Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Musings on cultivation projects incoming:
When Ling Qi has started Thief of Names she will have that, plus Songseeker's Ceremony, Starless Night's Reflection, Beast King's Savage Dirge, Melodies of the Spirit Seekers, Laughing Flight of the Wind Thief, Winter Hearth Resounding, Unstoppable Glacier's March, Final Frost's Serenade and Soul of Ice to pick from.
That's ten (10) different categories. Completely overwhelming. Therefore I began pondering how best to cut down on the list.
Now I know that there's no way in hell the thread would actually vote like this, but I thought it would be a useful thought exercise.
It is my hope that next turn we will master MoSS, and there's been talk of doing at least one more Songseeker project, because the Moon Aunties are clearly invested in peaceful contact between the Emerald Seas and White Sky, and doing one of their projects would give them an opportunity to meddle.
Supposing we do that, then after the summit we have SNR with two projects remaining, UGM with probably two projects remaining, SOI, and one project remaining from SSC. Yrs has said that the current SSC projects are capstones for now, so I don't think we'll get more for that art before G6.
That's six cultivation projects, so in two post-summit turns we could cut down the list of arts to choose from to Beast King's Savage Dirge, Laughing Flight of the Wind Thief, Thief of Names, Winter Hearth Resounding and Final Frost's Serenade. A much more manageable five, instead of the soon to be ten.

I think we can do UGM while we're doing Starlit Labyrinth.

Contemplating the glaciers of the Wall while we venture inside one that's kept an enemy trapped for millennia is very fitting, imo. Maybe we can also pick it up if we visit the White Sky's lands. I don't see where it might fit otherwise. There seems to be a lot of dislike for the art, so it'll need to fit narratively to work. Lots of pushback otherwise.

I want to do all the WHR projects, but I think we should do Garden of Mists and see how it changes the art before we delve into it more. If we're doing Garden of Mists, Zhengui needs to be there. I don't want to do it without him.

I think we can and should finish MoSS next turn, but it'll depend on the project's text. But finishing it, even if only to finish another art before we get a new one (The Thief of Names), is a valid reason to do so. We'll still have the same number of arts to focus on.

BKSD, LFWT, ToN, and FFS will be cultivated either way, so that only leaves SNR. SNR has only two projects left, so we can finish it, even if we spread the projects out. However, some people dislike it, so there may be some pushback.

I think SoI should be removed and integrated into FFS, but it looks like Yrsillar is firm on it since it hasn't been integrated into FFS. We'll need to wait a while to see, I guess. (Also, I just realised that Soul of Ice will literally be Winter's Heart's evolution if it's like the Imperturbable Soul trait chain. That's cool).

And then all that'll be left is the Imperturbable Soul trait quest, which may change since people don't like it based on the name. I'm like 90% sure the name may change depending on our insight and the trait chain, so I don't see it as a problem, but social arts have shown that chain actions are messy.

SSC, I want to deal with the after-effects of Dreaming Songstress before we start another project since they're all meant to be capstones and might pile on even more plot threads.

My proposal for T18 is FFS (Ice and Dust), MoSS, and ToN. We can contemplate Cycles with Ice and Dust as we leave the sect, and think about Truth and identity with Thief of Names.

We'll need to see the actual text for the next MoSS project to see if it fits, but I'm hoping it's something based on Sincerity or Communication, to really synergize with ToN and the tribulation.

And then T19 will be SSC (Hidden Scribe/Grinning Wind), SNR (It's Depths without End), and LFWT (Boundaries Untrodden). Hidden Scribe/Grinning Wind after we've resolved our problems from Dreaming Songstress. Both narratives work for the summit, but I prefer Hidden Scribe. Mainly because it can have some funky secret-revealing combos with It's Depths Without End and Boundaries Untrodden.

While I do like MoSS, and it's obviously an art Ling Qi has to master to advance in her Way, I'm doubtful of his immediate use in the Summit. It's true that some of its lessons can be applied to human negotiations, specially between foreign, unknown entities. However, MoSS is still primary an art to safely interact with more inhuman spirits and get them into a deal on our favor. Coercion, intimidation and even straight up violent suppresion are also tools in its kit. That's not something we want to apply to the Summit.
Well, I guess the new project can be awesome and totally fitting for the Summit. We'll have to wait and see.

Personally I'm pretty set in doing Hidden Scribe next turn.
This is just pure speculation but I think that the chance of additional Moon attention may be a visit/blessing of the Twin Moons. I mean, this is the description Ling Qi got from the archierves the first time she researched the Moon aspects.
Hidden Scribe: You have asked the second question, and looked upon the world with the eyes of a seeker if only for a moment. Delve further into mystery and the questions that underlie the world of now. Advances the Mystery and Causality Projects by one step on completion. 70% Chance of additional Moon attention on completion. 50 XP Spiritual Cultivation (0/8)
The two half moon phases were regarded as one entity, the Reflective Moons. They were quiet and contemplation, self reflection and peace, and togetherness. Diplomats often invoked them at the beginning of volatile negotiations.

Volatile Negotiations. If we don't invoke them now, I don't know when we will. If we could burn several wagonloads of expensive incense sticks in a great pyre to appeal to them, I would totally do it.
Hmm? What was that? That's not how incense sticks work? Excuse me, but according to priestess Ling Qi NeoWeilu doctrine, that's totally the right way of worship.

