pause Molly gives the slightest of nods. "This one is not for you, but I suppose I should save the child's life after having interrupted her quickening" she says, in an almost uncomfortably conversational tone.
--[X] Turning to the unfortunate fledging, Molly pins her eyes in place beneath her gaze "If you wish to live you will listen carefully and do what you are told. Understand?" Pausing for a timid nod, she continues.
--[X] "Get up, and step outside with me. We will see about settling your partner's furor"
--[X] Turning back to the elder vampire, a hint of something cold and hungry seeps back into her voice "You will save your victim's life, and we will speak about how this shall proceed, before this situation grows unpleasant " the unspoken 'for you' hanging thick in the air.
-[X] Stand outside in the rain with the kid, where Molly can clearly see what passes in the house, and give her basic orders based on preparing to meditate. Question her on what exactly she knows about herself and what happened here.
—[X] Once it seems like her distress has passed use occult to fake an arcane gesture, poke her on the forehead, and order her back inside.
Something like this maybe?
If we don't like the answers killing them is still on the table, but as a rule I don't want to do that with people who we make long term promises to or their families.
That being the case, getting more info before committing seems like a decent plan, which also positions us to subvert both of them without having the old guy immediately tear off to start shit with us at the first opportunity.
Which we could probably handle, but I'd rather not start that kind of conflict unprepared.
Edit:
The charm protects you from inherent consequences of your power, but doesn't protect you from consequences of its use or interactions that come about because of what you use your powers for.
A fomor pyromancer who's hands get burned as part of using their abilities would be immune to their own magic, but they could still be burned to death by the fires they start around themselves.
The human half of a white vamp is at least partially involved in the feeding process, and there's an energy sharing component of how the demon half handles energy.
So the human's soul would likely end up in close contact with unrestricted internal essence as it destabilizes and pops off in the face of the demon half.
Edit: correcting excellency selection in the plan
He's almost certainly a monster, but I wouldn't blame him for the reaction since he has cause to believe we're just a bigger monster screwing with them for inexplicable reasons.
A subtler touch may be needed here to get to the same end. Especially since we can't recruit her and kill one of her positive intimacies.
In that vein, it occurs to me that we might not need long term servitude right off the bat to keep the kid alive. We want it eventually, but this is kind of a bad place to start something like this. We want to bop the demon on the nose so it calms down, and we know something as simple as requesting a cup of coffee will trigger the charm while the target is retrieving it.
[X] Sympathy from a Devil
-[X] Attempt to use MiS to save the teenager
-[X] Activate empathy excellency
-[X] Stunt: After a moment's pause Molly gives the slightest of nods. "This one is not for you, but I suppose I should save the child's life after having interrupted her quickening" she says, in an almost uncomfortably conversational tone.
--[X] Turning to the unfortunate fledging, Molly pins her eyes in place beneath her gaze "If you wish to live you will listen carefully and do what you are told. Understand?" Pausing for a timid nod, she continues.
--[X] "Get up, and step outside with me. We will see about settling your partner's furor"
--[X] Turning back to the elder vampire, a hint of something cold and hungry seeps back into her voice "You will save your victim's life, and we will speak about how this shall proceed, before this situation grows unpleasant " the unspoken 'for you' hanging thick in the air.
-[X] Stand outside in the rain with the kid, where Molly can clearly see what passes in the house, and give her basic orders based on preparing to meditate. Question her on what exactly she knows about herself and what happened here.
—[X] Once it seems like her distress has passed use occult to fake an arcane gesture, poke her on the forehead, and order her back inside.
Something like this maybe?
If we don't like the answers killing them is still on the table, but as a rule I don't want to do that with people who we make long term promises to or their families.
That being the case, getting more info before committing seems like a decent plan, which also positions us to subvert both of them without having the old guy immediately tear off to start shit with us at the first opportunity.
Which we could probably handle, but I'd rather not start that kind of conflict unprepared.
Edit:
My bet here is that this is really bad for the human half, even while protected by MiS.
The charm protects you from inherent consequences of your power, but doesn't protect you from consequences of its use or interactions that come about because of what you use your powers for.
A fomor pyromancer who's hands get burned as part of using their abilities would be immune to their own magic, but they could still be burned to death by the fires they start around themselves.
