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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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[X] [BELEGAR] Nothing
[X] [COLLEGE] Nothing

Changed to also telling Belegar nothing.
Keeping the colleges in the dark but not him seems like a weakness.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Honestly, revealing this actively helps us keep our actual secrets. It puts in people's minds that we're the sort to punctiliously report even things that look bad, which makes them more likely to ignore or disbelieve anything less than extremely compelling evidence of our various actual secrets.

A reputation for honesty makes lying a lot easier when you actually engage in it.
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But the Grey College doesn't want compulsively honest wizards. It wants wizards that understand information security and compartmentalisation.

Mathilde actively shouldn't report things to the Grey College unless they actively need to know them as that's how you do your duty to protect the secrets the Empire needs keeping.

The College trusts her judgement for what she needs to share and what she doesn't. Oversharing is a meaningful security risk and should reduce their trust in Mathilde, not enhance it.

If we report this we're telling them that they need to do something about it, as we should only be reporting things they need to take action on, as otherwise we're wasting their time or spreading sensitive information wider than it needs to be spread.

This just isn't an institution where transparency is rewarded or encouraged, quite the opposite. It's an institution that teaches its members to keep secrets as reflexively as they breath. We have no obligation or duty to tell them about this, that's not how the Grey College operates. We're not meant to report this kind of thing. We're meant to sort it out ourselves if we possibly can.

And they'll be well aware of the using one piece of information as a smoke-screen to hide another more incriminating piece, so it won't even work on its own terms. This is an institution so paranoid that even the absolute reality warping of the Deceiver face of the Coin can backfire as they'd notice the effect.
 
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Alratan said:
But the Grey College doesn't want compulsively honest wizards. It wants wizards that understand information security and compartmentalisation.

Mathilde actively shouldn't report things to the Grey College unless they actively need to know them as that's how you do your duty to protect the secrets the Empire needs keeping.

The College trusts her judgement for what she needs to share and what she doesn't. Oversharing is a meaningful security risk and should reduce their trust in Mathilde, not enhance it.

If we report this we're telling them that they need to do something about it, as we should only be reporting things they need to take action on, as otherwise we're wasting their time or spreading sensitive information wider than it needs to be spread.

This just isn't an institution where transparency is rewarded or encouraged, quite the opposite. It's an institution that teaches its members to keep secrets as reflexively as they breath.
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I think 'a Lady Magister was contacted by a Greater Daemon and told a new Everchosen is imminent' is the sort of thing they 100% want to know about and it being a Greater Daemon who provided the info is useful context to understand the Everchosen thing.

There's no reason to keep the source of that statement about the Everchosen a secret except to protect either herself or the source, and nobody wants a Wizard to be protecting daemons, while the Grey College definitely prefers that their wizards prioritize providing good, accurate, info over hiding said info to protect their reputation.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
I think 'a Lady Magister was contacted by a Greater Daemon and told a new Everchosen is imminent' is the sort of thing they 100% want to know about and it being a Greater Daemon who provided the info is useful context to understand the Everchosen thing.

There's no reason to keep the source of that statement about the Everchosen a secret except to protect either herself or the source, and nobody wants a Wizard to be protecting demons, while the Grey College definitely prefers that their wizards prioritize providing good, accurate, info over hiding said info to protect their reputation.
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The Grey College trusts its Lady Magisters to make the call, and the call that this is certainly a daemonic plot and so the best thing to do is to say nothing to anyone as that's disseminating the information is probably what the daemon wants is very reasonable. They may well prefer not to be told what is likely disinformation produced by the enemy if the Lady Magister exercises her judgement to filter it out.

That's Mathilde's job. She's the person with the responsibility to make the decision. She can also make the decision to share the information about the Everchosen. It's her job to decide whether it's worth the risk that doing so advances the daemon's agenda in such a way that's worse denying the Empire the information this extra data point gives them.

She could also make the call, for example, to tell no one directly but try to find her own corroboration rather than just trusting the word of a greater daemon of the chaos god of lies and passing it on without trying to validate that there's some accuracy to it so that it's more likely to be worth the risk of advancing its agenda.
 
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Ericwinter said:
Probably the same reason she first came. Namely, paying off the debt Mathilde earned by helping murk Drycha.
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Let's not forget that Niedzwenka's very first conversation involved her outright saying how easy it would be to have Zlata in the palm of her hands, and her immediate jump into analysing the place.

This is a woman with an agenda. She isn't just here because she's indebted, she's here because she wants to be.
 
