I think the main thing you're overlooking is that the Empire is already leaning towards civil war. Which would still screw the ES, especially if it kicked off while we're fighting the Ith and the Cloud Tribes, but it's a big enough threat to the Imperial Throne that they would probably try something to keep the WT from actively antagonizing everyone invested in our diplomacy project
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
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I think the main thing you're overlooking is that the Empire is already leaning towards civil war. Which would still screw the ES, especially if it kicked off while we're fighting the Ith and the Cloud Tribes, but it's a big enough threat to the Imperial Throne that they would probably try something to keep the WT from actively antagonizing everyone invested in our diplomacy project
- Location
- Finland
Or would make them join WT in doing so, depending on who gets to call the narrative, which is why we need a success we can parade in public before Sun gets one.
The Throne will side with who ever looks like the biggest success*
*with very variable definitions of success largely based on imperial cultural supremacist attitudes.
ling qi can cultivate the undivaded moon by blending the other five faces of the moon to her main three using compatible concepts like the white sky folk this way we get to dual cultivate both siystems like Sun Shao and the cai did It
We to can become broken Mc's
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/His/Him
[X] Allow Inzha and Rostam to guide the conversation.
We are going to be their guest, so allowing them to to have priority in guiding the conversation is polite IMO. We have been very focused on ourselves without allowing our nominal equals a lot of control over discussion. It also might enable us to get a better understanding of a potential ally (or enemies) thought process. Often diplomacy is more successful when both sides have an understanding of one another.
Plus I want to see what yrsillar has in store for us!
We are going to be their guest, so allowing them to to have priority in guiding the conversation is polite IMO. We have been very focused on ourselves without allowing our nominal equals a lot of control over discussion. It also might enable us to get a better understanding of a potential ally (or enemies) thought process. Often diplomacy is more successful when both sides have an understanding of one another.
Plus I want to see what yrsillar has in store for us!
You are moving the goalpost here.
We were talking about the Western Territories drawing the Emerald Seas into this hypothetical war with the Polar Nations through the Imperial Throne. Like a said in my earlier post, the Throne only raised an army when it looked like the Emerald Seas might actually lose, or at least suffer grievous harm. Similarly, legitimizing Sun Shao's conquest was done only after the conflict had already ended.
The Western Territory starting a war with the Twisted Pine will not automatically involve the Emerald Seas. Therefore your theory that Shao will seek to start that war for that explicit purpose makes no sense.
[X] Ask after what they hope to see gained and done here.
That's fair. My point is that they have agency, they aren't compelled to back whatever Sun Shao tries if they think it will go badly
Musings on cultivation projects incoming:
When Ling Qi has started Thief of Names she will have that, plus Songseeker's Ceremony, Starless Night's Reflection, Beast King's Savage Dirge, Melodies of the Spirit Seekers, Laughing Flight of the Wind Thief, Winter Hearth Resounding, Unstoppable Glacier's March, Final Frost's Serenade and Soul of Ice to pick from.
That's ten (10) different categories. Completely overwhelming. Therefore I began pondering how best to cut down on the list.
Now I know that there's no way in hell the thread would actually vote like this, but I thought it would be a useful thought exercise.
It is my hope that next turn we will master MoSS, and there's been talk of doing at least one more Songseeker project, because the Moon Aunties are clearly invested in peaceful contact between the Emerald Seas and White Sky, and doing one of their projects would give them an opportunity to meddle.
Supposing we do that, then after the summit we have SNR with two projects remaining, UGM with probably two projects remaining, SOI, and one project remaining from SSC. Yrs has said that the current SSC projects are capstones for now, so I don't think we'll get more for that art before G6.
That's six cultivation projects, so in two post-summit turns we could cut down the list of arts to choose from to Beast King's Savage Dirge, Laughing Flight of the Wind Thief, Thief of Names, Winter Hearth Resounding and Final Frost's Serenade. A much more manageable five, instead of the soon to be ten.
When Ling Qi has started Thief of Names she will have that, plus Songseeker's Ceremony, Starless Night's Reflection, Beast King's Savage Dirge, Melodies of the Spirit Seekers, Laughing Flight of the Wind Thief, Winter Hearth Resounding, Unstoppable Glacier's March, Final Frost's Serenade and Soul of Ice to pick from.
That's ten (10) different categories. Completely overwhelming. Therefore I began pondering how best to cut down on the list.
Now I know that there's no way in hell the thread would actually vote like this, but I thought it would be a useful thought exercise.