The human half of a white vamp is at least partially involved in the feeding process, and there's an energy sharing component of how the demon half handles energy.
So the human's soul would likely end up in close contact with unrestricted internal essence as it destabilizes and pops off in the face of the demon half.
Edit: correcting excellency selection in the plan
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[X] Offer the girl a chance to serve you in exchange for taming her Hunger
-[X] Leadership excellency
-[X] STUNT: With nary a sound, the corona of green flames expands around you, the banner of your soul made manifest. The flames gently caress the young vampiress. You speak, and you voice echoes, reverbating across the shadows of room: "You haven't yet killed anyone, Sitha, and so I shall grant you a choice. Bend the knee to me now, and your Hunger will abate, for none shall touch those that swear to follow me. Or feed on your elder - he shall survive it, this I guarantee. The woman, however, is not for you"
-[X] Leadership excellency
-[X] STUNT: With nary a sound, the corona of green flames expands around you, the banner of your soul made manifest. The flames gently caress the young vampiress. You speak, and you voice echoes, reverbating across the shadows of room: "You haven't yet killed anyone, Sitha, and so I shall grant you a choice. Bend the knee to me now, and your Hunger will abate, for none shall touch those that swear to follow me. Or feed on your elder - he shall survive it, this I guarantee. The woman, however, is not for you"
I get the desire to go for the full recruitment vote, but I don't think we can work this out in its entirety right now.
Primarily because of the issues with the older vampire. He's subdued for now, but we didn't fully crush his will. He's going to react to what is probably his daughter apparently being spirited away by a haunted corpse.
We can likely beat him, though as an elder white court member there are good odds he's clever enough to pick a viably annoying approach, but his daughter is unlikely to react well to that.
Gunpoint recruitments of disgruntled minions are effectively the same as building up weak points in your own organization.
This kid isn't a desperate feral looking to escape the hunger after years of misery, MiS isn't that big of a temptation to her long term yet.
Doing a full recruitment right now seems like it'd result in a situation where there's no action we can take that doesn't undermine our own position one way or another.
Primarily because of the issues with the older vampire. He's subdued for now, but we didn't fully crush his will. He's going to react to what is probably his daughter apparently being spirited away by a haunted corpse.
We can likely beat him, though as an elder white court member there are good odds he's clever enough to pick a viably annoying approach, but his daughter is unlikely to react well to that.
Gunpoint recruitments of disgruntled minions are effectively the same as building up weak points in your own organization.
This kid isn't a desperate feral looking to escape the hunger after years of misery, MiS isn't that big of a temptation to her long term yet.
Doing a full recruitment right now seems like it'd result in a situation where there's no action we can take that doesn't undermine our own position one way or another.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
This is my concern as well.
I don't really want to recruit either of them to begin with, but doing it under duress when they're not already scraping rock bottom and still have resources to call upon from whatever family, faction, or organization they're a part of, that's just asking for trouble. I would vote to kill them both before inviting a completely predictable and expected betrayal.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I figured the fact that we can assign Thomas to manage her to take out a lot of the string. It makes them unsure if this is a Raith plot or not.
Also I am just willing to bet on the good nature in people. It might not work out but it's still worth doing.
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That's a problem for us in a few ways though. The first being that white vamps are intensely political. Knowing Thomas is working with/for an outsider is ammunition to use in their games. Which we might not see unt it's too late, and can't fix with cyber devils and money. It makes them more dangerous and gives them additional options if they go for the backstab because they can spin it as something more than a personal problem.
As to the inherent good nature of people (or the lack thereof); at best it doenst matter here and at worst it's actively in our way.
As far as they're concerned Molly is a scary monster from way out of town that burst in on them and started making demands backed by force. Demands that have already put one of them in life threatening condition for reasons we won't explain.
They look related and the older guy got an intimacy bonus on the defense, so he clearly cares and they're almost certainly close family.
When Molly, unpredictable monster from out of nowhere, demands unconditional fealty to save his daughter(?) from a situation she created* how is he going to respond? What is he going to assume, and fear about the fate that awaits Sitha?