In a serious note, I don't think we should wait until we solve the Nightmare Tribulation after effects to do Hidden Scribe. Quite the opposite, really. Ling Qi leaned heavily in the Hidden Moon in that arc. Both before delving into Dream with choosing Thief of Names and even during the Tribulation's finale. It would be perfectly natural for her to ponder her connection to the Hidden Moon, her still most neglected Moon aspect, after that.
Moreover, the Tribulation has unsettled her Truth Insigth; and it happened precisely because Ling Qi chose the Hidden Moon and accepted the need of having secrets, both herself and others. Advancing her understanding of the nature of the Hidden Moon is the best way to evolve and redefine her Truth Concept.

I'm also adamant about doing 1 FFS Project each turn until we fulfill the G6 breakthrough requirement. It can be Ice and Dust or the new project. We can space apart any remaining projects once that it's done.

Which only leaves one open slot. That one I'm ambivalent about.
On one hand, it pains me to not advance BKSD. I really like that art and I have been wanting to advance it since we got the Phantasmal Mastery trait, to no avail. It's hard to get traction for it, though luckily Primacy of Beasts theme fits the Summit pretty well (I just want to be able to summon a giant bear, goddamnit).
I'm also reticent to add yet another new art's projects to our never-dwindling list of pending ones. However, I can't deny that even the base ToN techniques can be really useful for the Summit. We are in political crunch time, so it makes sense to focus on political applicable projects.
If we create ToN next turn, then we'll also be able to advance one of its projects during the Summit turn next (since the Summit lasts for a month).

I think I'll wait to see if the text for creating ToN reveals some new information before taking a decision.
We have 1 pre-Summit Art Projects vote, the Summit turn, and then the after summit plans.
It could be
Turn 18 (pre-Summit): Hidden Scribe, Final Frost's Serenade Project, Create Thieves of Names.
Turn 19 (Summit): Final Frost's Serenade Project, Thieves of Names Project, Primacy of Beasts/MoSS final Project

For after the summit plans. I would like to star the SoI train Quest. FFS is going to be only half as effective without it. Starting the self-improvement cold themed quest after stablishing a pact with the WS seems pretty appropiate.
The arts I would like to focus on are BKSD, SNR and LFWT; in that order of priority. That's assuming we have reached the required advancement of FFS.

Some people really like it, but WHR doesn't really appeal to me. I think that it is because, even if I can see the usefulness of its techniques, I can't remember it ever being actively used at all, at least not in any noticeable way. During combat there isn't a single moment where you can say "Oh, Ling Qi is using that WHR's technique!" as it happens with all her other arts (the ones with available projects, at least).
And most people that want to advance it don't want to make the art itself stronger, they just want to do Garden of Mists to turn it into a formation art. Which I still don't understand how it will affect the art's other projects and techniques. Garden replaces Music with Formation, and WHR techniques work through music, so wouldn't they be rendered useless?

UGM is meh. I guess it would be fine to do it when we visit the Starlight Labyrinth.
 
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While I do like MoSS, and it's obviously an art Ling Qi has to master to advance in her Way, I'm doubtful of his immediate use in the Summit. It's true that some of its lessons can be applied to human negotiations, specially between foreign, unknown entities. However, MoSS is still primary an art to safely interact with more inhuman spirits and get them into a deal on our favor. Coercion, intimidation and even straight up violent suppresion are also tools in its kit. That's not something we want to apply to the Summit.
Well, I guess the new project can be awesome and totally fitting for the Summit. We'll have to wait and see.

The reason people like me keep pushing for rushing MoSS is mechanical: after turn 18, we'll no longer have a way to get more than 2 points/ turn for MoSS (except omakke points, but we can't burn an infinite amount of those in it either). That would mean needing more than 1 cultivation action to get the capstone of MOSS, which is a giant waste of time ressources, and I doubt we could get the voting base to vote for it.

Since, as you said, MoSS is exactly the kind of arts LQ needs to learn in the role she's been assuming of priestess/ diplomate, we need to make sure she finishes it while it's still possible. I'd honestly rather delay either thief of Name or FFS (we can pass it over a pair of time without it becoming a blocking factor to get to G7) than MoSS, because once again, if we pass it over now, we might be forced by action economy to never finish it (of course, if say, Veins of the Earth suddenly gains the Balance keyword or something ridiculous like that happens, I'll be much more amenable to review my opinion).
 
The reason people like me keep pushing for rushing MoSS is mechanical: after turn 18, we'll no longer have a way to get more than 2 points/ turn for MoSS (except omakke points, but we can't burn an infinite amount of those in it either). That would mean needing more than 1 cultivation action to get the capstone of MOSS, which is a giant waste of time ressources, and I doubt we could get the voting base to vote for it.

Since, as you said, MoSS is exactly the kind of arts LQ needs to learn in the role she's been assuming of priestess/ diplomate, we need to make sure she finishes it while it's still possible. I'd honestly rather delay either thief of Name or FFS (we can pass it over a pair of time without it becoming a blocking factor to get to G7) than MoSS, because once again, if we pass it over now, we might be forced by action economy to never finish it (of course, if say, Veins of the Earth suddenly gains the Balance keyword or something ridiculous like that happens, I'll be much more amenable to review my opinion).