It is my hope that next turn we will master MoSS, and there's been talk of doing at least one more Songseeker project, because the Moon Aunties are clearly invested in peaceful contact between the Emerald Seas and White Sky, and doing one of their projects would give them an opportunity to meddle.
Supposing we do that, then after the summit we have SNR with two projects remaining, UGM with probably two projects remaining, SOI, and one project remaining from SSC. Yrs has said that the current SSC projects are capstones for now, so I don't think we'll get more for that art before G6.
That's six cultivation projects, so in two post-summit turns we could cut down the list of arts to choose from to Beast King's Savage Dirge, Laughing Flight of the Wind Thief, Thief of Names, Winter Hearth Resounding and Final Frost's Serenade. A much more manageable five, instead of the soon to be ten.
Resolving internal divisions by having related parties exhaust themselves on an external foe is a genuinely tried and true method that's been used throughout history
Letting Sun Shao and the Emerald Seas burn themselves out against the Southerners alongside whatever assistance they can get from their allied sides would leave the Imperial Throne with a bigger relative stick to wield in order to enforce its authority domestically.
Again, we know the Thrones relative perspective on diplomacy with the Polar Nations courtesy of their MoI rep and the general Peakaboo sentiment towards Ling Qi herself:
Deep skepticism or outright hostility.
You're the one that brought up the Imperial Thrones assumed unwillingness to back anyone, dont call it moving the goalpost when you're the one to introduce the tangent or else youd have replied to literally any single one of my other points.
Setting aside that from the start I called it a race to get a Throne-backed deal before Sun Shao started an irreversible shitstorm with the Twisted Pine.
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- Location
- Finland
Yes, the throne has agency.
But in a sense they are also very deterministic in the same way large groups tend to be.
And Sun Shao has the oldest tale on his side.
"We are us, blades forever out against those who are not."
Empire is built on that story, and unless we manage to convince people that the Polar Nations are not just another group to be exterminated and/or raided, Sun Shao will have little trouble pushing his narrative.
Hmmm. The most I think about it, the less I like the mystery box option.
The idea behind the 3rd option is to see what they want to discuss and gain information on which are their priorities. But that logic is flawed. The topic they bring up by themselves may no necessarily correspond with what they want to learn most about.
Precisely because they are so interested in spatial storage they may be reluctant to be the ones to start talking about it. After all, if they appear too eager our side will notice their interest and ramp up the demands for allowing access to it.
But if we are the ones to choose the topic then it will be easier for them to ask about the Empire spatial storage methods.
I have been wanting to explore the WS's material wants since our first meeting with all the Emissaries.
This is a prime chance to do so in a friendly and private setting, so it would be a shame to let go of it in favor of a mystery box that may or may not help us. Learning what they would like to gain from the Summit would help us for sure.
The idea behind the 3rd option is to see what they want to discuss and gain information on which are their priorities. But that logic is flawed. The topic they bring up by themselves may no necessarily correspond with what they want to learn most about.
Precisely because they are so interested in spatial storage they may be reluctant to be the ones to start talking about it. After all, if they appear too eager our side will notice their interest and ramp up the demands for allowing access to it.
But if we are the ones to choose the topic then it will be easier for them to ask about the Empire spatial storage methods.
I have been wanting to explore the WS's material wants since our first meeting with all the Emissaries.
This is a prime chance to do so in a friendly and private setting, so it would be a shame to let go of it in favor of a mystery box that may or may not help us. Learning what they would like to gain from the Summit would help us for sure.
Oliver_Twister
Idea-Man, He Who Shits Ideas
- Location
- West Africa
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think we can do UGM while we're doing Starlit Labyrinth.
Contemplating the glaciers of the Wall while we venture inside one that's kept an enemy trapped for millennia is very fitting, imo. Maybe we can also pick it up if we visit the White Sky's lands. I don't see where it might fit otherwise. There seems to be a lot of dislike for the art, so it'll need to fit narratively to work. Lots of pushback otherwise.
I want to do all the WHR projects, but I think we should do Garden of Mists and see how it changes the art before we delve into it more. If we're doing Garden of Mists, Zhengui needs to be there. I don't want to do it without him.
I think we can and should finish MoSS next turn, but it'll depend on the project's text. But finishing it, even if only to finish another art before we get a new one (The Thief of Names), is a valid reason to do so. We'll still have the same number of arts to focus on.
