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I feel people aren't really giving this section its due weight.

This is exactly the sort of consequence we are talking about when we say it casts shade/taints what we do.

Say nothing of the Morbs, of creating liminal realms. The Waystone Project could very easily be harmed.

And for what? Letting them know the suspicious clue we give them about the Everchosen is actually extra suspicious?

I believe that, especially since Mathildes headspace reflects the thread which was in a very high level of paranoia, it's an accurate envisioning of the worst case scenario.

Is it a possibility? Probably. But again, it's a possibilty that would frankly make telling the colleges this stuff an objective trap vote, which Boney rarely if ever does, which is why I suspect it to be a possibility instead of an outright certainty.
 
I believe that, especially since Mathildes headspace reflects the thread which was in a very high level of paranoia, it's an accurate envisioning of the worst case scenario.

Is it a possibility? Probably. But again, it's a possibilty that would frankly make telling the colleges this stuff an objective trap vote, which Boney rarely if ever does, which is why I suspect it to be a possibility instead of an outright certainty.

What's a possibility is the loss of trust being irrevocable. The loss of trust was expressed as a certainty. The latter isn't the worse cast, it's the best case.

Mathilde is fully competent to judge her peers' reaction to her escalating the matter to them. As I've said before, them not trusting her a result of her telling them she can't trust herself to handle the matter seems to be the vote option working as intended. The vote is, I think for, Mathilde to warn the College that she may have been compromised by mental contact with a greater daemon and to be wary of her and her works in future. That's the point, that she may actually no longer be trustworthy and that she/we think the College should actually be cautious of her in future.

Otherwise, there's no need to tell the College about the incident, so Mathilde wouldn't.
 
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OK this I am going to argue against because it is proposing revealing candidacy, yes the Order as a whole is at least as competent as Mathilde so they would probably not make the wrong choice and try to kill us, but take a note that in that vote Mathilde had the option to make the wrong choice as well so they can too. When 'them making the wrong choice' after a vote leads to death or exile maybe it is not the wisest thing to give them the chance to roll low
On the other hand, in this context the offer is very useful knowledge:

This tells the Grey Order that Chaos is attempting to gain us in its corner, not only to smash our plans, but to attain a potent asset of its own, and that as such it will proactively continue to manufacture every means and trick it can use to do so. Because, well, it's going to do that.

An overzealous grey order overreacts. A proactive and wise grey order realizes that contrived bullshit of all sorts is incoming.
 
I believe that, especially since Mathildes headspace reflects the thread which was in a very high level of paranoia, it's an accurate envisioning of the worst case scenario.

Is it a possibility? Probably. But again, it's a possibilty that would frankly make telling the colleges this stuff an objective trap vote, which Boney rarely if ever does, which is why I suspect it to be a possibility instead of an outright certainty.
Ok, we can agree the Waystone Project imploding is a possible consequence of this action.

Why are you advocating we take the risk, then? What's the gain that justifies this?
 
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On the other hand, in this context the offer is very useful knowledge:

This tells the Grey Order that Chaos is attempting to gain us in its corner, not only to smash our plans, but to attain a potent asset of its own, and that as such it will proactively continue to manufacture every means and trick it can use to do so. Because, well, it's going to do that.

An overzealous grey order overreacts. A proactive and wise grey order realizes that contrived bullshit of all sorts is incoming.

it's no about them being over-zealous. It's us telling them we aren't as trustworthy, and then taking us at our word and trusting us less. It's what we're literally asking for by telling them. Otherwise, if we aren't warning them to be on their guard about us, why do we need break information security to tell them about it at all?

The Grey College already knows, as Algard has already told us, that contrived bullshit is always incoming from Chaos regarding their Lord Magisters. Talking to them about this gives them nothing useful, there are no actions they can take beyond trusting us less.
 
I believe that, especially since Mathildes headspace reflects the thread which was in a very high level of paranoia, it's an accurate envisioning of the worst case scenario.

Is it a possibility? Probably. But again, it's a possibilty that would frankly make telling the colleges this stuff an objective trap vote, which Boney rarely if ever does, which is why I suspect it to be a possibility instead of an outright certainty.
A trap vote is when the consequences are unforseen and we had no reasonable way of predicting them. Mathilde's considerations of the worst case scenarios are the opposite of being unforseen. The existence of dangers is being made very clear, so it's not a trap.

To be clear, I voted for disclosure, but it's absolutely valid to point out the risks.
 
Ok, we can agree the Waystone Project imploding is a possible consequence of this action.

Why are you advocating we take the risk, then? What's the gain that justifies this?
It becomes harder for the GD to start manufacturing and planting evidence that we're secretly a Tzeentchian traitor to try and halt the waystone project that way, because the grey college will be forewarned and on the lookout for it.
 