I see. It galls me to be "forced" to choose an Art Project for such mechanical reasons. Dedicating 2 actions to a single Art Project is unviable with how many we have pending. We'll have to wait and see how many successes the project after Bastion will require, though I strongly doubt it will be less than 5. As I understand it, 4 is the max we can reach without the Argent Vent.

Not sure where they come from. Wasn't there an excell about that somewhere?

I wonder if there is a chance that Paying Respects will let us keep access to the Argent Vent. One can only hope.
Hanyi could also start giving some Music successes, why doesn't she? The same for the Cathedral of Winds. We have a surprisingly small source of Music successes. Only our cultivation art as far as I can see.

MoSS also have the keywords Bargaining, Sincerity, Understanding. It's not crazy we could gain some bonus there if we perform well in the Summit. I'm grasping at straws here.

In case all else fails and we have to do MoSS final project next turn, then, from the projects I wanted to do, we should drop Hidden Scribe, FFS or ToN. I would like to see which projects ToN offers before the summit and Hidden Scribe is a must as well. So then FFS is the only choice left.
Though I really don't like doing a turn without FFS as that may translate to reaching G6 (no G7, btw) a turn later.
 
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I see. It galls me to be "forced" to choose an Art Project for such mechanical reasons. Dedicating 2 actions to a single Art Project is unviable with how many we have pending. We'll have to wait and see how many successes the project after Bastion will require, though I strongly doubt it will be less than 5. As I understand it, 4 is the max we can reach without the Argent Vent.

Not sure where they come from. Wasn't there an excell about that somewhere?
yup, there's a google spreadheet here: Cultivation Menu Tracker maintained by the mathheads on the discord.
 
In case all else fails and we have to do MoSS final project next turn, then, from the projects I wanted to do, we should drop Hidden Scribe, FFS or ToN. I would like to see which projects ToN offers before the summit and Hidden Scribe is a must as well. So then FFS is the only choice left.
Though I really don't like doing a turn without FFS as that may translate to reaching G6 (no G7, btw) a turn later.
About that, yrs' planning an overhaul of turn structure post summit which will, among other things, make them significantly longer in story (I think the length of the turn will be keyed off the length of the retainer/ personnal/ professionnal actions, and they will all be at least 1 week, but more likely significantly longer). So I really wouldn't assume anything about how turns will look like post summit.

edit: I'd also post the fief's spreadsheet, but it's not protected from vandalism...
 
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Huh, looking at the bonus spreadsheet I just realized that only WHR benefits from the Rooted Wings (Support) success.
Curious, as Ling Qi was suppossed to be an exotic/support specialist.
At least she got the exotic part just right.

Edit: Btw, where do the Suyin and Meizhen bonuses come from? They seem quite random. I mean, Suyin helps with SSC and FFS? And Meizhen with MoSS of all things? Why?
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Oliver_Twister on Jan 9, 2023 at 10:39 AM, finished with 113 posts and 50 votes.
 
While I do like MoSS, and it's obviously an art Ling Qi has to master to advance in her Way, I'm doubtful of his immediate use in the Summit. It's true that some of its lessons can be applied to human negotiations, specially between foreign, unknown entities. However, MoSS is still primary an art to safely interact with more inhuman spirits and get them into a deal on our favor. Coercion, intimidation and even straight up violent suppresion are also tools in its kit. That's not something we want to apply to the Summit.
Well, I guess the new project can be awesome and totally fitting for the Summit. We'll have to wait and see.

Personally I'm pretty set in doing Hidden Scribe next turn.
This is just pure speculation but I think that the chance of additional Moon attention may be a visit/blessing of the Twin Moons. I mean, this is the description Ling Qi got from the archierves the first time she researched the Moon aspects.



Volatile Negotiations. If we don't invoke them now, I don't know when we will. If we could burn several wagonloads of expensive incense sticks in a great pyre to appeal to them, I would totally do it.
Hmm? What was that? That's not how incense sticks work? Excuse me, but according to priestess Ling Qi NeoWeilu doctrine, that's totally the right way of worship.

In a serious note, I don't think we should wait until we solve the Nightmare Tribulation after effects to do Hidden Scribe. Quite the opposite, really. Ling Qi leaned heavily in the Hidden Moon in that arc. Both before delving into Dream with choosing Thief of Names and even during the Tribulation's finale. It would be perfectly natural for her to ponder her connection to the Hidden Moon, her still most neglected Moon aspect, after that.
Moreover, the Tribulation has unsettled her Truth Insigth; and it happened precisely because Ling Qi chose the Hidden Moon and accepted the need of having secrets, both herself and others. Advancing her understanding of the nature of the Hidden Moon is the best way to evolve and redefine her Truth Concept.

I'm also adamant about doing 1 FFS Project each turn until we fulfill the G6 breakthrough requirement. It can be Ice and Dust or the new project. We can space apart any remaining projects once that it's done.

Which only leaves one open slot. That one I'm ambivalent about.
On one hand, it pains me to not advance BKSD. I really like that art and I have been wanting to advance it since we got the Phantasmal Mastery trait, to no avail. It's hard to get traction for it, though luckily Primacy of Beasts theme fits the Summit pretty well (I just want to be able to summon a giant bear, goddamnit).
I'm also reticent to add yet another new art's projects to our never-dwindling list of pending ones. However, I can't deny that even the base ToN techniques can be really useful for the Summit. We are in political crunch time, so it makes sense to focus on political applicable projects.
If we create ToN next turn, then we'll also be able to advance one of its projects during the Summit turn next (since the Summit lasts for a month).