Ericwinter said:
Probably the same reason she first came. Namely, paying off the debt Mathilde earned by helping murk Drycha.
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Kislev owes a debt to Mathilde. but Niedzwenka is not only older than Kislev, but most Kislevians, including the Ice Court, are, from her perspective, conquerors and colonisers. She should have no obligation to fulfil Kislev's debts.

So either she really likes Boris, or Boris has some weird pull over her, or she has a motivation of her own to be involved in this, and all of that is making my spine tingle.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
So either she really likes Boris, or Boris has some weird pull over her, or she has a motivation of her own to be involved in this, and all of that is making my spine tingle.
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If Bretonnia conquered the Empire and replaced the current system of nobility with its own vigilant-aristocracy, would Mathilde stop trying to strengthen the waystones network?
 
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Kislev owes a debt to Mathilde. but Niedzwenka is not only older than Kislev, but most Kislevians, including the Ice Court, are, from her perspective, conquerors and colonisers. She should have no obligation to fulfil Kislev's debts.

So either she really likes Boris, or Boris has some weird pull over her, or she has a motivation of her own to be involved in this, and all of that is making my spine tingle.
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I think she might just believe in the Waystone project. She pretty much said as much when we first met:
Boney said:
"Interesting. It's quite the roster you've gathered here. You think you stand a chance of unpicking the mysteries of the past?"

"I can only hope. Kislev knows more than most that the status quo cannot be sustained indefinitely."

She nods. "And I will not shy away from reminding everyone present of that fact. Even the Ice Witch, if need be. Ever since they arrived, the Ice Court has jealously guarded the nexuses on behalf of their mistress. Even the Sea Elves could not pry them loose from it, not with all the bribes and threats they could muster.
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Several people have made an analogy between the Waystone project and global warming. Well, someone who is literally immortal might take that sort of thing more seriously.
 
mathymancer said:
I think she might just believe in the Waystone project. She pretty much said as much when we first met:

Several people have made an analogy between the Waystone project and global warming. Well, someone who is literally immortal might take that sort of thing more seriously.
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Especially someone that has been around long enough she has seen the network slowly failing, and knows that if it cannot be repaired the amount of time left is ever-shrinking.

But yeah, this isn't about the nation of Kislev for her. She isn't here because of any obligation. She's here because she figures this is the best shot in centuries if not longer, and there may not be enough time to wait for a better one. All Boris likely did was put the word in because he knew she would be interested.
 
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The3rdCorinthian said:
Because those are instant-burnings.

Frankly, even the worst case scenario's for telling the colleges are bad (Waystone project shutdown, everyone hates us, ect.), but they're not "We need you on fire now because the outcry from trying to prevent you from being killed will be so bad the colleges probably wouldn't survive and we'd be back in the bad old days".
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I mean if the Grey College wanted to kill us, the best way they could do it would be to arrange an 'accident' and they know it, and they know we know it etc... so it would be either us or Algard coming out of that office alive depending on how the intrigue rolls worked out. A Grey College that has become convinced Mathilde must die has to kill her before she makes it back to the safety of K8P

Mind I do not think this has any chance of happening unless we take full disclosure, but just as a note I do not think the framing above works, they would not kill Mathilde the Everchosen candidate to avoid public outcry, they would kill her to prevent Everchosen Mathilde, no outry needed.
 
quick question that might already have been asked, but: does Mathilde being in the running for Everchoosen mean that as long as she is alive & interesting to the Four, there can not be an Everchoosen? If so, would this not give an incentive to the Colleges of Magic to make sure Mathilde stays alive & interesting to the Four? Because as long as she is in the running, there is no Everchoosen, giving them more time to prepare defences, prep allies, pre-emtively wipe out hazards, etc. Basically brace for the storm? Thus giving them an incentive to keep Mathililda doing succesfull projects and stunts to keep the Four interested and her in the running?
 
ja.b.n. said:
quick question that might already have been asked, but: does Mathilde being in the running for Everchoosen mean that as long as she is alive & interesting to the Four, there can not be an Everchoosen? If so, would this not give an incentive to the Colleges of Magic to make sure Mathilde stays alive & interesting to the Four? Because as long as she is in the running, there is no Everchoosen, giving them more time to prepare defences, prep allies, pre-emtively wipe out hazards, etc. Basically brace for the storm? Thus giving them an incentive to keep Mathililda doing succesfull projects and stunts to keep the Four interested and her in the running?
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Mathilde is dangerous enough right now that they don't want to risk a version of her hopped up on Chaos juice.
 