He has zero reasons to believe in any good will from us, and to be fair we have been debating killing then both so he isn't exactly wrong to feel that way. He can't read the thread/Molly's mind, and if he could the mercurial shift from murder to recruitment wouldn't exactly fill him with confidence on the safety or stability of hanging around her.
This is the issue I was trying to outline. If he comes at us at all then injuring him in our response will almost certainly turn Sitha even further against us, making her more a hindrance than a help. We can't simultaneously beat the shit out of people's families and demand genuine loyalty from them. If we can't beat the shit out of the guy after giving him plentiful motive to come at us then we essentially give him all the time in the world to pick where to stick the knife.
Hence my vote. We use MiS to get the demon back under control, figure out the details of who these two are, and then make a decision about if we're willing to let them live or not.
If (and only if) they're safe to let walk/recruitable, then the next step would be arranging some sort of dels that gets us exposure so we can make them want to work for us. We need them both to want, or at least accept, such an arrangement for it to actually work out.
* From his perspective anyway. They were the ones in here killing people so I don't think he has a leg to stand on, but a Skavis of all people isn't going to feel that way.
Back at keyboard...
I see no reason to give him additional free information at this stage.
2)Lemme put it this way:
What do you think his reaction is going to be if what he thinks is an archdevil offered servitude to his daughter/granddaughter/descendant?
He cares enough about the girl that he got a 2 dice bonus to his Willpower roll from his Intimacy towards her.
And he's knowledgeable enough about the East to mistake us for a Kuei-Jin elder.
Which means that he knows about Yomi, the Yomi Kings, and why they are dangerous.
Kuei-Jin elders are horrifically dangerous, but can be negotiated with.
An archdevil of the Yomi Hells? Is a whole different level of corruption. Spooking the guy by going all green fire and eyes could unintentionally start a fight as he tries to heroically sacrifice himself to give the kid space to flee
Now to catch up on other posts.
1)He already thinks we are Jade Court.
I see no reason to give him additional free information at this stage.
2)Lemme put it this way:
What do you think his reaction is going to be if what he thinks is an archdevil offered servitude to his daughter/granddaughter/descendant?
He cares enough about the girl that he got a 2 dice bonus to his Willpower roll from his Intimacy towards her.
And he's knowledgeable enough about the East to mistake us for a Kuei-Jin elder.
Which means that he knows about Yomi, the Yomi Kings, and why they are dangerous.
Kuei-Jin elders are horrifically dangerous, but can be negotiated with.
An archdevil of the Yomi Hells? Is a whole different level of corruption. Spooking the guy by going all green fire and eyes could unintentionally start a fight as he tries to heroically sacrifice himself to give the kid space to flee
Now to catch up on other posts.
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No its a hit. The elder vampire says so outright.
Furthermore, its worth comparing how everyone else historically deals with Masquerade violations.
When the city of Milwaukee went missing on satellite photos in 1994, it was printed in a tabloid. When Sue's skeleton was left in a field after Dead Beat, it was called a student prank. They didnt even bother doing fuckall after the Loup Garou tore through a police station; the survivors are all still serving cops.
The video of Dresden and Murphy fighting the Loup Garou ended up online and was just downsampled, ridiculed and vanished.
Butters even had physical evidence of Rampire bodies from Bianca's mansion after Dresden burned it down.
He was committed to a psychiatric ward for observation.
Masquerade protections lean towards ridicule and discredit and disappearance of evidence.
Exactly because if you ran around murking people for this sort of thing, a trail of bodies will draw attention.
Dead people can become martyrs. Living mockeries less so.
He didnt.
He didnt pull his gun, he didnt move when Molly pulled his charge off Greene and slapped her back into consciousness.
Looks plenty intimidated to me.
Read the update again.
Molly can literally see the fear in his eyes. He has some idea of just how deep the shit pile goes.
Why?
Why would we care about MiS getting out? Why would we kill the girl's guardian as an infosec measure, and leave the girl alive?
This entire line of suggestions makes no logical sense.
She cant choose for herself.
She is a fledgeling currently suffering a debuff from her Hunger acting up, and Molly is rolling 16 dice with DPoE and BSM active for a cumulative -3 DC buff to her social.