I think I'll wait to see if the text for creating ToN reveals some new information before taking a decision.
We have 1 pre-Summit Art Projects vote, the Summit turn, and then the after summit plans.
It could be
Turn 18 (pre-Summit): Hidden Scribe, Final Frost's Serenade Project, Create Thieves of Names.
Turn 19 (Summit): Final Frost's Serenade Project, Thieves of Names Project, Primacy of Beasts/MoSS final Project

For after the summit plans. I would like to star the SoI train Quest. FFS is going to be only half as effective without it. Starting the self-improvement cold themed quest after stablishing a pact with the WS seems pretty appropiate.
The arts I would like to focus on are BKSD, SNR and LFWT; in that order of priority. That's assuming we have reached the required advancement of FFS.

Some people really like it, but WHR doesn't really appeal to me. I think that it is because, even if I can see the usefulness of its techniques, I can't remember it ever being actively used at all, at least not in any noticeable way. During combat there isn't a single moment where you can say "Oh, Ling Qi is using that WHR's technique!" as it happens with all her other arts (the ones with available projects, at least).
And most people that want to advance it don't want to make the art itself stronger, they just want to do Garden of Mists to turn it into a formation art. Which I still don't understand how it will affect the art's other projects and techniques. Garden replaces Music with Formation, and WHR techniques work through music, so wouldn't they be rendered useless?

UGM is meh. I guess it would be fine to do it when we visit the Starlight Labyrinth.

One of the reasons Raising the Bastion was picked was because Yrsillar said it may apply to really inhumane cultivators; some were hoping we'd use it when talking to Xia Ren. Since that moment has passed, my guess is it'll apply to the White Sky's guardian tree instead, especially since we're going to their side of the camp.

It's also been mentioned that the Spirit Speaker trait affects humans as well as spirits. So it's applicable to the summit. I'm hoping we explore that side more.

Spirit Speaker(G): 6
You understand something of the alien ways of spirits, and they in turn may understand humanity through you. When you speak, most spirits listen at least long enough to hear you out. When speaking to other humans your experience makes you more able to wield honesty as a knife, never speaking a direct falsehood without intent.

How Spirit Speaker applies to humans is another reason why I'm hoping to do it with ToN. I don't think her Truth concept and first insight were damaged by secrets, but rather the conflict between Truth/Sincerity. All truths aren't subjective; however, you HAVE to be sincere because sincerity is the measure of one's worth.

Ling Qi previously thought they were the same, but she's realised that they can be and are different. You can say things and be absolutely truthful, but not sincere, like with the proposal sent to Xia Ren. You can also be sincere without being truthful, like with Sixang and their lie by omission.

The Spirit Speaker trait touches on that a bit, with the wielding honesty as a knife bit. But well, we'll need to see what the text for the next MoSS project says to be sure on any of this. I'm hoping our tribulation colours it a bit. Assuming my interpretation is true, ofc. I really want to address the problem quickly so that we have a clear understanding of the problem's root cause. It's really not clear.

For WHR, I like some of its projects, such as Winter Reinforcement, but I'm not sure if they'll ever be picked. I'm also curious to see how Garden of Mists alters the art, and what it'll mean for the other projects. Would it alter each project individually or would it auto-complete the art, leaving a new formations art as a successor?

For UGM, I personally like it, but I don't think it'll be picked if it doesn't work well with the narrative. Starlight Labyrinth is one of the only scenes where I can see it working, and working on one of the few arts we can use to attack and manoeuvre starspawn while we're clearing an infestation just seems smart to me.

As for SSC and the extra Moon attention, I'll be annoyed if it goes from Hidden to other Moons (that are not Grinning or Dreaming). We don't need more things to juggle right now.
 
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How Spirit Speaker applies to humans is another reason why I'm hoping to do it with ToN. I don't think her Truth concept and first insight were damaged by secrets, but rather the conflict between Truth/Sincerity. All truths aren't subjective; however, you HAVE to be sincere because sincerity is the measure of one's worth.

Ling Qi previously thought they were the same, but she's realised that they can be and are different. You can say things and be absolutely truthful, but not sincere, like with the proposal sent to Xia Ren. You can also be sincere without being truthful, like with Sixang and their lie by omission.

The Spirit Speaker trait touches on that a bit, with the wielding honesty as a knife bit. But well, we'll need to see what the text for the next MoSS project says to be sure on any of this. I'm hoping our tribulation colours it a bit. Assuming my interpretation is true, ofc. I really want to address the problem quickly so that we have a clear understanding of the problem's root cause. It's really not clear.

I don't quite agree that Ling Qi has much of a conflict betwenn Truth/Sincerity. She had already understood long ago that a person can be insincere without uttering a single lie, or that even if a person is being sincere it doesn't necessarily mean they are telling the truth. Lying by omission is still being insincere, IMO, but they could also simply be wrong. What they think is the truth actually isn't.
She has seen people do that, purposely and unconsciously, and has employed that tactic herself. The boundaries have become blurrier with the tribulation and need to be worked on, but that's not the core of her cultivation's unstability.

As I see it, Ling Qi's inner conflict are two-fold.