ja.b.n. said:
quick question that might already have been asked, but: does Mathilde being in the running for Everchoosen mean that as long as she is alive & interesting to the Four, there can not be an Everchoosen? If so, would this not give an incentive to the Colleges of Magic to make sure Mathilde stays alive & interesting to the Four? Because as long as she is in the running, there is no Everchoosen, giving them more time to prepare defences, prep allies, pre-emtively wipe out hazards, etc. Basically brace for the storm? Thus giving them an incentive to keep Mathililda doing succesfull projects and stunts to keep the Four interested and her in the running?
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It's up to the Four who they choose to bless, so no. If the Colleges tried they'd just do something else. They don't have to be consistent or follow any particular code of conduct.
 
ja.b.n. said:
quick question that might already have been asked, but: does Mathilde being in the running for Everchoosen mean that as long as she is alive & interesting to the Four, there can not be an Everchoosen? If so, would this not give an incentive to the Colleges of Magic to make sure Mathilde stays alive & interesting to the Four? Because as long as she is in the running, there is no Everchoosen, giving them more time to prepare defences, prep allies, pre-emtively wipe out hazards, etc. Basically brace for the storm? Thus giving them an incentive to keep Mathililda doing succesfull projects and stunts to keep the Four interested and her in the running?
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That is literally unknowable as it depends on the whims of Chaos. OOC most likely they would just drop her if it looks like she would hold up the end of the world party too long.
 
Alratan said:
She could also make the call, for example, to tell no one directly but try to find her own corroboration rather than just trusting the word of a greater daemon of the chaos god of lies and passing it on without trying to validate that there's some accuracy to it so that it's more likely to be worth the risk of advancing its agenda.
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So, trust no one with the information.

But investigate any potential Tzeenchtian Schemes by our lonesome, to try to validate the information ourselves. Basically, putting us against a Greater Daemon and Servants with no potential back up? Because that sounds like a Very Bad Idea™️.

Also, you seem to be making the assumption that you positively 100% know what this Daemon's agenda even is. As has been stated many times before, we don't know what it wants, and it's possible opening up communications with trusted friends and allies will negate its plans. So, stating that by telling others we are advancing its agenda is kinda misleading, because we don't know.
 
ja.b.n. said:
quick question that might already have been asked, but: does Mathilde being in the running for Everchoosen mean that as long as she is alive & interesting to the Four, there can not be an Everchoosen? If so, would this not give an incentive to the Colleges of Magic to make sure Mathilde stays alive & interesting to the Four? Because as long as she is in the running, there is no Everchoosen, giving them more time to prepare defences, prep allies, pre-emtively wipe out hazards, etc. Basically brace for the storm? Thus giving them an incentive to keep Mathililda doing succesfull projects and stunts to keep the Four interested and her in the running?
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We don't know the actual criteria for progression in the Tournament. It's possible that If Mathilde stays put long enough and doesnt do anything interesting, even if she lives she might be out of the running.
 
ja.b.n. said:
quick question that might already have been asked, but: does Mathilde being in the running for Everchoosen mean that as long as she is alive & interesting to the Four, there can not be an Everchoosen??
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Boney showed a tournament bracket, wich seems to imply that one can only advance by winning an encounter, but I think that's it. Nothing that would would be known by characters in-universe.

On a completly different note, I know there have been discussions about making a drycha staff and giving it to Eike, but has the possibility of teaching Eike enchanting and staff-turning been raised? There is a nice position to grab at the college for anybody willing to spend a lot of time turning wood/bone and could make for a nice / non-combat oriented career. Plus even if Eike actually hates making staves, she could use knowledge of what goes into it and enchanting in general to turn her share of the EIC in a supplier for that sort of things.
 
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AzrielIlluminare said:
So, trust no one with the information.

But investigate any potential Tzeenchtian Schemes by our lonesome, to try to validate the information ourselves. Basically, putting us against a Greater Daemon and Servants with no potential back up? Because that sounds like a Very Bad Idea™️.

Also, you seem to be making the assumption that you positively 100% know what this Daemon's agenda even is. As has been stated many times before, we don't know what it wants, and it's possible opening up communications with trusted friends and allies will negate its plans. So, stating that by telling others we are advancing its agenda is kinda misleading, because we don't know.
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What is the alternative? The other Lords Magisters drop their projects and start poking Tzeench cults in the hopes of unraveling the will of a Greater Daemon. Mathilde getting a weird Chaos blessing is important to her but that does not mean the Grey College is going to drop all their business to save her. When Lady Magister Grey got one too many hobgoblin assassins on her the entirety of the Grey College did not go try to burn down Chaos Dorf land they just gave her the position of Magistrer Grey where she would be more safe and moved on. That is an example of the most benign form of Grey Cllege help I can think of personally.
 