BKSD, LFWT, ToN, and FFS will be cultivated either way, so that only leaves SNR. SNR has only two projects left, so we can finish it, even if we spread the projects out. However, some people dislike it, so there may be some pushback.
I think SoI should be removed and integrated into FFS, but it looks like Yrsillar is firm on it since it hasn't been integrated into FFS. We'll need to wait a while to see, I guess. (Also, I just realised that Soul of Ice will literally be Winter's Heart's evolution if it's like the Imperturbable Soul trait chain. That's cool).
And then all that'll be left is the Imperturbable Soul trait quest, which may change since people don't like it based on the name. I'm like 90% sure the name may change depending on our insight and the trait chain, so I don't see it as a problem, but social arts have shown that chain actions are messy.
SSC, I want to deal with the after-effects of Dreaming Songstress before we start another project since they're all meant to be capstones and might pile on even more plot threads.
My proposal for T18 is FFS (Ice and Dust), MoSS, and ToN. We can contemplate Cycles with Ice and Dust as we leave the sect, and think about Truth and identity with Thief of Names.
We'll need to see the actual text for the next MoSS project to see if it fits, but I'm hoping it's something based on Sincerity or Communication, to really synergize with ToN and the tribulation.
And then T19 will be SSC (Hidden Scribe/Grinning Wind), SNR (It's Depths without End), and LFWT (Boundaries Untrodden). Hidden Scribe/Grinning Wind after we've resolved our problems from Dreaming Songstress. Both narratives work for the summit, but I prefer Hidden Scribe. Mainly because it can have some funky secret-revealing combos with It's Depths Without End and Boundaries Untrodden.
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Sometimes you can learn more from a question than from an answer.
[X] Allow Inzha and Rostam to guide the conversation.
[X] Allow Inzha and Rostam to guide the conversation.
- Location
- Spain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
And BKSD when!? 😭
Besides, that fits well with the objectives of the summit...
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Oliver_Twister
Idea-Man, He Who Shits Ideas
- Location
- West Africa
- Pronouns
- He/Him
From what we see here, though the reps for the Seared Lands and Tangled Pines are here to represent different factions of the White Sky. The White Sky, like us, is one polity with varying factions. We know what the factions in the Emerald Seas want. However, we don't know what the White Sky factions want.
Looking at their interests, the Seared Lands seem to be a combination of the Bao (mercantile) and the Wang (geomancy), while the Tangled Pines are a combination of the Bao (resource extraction) and Jia (militant nature).
Last turn, we know the general interests of the Wang, Jia, and Bao, but not what they specifically wanted from the summit. We learned what they wanted and started to plan accordingly. Then, we got the Polar Nation projects so that we could learn about what they wanted to gain from it, so that we could also plan accordingly. That's why I'd rather we ask them what they want. We've already done it to the ES factions. We should do it to the WS factions to complete the puzzle and start sorting out how we can align or divert everyone's interests to get maximum satisfaction
I'd rather we ask directly and have a clear understanding of what they want instead of relying on unclear implications based on other topics. The summit is our big break, after all, and we want to satisfy all parties involved.
Plus, knowing what they want, wording and all, can really help us during negotiations and risk assessment. In the recent arc, we knew the wants of all the parties involved. Xia Ren wanted security. The MoI wanted cultural purity and information security. The WS wanted more interaction and cooperation. Knowing their interests and what they wanted to gain helped us assess the risks of the votes and decide when to give and when to hold to satisfy everyone involved.
This whole meeting is based on business and how the polities interact (as per the previous vote). We've already done the small talk. Diving into the subject of interest, their material interests and wants, is a natural continuation. We can have further discussions about things of interest after we have gotten all the important things out of the way.
[X] Ask after what they hope to see gained and done here.
I agree Primacy of Beasts can fit into T18 nicely, especially since we're currently acting as mediators. Depending on how the event roll goes, it can have even more synergy. But, tbh I'm hoping ToN can fill that role instead, and I am currently prioritising MoSS over BKSD, mainly because we are mostly done with it, and I am certain that the thread will complete BKSD, but much less so for MoSS, especially with two new successors of high importance in play.
- Location
- Staring into the void
[X] Ask after what they hope to see gained and done here.
- Location
- FR
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Thief of Names
NaanContributor
Provider of delicious flatbread, and nothing else.
- Location
- Hawaii
[X] Ask after what they hope to see gained and done here.
- Location
- South Africa
[X] Ask after what they hope to see gained and done here
[X] Ask after what they hope to see gained and done here