First there is her Truth Concept.
Truth II (0/3): To call all truths subjective can only bring ruin.
It's still a simple and straightforward one. However, if all truths can't be subjective that implies there exist objective, universal truths that apply to everyone. However, Ling Qi just learned that people are Multitude, which means each one has their very own truth. Even so, there has to be beliefs that are inherently wrong or evil, or else everything would be allowed and trying to build a better society is a futile effort.
Is a consensus truth the right way forward, then? From what she has seen and experienced, it isn't. The agreement of the majority still can bring forth harm and evil, and even a perfect consensus just leads to the stagnation of society. Dissidence is necessary.

So that's Ling Qi Truth conflinct, I would wager. The clash between individual truths and communal or absolute truths. How much can a person diverge from the mainstream narrative? Which are the truths that shouldn't, mustn't, be questioned, even in Multitude?

Second there is her Sincerity Insight
Sincerity is the measure by which the worthiness of the self and ones guests should be measured. (Truth Community, Home)
Its important to note we are talking Sincerity here, no Truth. Sincerity relates closer to Expression in Ling Qi's Way than Truth does. Sincerity is the Expression of the self. Of course, if you are outright lying or otherwise hiding information then you are being insincere, so we can consider Truth as prerequisite for Sincerity, even though it isn't enough on its own.
This Insight tells Ling Qi that the worth of a person in a relationship is determined by how Sincere they are. In other words, how much of themselves they decide to Express. This applies to Ling Qi herself.

But in the Nightmare Ling Qi concluded that it's fine for people to not share everything about themselves with others, even in the most intimate relationship. More than fine, really. It's necessary for them to have the choice of not sharing something if they don't want to. But doesn't that mean they're worth less, since they are being less Sincere? Even if its by omission? The important part is that they are not expressing all of themselves.
It's not wrong to say that a relationship is closer, "worth more", the more sincere both integrants are with each other. Or that for a relationship to go beyond mere acquaintances, it's necessary to reach a certain threshold of Sincerity. Of understanding of each other.
How many things can your lover or friend hide from you before they stop being your lover or friend? How many secrets are they allowed to have? In the Nightmare Ling Qi also realized that choosing to bind yourselves to others comes with certain impositions. A certain degree of Sincerity, or in specific themes, is demanded for the relationship to continue or advance. Ling Qi did that with her ultimatum to Sixiang.

Then, where is the limit? How much intimacy, insincerity (understood as lack of Expression of the self), can you allow to your partner before the relationship starts degrading? Losing worth? How much do you have the right to demand, force them, to share with you?

These are the questions Ling Qi has to answer.
The firsts ones relates to her understanding of the role of Truth in Community; while the second ones deal with the value and place of Sincerity in her personal relationship.
 
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It's still a simple and straightforward one. However, if all truths can't be subjective that implies there exist objective, universal truths that apply to everyone. However, Ling Qi just learned that people are Multitude, which means each one has their very own truth. Even so, there has to be beliefs that are inherently wrong or evil, or else everything would be allowed and trying to build a better society is a futile effort.
Is a consensus truth the right way forward, then? From what she has seen and experienced, it isn't. The agreement of the majority still can bring forth harm and evil, and even a perfect consensus just leads to the stagnation of society. Dissidence is necessary.

So that's Ling Qi Truth conflinct, I would wager. The clash between individual truths and communal or absolute truths. How much can a person diverge from the mainstream narrative? Which are the truths that shouldn't, mustn't, be questioned, even in Multitude?
Honestly I think the core of the truth conflict is more basic than that: the voterbase thinks Having The Truth Concept is extremely cool, but also thinks doing Extremely-Untruthy-Things is way cooler than doing Truth-y-Things.
 
I don't quite agree that Ling Qi has much of a conflict betwenn Truth/Sincerity. She had already understood long ago that a person can be insincere without uttering a single lie, or that even if a person is being sincere it doesn't necessarily mean they are telling the truth. Lying by omission is still being insincere, IMO, but they could also simply be wrong. What they think is the truth actually isn't.
She has seen people do that, purposely and unconsciously, and has employed that tactic herself. The boundaries have become blurrier with the tribulation and need to be worked on, but that's not the core of her cultivation's unstability.

As I see it, Ling Qi's inner conflict are two-fold.

First there is her Truth Concept.

It's still a simple and straightforward one. However, if all truths can't be subjective that implies there exist objective, universal truths that apply to everyone. However, Ling Qi just learned that people are Multitude, which means each one has their very own truth. Even so, there has to be beliefs that are inherently wrong or evil, or else everything would be allowed and trying to build a better society is a futile effort.
Is a consensus truth the right way forward, then? From what she has seen and experienced, it isn't. The agreement of the majority still can bring forth harm and evil, and even a perfect consensus just leads to the stagnation of society. Dissidence is necessary.

So that's Ling Qi Truth conflinct, I would wager. The clash between individual truths and communal or absolute truths. How much can a person diverge from the mainstream narrative? Which are the truths that shouldn't, mustn't, be questioned, even in Multitude?

Second there is her Sincerity Insight

Its important to note we are talking Sincerity here, no Truth. Sincerity relates closer to Expression in Ling Qi's Way than Truth does. Sincerity is the Expression of the self. Of course, if you are outright lying or otherwise hiding information then you are being insincere, so we can consider Truth as prerequisite for Sincerity, even though it isn't enough on its own.
This Insight tells Ling Qi that the worth of a person in a relationship is determined by how Sincere they are. In other words, how much of themselves they decide to Express. This applies to Ling Qi herself.