Mathilde is (apparently) the favoured candidate, but there's nothing stopping the Four from naming anyone Everchosen. They could nominate a random peasant if they thought it was amusing enough.

So Mathilde can't "wait out" the competition—someone is going to be crowned eventually. Mathilde just gets to skip the tournament if she wishes.

Personally, I think Mathilde isn't actually one of the 32 candidates from Boney's tourney bracket (but instead came from outside the ring with a steel chair and wrecked the carefully planned tournament arc), and who ever the last one standing is, will be Everchosen by default, even if Mathilde is still alive and kicking Chaos butt at that time.
 
DragonParadox said:
That is literally unknowable as it depends on the whims of Chaos. OOC most likely they would just drop her if it looks like she would hold up the end of the world party too long.
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yeah, but still. I think that the rest of the Grey College has enough faith in us, that being told "Magic Bird man told us they would really like to recruit us" would not really phase them, I guess? Like sure, Mathilde falling to the dark side would be bad, but any LM falling would be bad. And Chaos is always interested in recruiting people to Chaos's side. So, no real suprise?
And being told that keeping Mathilde succesfully doing stuff against Chaos keeps Chaos interested in recruiting her, and thus potentially delaying the next Everchoosen? Sure, that working is a long shot. But when you're up against an Everchoosen, something that might just get you a bit of extra time is at least worth the shot.
Way I see it, Grey College being told of the job offer would at most make them up their background checks on Mathilda, but they do those anyway, and try to steer Mathilda in projects that might keep Chaos interested in her as Everchoosen to buy some extra time. And I think that being less free in job choices in exchange for possibly delaying the next Everchoosen is a sacrifice Mathilda would take 10 times out of 10
 
deathofrats0808 said:
What? You think Niedzwenka is a thousand years old?!
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Yes, she's the Sea Hag of Kislev, and over 1500 years old.

Boney said:
You give her a moment to wallow in her yearning before you broach the subject you have in mind. "There was something of a confrontation between you and Baba Niedzwenka earlier."

She shrugs, seemingly unconcerned. "This was expected. Baba Niedzwenka is always trouble. Has been since before Kislev was Kislev."

You consider that. "Is it an inherited title?"

"Nie. Just her. Ice Witches eventually rejoin the winter, but Hag Witches get old quick and some stay old forever. She used to be worse, but still likes to interfere with Ice Witch business."
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AzrielIlluminare said:
So, trust no one with the information.

But investigate any potential Tzeenchtian Schemes by our lonesome, to try to validate the information ourselves. Basically, putting us against a Greater Daemon and Servants with no potential back up? Because that sounds like a Very Bad Idea™️.

Also, you seem to be making the assumption that you positively 100% know what this Daemon's agenda even is. As has been stated many times before, we don't know what it wants, and it's possible opening up communications with trusted friends and allies will negate its plans. So, stating that by telling others we are advancing its agenda is kinda misleading, because we don't know.
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No, we shouldn't go out of our way to investigate Tzeentchian schemes on our lonesome. We would instead keep alert for confirmatory events or trends from the EIC and other sources of information.

We don't 100% know what the daemon's agenda is. We can be confident that it has one and that agenda was advanced by speaking to Mathilde. We know that Mathilde saying silent can't particularly advance the reason it spoke to Mathilde, because that's what would have happened anyway if it didn't speak to us. Speaking to trusted allies is almost certain not to negate its plan, as if it's plan depended on us not talking to them about this, it could have guaranteed that outcome by not talking to Mathilde at all. Her talking to them was a very easy to predict potential consequence of it talking to her.

It is very much more likely that he deliberately told her the things about the Everchosen to tempt her to speak to other people about this. We can see multiple reasons why a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch might want to undermine trust in Mathilde, to alienate her from her allies so she may be easier to recruit in future, and to potentially undermine the Waystone project and AV research. There's an obvious motive and benefit from the daemon from that outcome.

By contrast, there's been no plausible suggestion of how the daemon profits if he talks to her and then she keeps her mouth shut. How is the daemon's plan advanced compared to before they spoke? Completely ignoring the daemon's communication and acting as if it never happened can't advance any plan it set in motion by speaking to her because it makes it as close as we can get to if it never spoke to her.
 
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