Thats not a setup for informed decisionmaking. She's likely to do whatever we tell her to which will make it stop hurting.
We're 7/9 WP, and if we save the agent's life, we probably recover 1 WP.
We're fine.
Noted.
Leadership does not apply; we're not her boss or in a position of authority yet.
Empathy or Intimidation.
And we already have an Intimidation Excellency running.
I was thinking it applied to being a compelling leader and therefore to ordering them around, but fair enough. Still going for the empathy excellency though, so that we don't drop to mortal levels when carrying our the questioning or anything that isn't pure intimidation if my vote wins.
Given how hyper paranoid you tend to be I am shocked you can't see the problem. If it get out Molly can end various torments. Every powerful person that stands to lose their entire power-base of minions must immediately set out to kill Molly as soon a possible. They cannot ignore Molly as inventively all of the younger people that are not indoctrinated loyal will flock to Molly. Molly becomes a known direct threat to their power, which if not stopped will eventually overrun their entire organization if not dealt with now.
I think the issue is that since they clearly have significant bonds trying to recruit the kid after murdering a close family member in front of her is just setting ourselves up for betrayal.
If we have to initiate violence we shouldn't expect to have good relations with the survivors.
1)It involves entering service with Molly Carpenter, and doing what she tells you. Costs unknown.
We know Molly has no interests in that direction, but most dont. And we still feel like an archdevil, which is something even the baddest predators of Chicago regard with trepidation.
This is not a unique ability.
We KNOW Winter can already do that sort of thing because we see the Leanansidhe do it onscreen in Changes; they can even destroy a Whampire's Hunger altogether. And deals with some infernal powers can do the same or better.
Not many vampires lining up.
Because many vampires would rather risk other people's lives than their own autonomy.
Or are simply smart enough to look gift horses in the mouth.
2) What @BronzeTongue said.
EDIT
Thomas has known our father for five years.
Knows Harry's assessment of our family. Was literally in the same building when we Exalted.
He knows where we came from.
Dont assume that the same holds true for others.
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Lots to unpack here.
1)Old dude Skavis is freaking out badly. Interesting that he pegs us as Kuei Jin; dude is more travelled than the norm.
Its worth remembering that most WoD Kuei Jin are not daywalkers. They dont burn in sunlight, but they rot in minutes.
Hence they avoid the sun. That Molly just...strolled up the sidewalk without a care at 5pm on a late summer day, then showed off high end elder powers explains why the Skavis here is being so.....cautious.
2)Righteous hegemon? That is an interesting claim for a whampire to make here. I wonder what backs it.
Similarly, his claim that we'd draw collective action from the supernatural community (dark-dwellers) and human society(daylight world). Bluff? Or nah?
3)Sarah Greene's folly and willingness to expose us all? Butters was literally autopsying Rampire corpses after Dresden burned down Bianca St Claire's court, and his questions only got him sent to the psych ward. The Loup Garou tore up a police station and murdered a bunch of cops. The security video about Dresden and Murphy killing it was on the Internet.
The Red Court outright sends a hit team to the Chicago FBI building in Changes.
So what could Sarah Greene have to say that wouldnt just be exposed to ridicule as the babble of a grieving woman?
Whats worth killing a federal agent for?
And how did Old Skavis even know about her intentions?Or her alleged folly?
4)Madeline Raith demonstrated in Turn Coat that Whampires can outright make you forget, or be unable to talk about stuff.
She did it to some poor lawyer she hired as a cutout.
If a relative neophyte like Madeline can do that, why is it an issue for a Skavis elder?
5)I get the impression that either Sarah Greene or her dead husband was working for a faction of the White Court, or some supernatural faction. Either that, or someone has been telling tales that they were in order to get them killed.
I think we need to get our hands on her landline and cellphone records. And that of her dead husband.
6)Perverse?
I think they mean inconvenient; if you value human lives less than your own, its much easier to sacrifice some disposable human than to have several Whampires available to donate power to Awaken a new one.
Or its just Tradition
*insert fiddler on the roof memes*
I dont think there's any magical interference preventing it; the Raiths are documented to have fed on each other in canon. Lord Raith did it to dominate his daughters. Lara Raith ate her cousin Madeline Raith alive after she betrayed House Raith, tried to get them in a war with the wizards and personally tried to kill Lara.