But in the Nightmare Ling Qi concluded that it's fine for people to not share everything about themselves with others, even in the most intimate relationship. More than fine, really. It's necessary for them to have the choice of not sharing something if they don't want to. But doesn't that mean they're worth less, since they are being less Sincere? Even if its by omission? The important part is that they are not expressing all of themselves.
It's not wrong to say that a relationship is closer, "worth more", the more sincere both integrants are with each other. Or that for a relationship to go beyond mere acquaintances, it's necessary to reach a certain threshold of Sincerity. Of understanding of each other.
How many things can your lover or friend hide from you before they stop being your lover or friend? How many secrets are they allowed to have? In the Nightmare Ling Qi also realized that choosing to bind yourselves to others comes with certain impositions. A certain degree of Sincerity, or in specific themes, is demanded for the relationship to continue or advance. Ling Qi did that with her ultimatum to Sixiang.

Then, where is the limit? How much intimacy, insincerity (understood as lack of Expression of the self), can you allow to your partner before the relationship starts degrading? Losing worth? How much do you have the right to demand, force them, to share with you?

These are the questions Ling Qi has to answer.
The firsts ones relates to her understanding of the role of Truth in Community; while the second ones deal with the value and place of Sincerity in her personal relationship.

I don't see Ling Qi's acceptance of secrets to be the cause. I see the need for secrets to be like Motion. Ling Qi has heavily invested in Motion and change, but she's also accepted that stillness and pauses have their uses and importance too. It feels more like an expansion of her understanding than the fundamental clash needed to damage a concept and stress an insight. She'll try to make sure that people communicate, but they can choose not to communicate as well. You need two hands reaching out and all.

Plus, if Ling Qi got a heart demon from something that's integral to one of her patrons, I'll be very confused. Her fear of intimacy (and its conflict with the passion and intimacy of Dreaming) makes sense because it was pointed out at the start of the story and continuously developed. Hidden and keeping secrets? Not so much.

However, the last time Ling Qi brought up Truth/Sincerity, she used them interchangeably, and the insight that's under duress is the one that assigns Sincerity to Truth (not Expression, otherwise it'll be part of the insight).

There was power in the words of spirits, power that she herself could emulate just a little. Power that made words mean what they said. She would call it Sincerity. Or perhaps Truth. If it could be faked, she had never experienced it. That was the only reason she could bring herself to cross the grubby little yard even now. Because the yawning void of the doorway still made the hairs on the back of her neck stand on end.

So I don't think it's unreasonable to assume the problem is with the difference in the two. LQ continuously ties the two together, but they're different. As you said, Truth can be subjective; one can have many truths. Multitude exists, and identity is rarely a single objective thing (at least, not in the lower realms). This conflicts with her concept, that most truths aren't subjective.

However, Sincerity, intent, the power that makes words mean what they say, is different. Since there's no ambiguity, it cannot be subjective. However, if Sincerity is Truth, then Sincerity is subjective. And if the measure of your worth in s subjective, then what does that say about Community (since the sincerity insight is also tied to Community and Home)? And then down the heart demon rabbit hole, we go.

So, she will need to differentiate the two, and come to terms with the subjectivity of Truth, as you said, and rethink what Sincerity is, since it's so heavily tied to her concept of Truth. I do like your take about differentiating between absolute and individual truths.

Since Ling Qi has really started to explore shen (what with the incident with Xia Ren), I'm hoping Truth will develop like Endings. There are two types of Truth.

There is truth, Law, will enforced onto the world. This is the individual truth. It can change and have different magnitudes, with some being so large and constant that they become a facet of life. For example, Yao's truth that people die when they are killed :V.

And then there's truth, Sincerity and intent, the ability to make words mean what they say, which is needed to communicate and build connections that build Community. You can't change Sincerity. In that case, it'll also be tied Expression, as you've said.

I'm not sure if this last part makes sense though. They'll be different, but connected.


Honestly I think the core of the truth conflict is more basic than that: the voterbase thinks Having The Truth Concept is extremely cool, but also thinks doing Extremely-Untruthy-Things is way cooler than doing Truth-y-Things.

I think it's a neat way to bring back the Truth concept :p. It's pretty integral to Ling Qi, being in her first insight and all but with the death of social arts, we don't have any meaningful sources to explore it.

Plus I want Glorious Oppression Mom to look upon us and see the monstrosity that we've made out of one of her core concepts.
 
Turn 17: Arc 3-3
They were led to a small clearing a short distance off the main road winding down into White Sky territory. Here there were a number of soldiers dressed in lighter uniform than that of the main White Sky force. She could see the similarities to Inzha and Rostams clothes in the flowing cut and geometric patterns. The layered scale patterned armor under their cloaks had a reddish burnish to it that she wasn't certain came from the metal itself or some kind of enamel. Their primary weapon of choice seemed to be heavy, barbed spears, with short, highly curved sabers as a sidearm.

There were no structures of wood and stone here. Rather at the center was a huge weatherworn red circular tent. A yurt, she thought they were called, though the cloud tribe examples she had glimpsed were much smaller and less ornate. Two of the guards stood at the entrance flap and clapped their fists to their chests as Rostam and Inzha approached.

She and Xuan Shi were welcomed inside right after. The inside of the yurt was not what she expected. It wasn't the silk and cloth of gold and richness of a nobles traveling pavilion nor the simple undecorated inside of a nomad's shelter. Rather, it was a warm, almost hot interior. At its center was a scentless and smokeless fire, burning on top of some manner of cut red-brown bricks that looked like dirt or clay. She didn't think it was animal dung either, the way she had heard many nomad tribes made their fires.

The ground was covered by thick carpets of richly dyed wool, covered in geometric patterns. The walls similarly were hung with wool panels depicting what she assumed were legendary events interspersed with everyday scenes. The supports of the conical ceiling were bone and ivory. It was well furnished as well, with a round cloth covered table across from the entrance on the other side of the fire. Around the edge were set what looked like long low couches or divans, with cabinets and other containers set between them.

"Welcome, welcome. Home is far away, but we bring a little with us, take any seat you like," Rostam said generously, turning to face them as Inzha moved further in to tend to the fire, she took an iron poker from beside the hearth pit, carefully nudging a few of the burning bricks. The flames flickered briefly black and green as she did.

She saw Xuan Shi looking intently at the fire, but she herself kept her eyes on Rostam, she wasn't going to be distracted with technical things. "Thank you very much, Emissary," she said, subtly tapping Xuan Shi's hand.

"The hospitality of thy home is most welcome," he said, only barely missing a beat.

"Ha! It is a very good home, my wife built it herself," Rostam laughed, turning to follow them as they filed in and took the couch on the right side of the fire, a comfortable and polite space between them.

"Our eldest helped greatly," Inzha said easily replacing the poker in the rack by the fire. She took a seat by her husband on the couch opposite. The two sat right up next to each other, untowardly close by imperial estimation. Openly entwining their hands even. "But let us not deflect with personal matters."

"Yes, I agree," Ling Qi said. "I think the most relevant question is this. From your perspective what is the goal of this summit. What do you wish to take away from it, as members of the White Sky."

"Hoh, you can hardly expect one to reveal their price before the haggling even begins," Rostam said.

"Your opening offer then, if you would like," Ling Qi said, bowing her head.

Rostam hummed, rubbing his thumb across the back of his wife's hand. He didn't look at her, nor she him, but Ling Qi could all but feel the silent communication between them.

"The obvious, an agreement of nonagression, mechanisms in place to adjudicate disputes between us without immediate escalation," Inzha said. "These are things we are here to establish before anything else."

"An institution which both parties respect, words set to paper and bound in blood and oaths. Such a foundation is the bare minimum," Xuan Shi agreed.

She gave a small nod, she'd talked to him, occasionally in person, mostly through letters, on the subject of how the Xuan handled foreigners. They did so with a careful distance. Quarters set aside on certain Xuan Wu cities, or smaller isles and ships marked as neutral ground. They had a set of laws and treaties, a compact of behavior which all present at these places were required to follow. Being able to understand and agree to this compact was a requirement for docking. There was some kind of judicial element as well, but they hadn't fully discussed that.

"Yes, you understand," Rostam agreed.

"One must trust that their objections will be heard and not simply replied to with force, this is the foundation of any agreement or contract," Ling Qi said. "We can agree on this goal certainly."

"It is easy to agree on goals," Rostam chuckled. "As for the rest… new goods are always an interest, and new markets for ours, but this is far. Insights into the matters which effect both of our lands would also be a boon… What of your Empire. Tell me true, why are you bothering with this, when we are still so far from you?"

"To a large extent, because I and my Lady are pushing for it," Ling Qi said, frowning a little. It was best to be somewhat honest here. "We are young but we feel that reducing the scope of Southern conflict is the best course. The mountains have long troubled us, and this war with the Twelve Stars and the underground folk is enough high conflict for many generations. We seek peace because we do not see value in further war. If the southern borders can be made free of conflict, our province and people will be relieved of a great burden."

"We have some experience with neighboring raiding tribes, so I am sympathetic to this," Inzha said, rating her chin on her hand. "I hope you do not expect us to be responsible for all peoples of what you call 'the Wall'."

"A measure of open places to speak and for disputes of sovereignty to be debated serves in this," Xuan Shi said.

"I do not wish to put that responsibility on you. I have many opinions on the matter…. But the official position of the Emerald Seas is that it is time for all raiding and warmaking on our border to stop," Ling Qi hoped there could be better, less cruel ways to accomplish that, but she also knew it was the ultimate sticking point. The Emerald Seas, even the tribes that had made it up before there was any such entity, had been under threat from the cloud tribes since before the first written history had been set down.

In the exhaustion after Ogodei the reprisals had only been able to go so far, but the deep bitterness of their people had only worsened. And their waxing strength compared to the scattered tribes gave rise to more strident voices. They would not accept the status quo, not with the Duchess here, with the formation of a central army. Maybe it was only temporary, but no one was of a mood to tolerate the state of things any longer. She knew dimly that it wasn't so one sided as that, the Emerald Seas could be brutal in its reprisals, but that was where her own people were coming from.

Rostam frowned deeply, his mouth almost disappearing under his mustache as he observed her. "That will be quite a project. But it will be better for us all if border tribes do not draw our realms into conflict. A terrible waste all around."

She studied his face, he was a bit doubtful of their ability to accomplish that, she thought. Or at the least he considered it a difficulty in negotiations.