Old Skavis resists with Willpower 8 + Intimacy 2. 10 dice at DC6. 4 successes. Great.
Sitha rolls Willpower to regain consciousness. 5 dice at DC6. 4 successes. Great.
Old Skavis rolls Intimidate. 8 dice at DC7. -1 success. Fail but not botch.
Molly rolls Int+ Occult to understand vampire feeding problem. 9 dice at DC6. 4 successes. Great
Molly rolls Per + Empathy...7 dice at DC2. 7 successes. Legendary
Everybody rolled pretty well except when the Skavis tried to Intimidate Molly
When Molly rolled Intimidate, she had -3 DC from DPoE and BSM, but there was a +2DC from something unknown.
No idea what it is.
Still, 9 successes on Intimidation are enough to make a Skavis elder not move when we manhandle his relative, and keep his hand from his gun.
So not too shabby!
COMMENTARY
1)Old dude Skavis is freaking out badly. Interesting that he pegs us as Kuei Jin; dude is more travelled than the norm.
Its worth remembering that most WoD Kuei Jin are not daywalkers. They dont burn in sunlight, but they rot in minutes.
Hence they avoid the sun. That Molly just...strolled up the sidewalk without a care at 5pm on a late summer day, then showed off high end elder powers explains why the Skavis here is being so.....cautious.
2)Righteous hegemon? That is an interesting claim for a whampire to make here. I wonder what backs it.
Similarly, his claim that we'd draw collective action from the supernatural community (dark-dwellers) and human society(daylight world). Bluff? Or nah?
3)Sarah Greene's folly and willingness to expose us all? Butters was literally autopsying Rampire corpses after Dresden burned down Bianca St Claire's court, and his questions only got him sent to the psych ward. The Loup Garou tore up a police station and murdered a bunch of cops. The security video about Dresden and Murphy killing it was on the Internet.
The Red Court outright sends a hit team to the Chicago FBI building in Changes.
So what could Sarah Greene have to say that wouldnt just be exposed to ridicule as the babble of a grieving woman?
Whats worth killing a federal agent for?
And how did Old Skavis even know about her intentions?Or her alleged folly?
4)Madeline Raith demonstrated in Turn Coat that Whampires can outright make you forget, or be unable to talk about stuff.
She did it to some poor lawyer she hired as a cutout.
If a relative neophyte like Madeline can do that, why is it an issue for a Skavis elder?
5)I get the impression that either Sarah Greene or her dead husband was working for a faction of the White Court, or some supernatural faction. Either that, or someone has been telling tales that they were in order to get them killed.
I think we need to get our hands on her landline and cellphone records. And that of her dead husband.
6)Perverse?
I think they mean inconvenient; if you value human lives less than your own, its much easier to sacrifice some disposable human than to have several Whampires available to donate power to Awaken a new one.
Or its just Tradition
*insert fiddler on the roof memes*
I dont think there's any magical interference preventing it; the Raiths are documented to have fed on each other in canon. Lord Raith did it to dominate his daughters. Lara Raith ate her cousin Madeline Raith alive after she betrayed House Raith, tried to get them in a war with the wizards and personally tried to kill Lara.
Molly rolls Intimidation. 16 dice at DC6. 9 successes. Legendary +4
Old Skavis resists with Willpower 8 + Intimacy 2. 10 dice at DC6. 4 successes. Great.
Sitha rolls Willpower to regain consciousness. 5 dice at DC6. 4 successes. Great.
Old Skavis rolls Intimidate. 8 dice at DC7. -1 success. Fail but not botch.
Molly rolls Int+ Occult to understand vampire feeding problem. 9 dice at DC6. 4 successes. Great
Molly rolls Per + Empathy...7 dice at DC2. 7 successes. Legendary
Everybody rolled pretty well except when the Skavis tried to Intimidate Molly
When Molly rolled Intimidate, she had -3 DC from DPoE and BSM, but there was a +2DC from something unknown.
No idea what it is.
Still, 9 successes on Intimidation are enough to make a Skavis elder not move when we manhandle his relative, and keep his hand from his gun.
So not too shabby!
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