"You have spoken of thieving neighbors yourselves, how does your land deal with such?" Xuan Shi asked.

"By the foothills being barely populated," Rostam admitted. "The bog's may be poisoned, and treacherous, but they are ours. The things that howl in the hills and stalk the steppes are less friendly than all but the most vicious bog spirits. The clans which wander there are small and insular… and not attractive raiding targets."

She supposed she hardly heard of the eastern cloud tribes raiding the Golden Fields either, with the Grave of the Sun in the way.

"Some raid the routes further east anyway, and this is dealt with harshly, but mostly, those who come to us are those tired of a life in wandering, the outcast and exiled and disaffected," Inzha said. "Whole tribes… in the past, it is said that Cloud men were among those who founded the Jewel cities, and their strength and speed is what cleared the roads and made the great trade routes with the Men of Light possible. But this is not… applicable, I think."

"Hm, someone would need to patrol the mountains, if we're ever to move move anything back and forth, but aye, not something we can apply to our little talks. The Koliada-"

He cut himself off.

"I have heard that name, Sky Palace Koliada, but I will not pry," Ling Qi said.

Rostam looked embarrassed. "Not my secret to share, but the mouth runs sometimes."

"It does," Inzha said evenly. "Please take no offense. I am sure if things proceed well, Emissary Jaromila might speak on that matter. It may solve some of our mutual issues."

She glanced to Xuan Shi, who lowered his head.

"If this one might ask, It is known to us that thy gods incarnate as cities of your realm. Is it not strange to name a project the same in that?"

Their hosts shared a look of mild surprise. Inzha "...The body of the god Koliada was slain long ago. It is… a prideful thing perhaps, but not blasphemous."

"We will speak no more on it for the moment," Ling Qi said. "You have asked after our position, is there anything else which you seek in negotiations?"

"I think we understand what each other wants here," Rostam said, recovering himself. "We need trust and a method of arbitrating disputes. The rest are merely good to have."

"I will see what knowledge of the Catacylsm and its effects can be shared," Ling Qi said. Knowledge unlike goods did not require expensive trade routes. It was a little troubling that the Golden Fields were the only province which had not made any connection yet though.

"If we are receiving such a boon, perhaps we might be able to share our own experience," Inzha said politely.

"We…" Ling Qi cocked her head, cutting herself off. She had felt a fluctuation of qi at the door, it was ordered, a signal?

Rostam looked chagrined. "Come in, come in."

The flap opened and a soldier of the White sky stepped inside, standing tall and holding his fist to his chest. "Sir! Emissary Jaromila's group is on the approach!"

"Early," Inzha said, pursing her lips.

"Well, honored guests, shall we delay the rest of this for the moment?" Rostam asked.

Ling Qi stood along with Xuan Shi. "Of course, we have gotten to the most critical matter already."
 
"Thank you very much, Emissary," she said, subtly tapping Xuan Shi's hand.

"The hospitality of thy home is most welcome," he said, only barely missing a beat.

Rostam hummed, rubbing his thumb across the back of his wife's hand. He didn't look at her, nor she him, but Ling Qi could all but feel the silent communication between them.
Both pairs using physical contact to talk to each other, Rostam and Inzha totally think they're involved lmao.
 
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I'm really loving this update! We've got some insight on how to build an acceptable foreign quarters and some avenues we can take to integrate cloud nomads without destroying their lifestyle. We'll need to wait for Koliada's completion, but it's possible!

Fun update!



It seems like the city being destroyed didn't actually fully kill Koliada. Which is interesting. They don't stop being great spirits with their body destroyed. Very cool!

One of my theories for GS Ling Qi was like, a home for her clan, or an ever-present Mist that protects her fief. I thought it wasn't possible, but it's back on the table now!

Edit: Also, it looks like we'll complete the set and get all the ducals in soon enough. I wonder how the GF would react to the Seared Lands and the City of Light (not!Persia). They're all polities that have suffered due to the Cataclysm and adapted in different ways. Maybe, just maybe, they'll be able to find a new method/innovation that'll speed up land reclamation.
 
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Some interesting tidbits there about the Jewel Cities and their founding. If they were founded by Cloud Tribe tired of their own ways, it's possible that they're not the same God-Settlements that White Sky has. Sounds like the clans directly bordering the raiders are probably cultivator-settlements, but the Jewel Cities themselves could be fairly culturally distinct from the rest of the Polar Nation. I would even hazard a guess that they are, with how much more contact they likely have with The Men of Light.

I'd be interested in both the arguments that exist to switch lifestyles, and the ways that they themselves have elected to develop their own settlements, if the story of the Jewel Cities is true. Could make for a reasonably better "civilizing" solution than trying to make pure Imperials out of them. Culturally distinct imperial-aligned settlements would be fine, especially if they know how to keep the roads clear.
 
"I will see what knowledge of the Catacylsm and its effects can be shared," Ling Qi said. Knowledge unlike goods did not require expensive trade routes. It was a little troubling that the Golden Fields were the only province which had not made any connection yet though.

"If we are receiving such a boon, perhaps we might be able to share our own experience," Inzha said politely.
Now... to be fair, the Golden Fields has its own problems that need dealing with. Hordes of ash legions, an inhospitable land, and not enough population are large hurdles for them to overcome. It's understandable that they don't want to pick up any trouble from another province.
 
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