I'm pretty sure that quote is saying we won't have to confess AV and ruin the orbflex. I don't think Boney's said anything on how the colleges will react to us publishing a once in a lifetime magical discovery right after having an encounter with a Lord of Change. I'm only a bit worried about it, because of Thorek, but it's definitely not something we should discount altogether.
My hope (since it looks like "mention the Demon" is winning by a landslide) is that Mathilde tells Algard "Hey, I've got a banger of a result coming real soon and I am worried about this tainting that, should I start lining up a paper trail to demonstrate that this has been in the works for literal decades?" or something similar. Given that this happened while gaining some Shattering insight onto the nature of the Winds' relationship with reality, and what happened last time we dropped a banger of a result on Algard's desk, it seems plausible that Mathilde would proactively broach the subject.

(My other hope is that this works out better than expected, the way telling Belegar about the Waystone info we learned up north actually helped heal his animosity toward Thorgrim rather than exacerbate it.)
 
I feel people aren't really giving this section its due weight.

This is exactly the sort of consequence we are talking about when we say it casts shade/taints what we do.

Say nothing of the Morbs, of creating liminal realms. The Waystone Project could very easily be harmed.

And for what? Letting them know the suspicious clue we give them about the Everchosen is actually extra suspicious?

Okay, lets look at each member of the project in turn and try to gauge their reaction to Mathilde accidently summoning a greater demon:

Lady Magister Elrisse of the Order of Light
-The Gatekeeper, who's job it is to hunt the servants of Chaos. She's also arguably the one who want's to be here the least. Chance of withdrawal: HIGH

Lord Magister Egrimm van Horstmann of the Order of Light
-Owes us big time, a good friend, and also massivly SUS himself. He's probably not going to care. Chance of withdrawal: LOW

Magister Tochter Grunfeld of the Order of Life
-The Druid, so far we've helped legitimise her faith. She's said to be quite practical, in a similar way to Mathilde, and has a lot to personally gain from the project. Chance of withdrawal: LOW to MEDIUM

Lector Aksel of the Cult of Halétha
-The illegal mage. Implicitly trusts Mathilde. Probably not going to make a big deal out of it. Chance of withdrawal: LOW

Lord Hatalath of the Grey Lords
-Has probably killed greater demons on several occasions. Doesn't have many fucks to give. Part of the project as a personal favour to the queen, who needs it to be a success for political reasons. Chance of withdrawal: LOW

Vicereine Cadaeth of the Ward of Frost
-Probably the elf most worried about demonic attention. Has other demands on her time. Chance of withdrawal: MEDIUM

Lecturer Sarvoi of House Tindomiel
-Cultist of the Goddess of Dark Magic. Probably finds the entire encounter endlessly (and worryingly) fascinating. His house is set to profit greatly from the project. Chance of withdrawal: LOW

Runelord Thorek Ironbrow of Karak Azul
-Umgi magic can never be truly trusted, but Mathilde has proven herself to both of the top Runelords in spite of her young age. This situation was a matter of when rather than if, and it isn't important enough to sacrifice one of Azul's few ties to the outside world. Chance of Withdrawal: LOW

Baba Niedzwenka of Erengrad
-Has even fewer fucks than Hatalath. Actually, I'm still not sure why she's even here? Doesn't she have better things to be doing? Chance of withdrawal: MEDIUM

Ice Maiden Zlata of the Hromada Ledyanoy Ved'ma
-What's worse, working with someone who summoned a demon, or going home empty handed to a disapointed Baba? Chance of Withdrawal: MEDIUM

Worst case scenario, we lose Elrisse, Cadaeth, Niedzwenka, Zlata, and maybe Tochter, which is a blow to the project and our creadibility, but still leaves us with enough resources and knowledge that the project won't end on the spot.

Yes. But thee point isn't just that we encountered a Greater Daemon, it's that we think we can't handle the consequences of doing so and need to escalate the matter to the Grey College for them to take further action. That's what telling them is, given the default from what we know, based on discussion about the EIC, is that you only report things that need them to take action.

And this wasn't just an encounter, this was downloading information directly into Mathilde's mind, which is significantly more serious.

Are you suggesting that they Grey Order thinks we should be able to handle a Greater Demon with zero institutional assistance? Because we couldn't even deal with that Slaaneshi demon without help, and nobody has commented on that.

Asking for help isn't a weakness, and if the Grey Order thinks it is, then they are not as clever as I thought they were.
 
On the other hand, in this context the offer is very useful knowledge:

This tells the Grey Order that Chaos is attempting to gain us in its corner, not only to smash our plans, but to attain a potent asset of its own, and that as such it will proactively continue to manufacture every means and trick it can use to do so. Because, well, it's going to do that.

An overzealous grey order overreacts. A proactive and wise grey order realizes that contrived bullshit of all sorts is incoming.

I hate to repeat myself but just because a course of action is likely does not mean it is guaranteed. It was not very likely for Thorgrim to tell us to die well, it still happened because he rolled the unlikely low roll.

In this instance the low roll is death or exile. In that sense this is like our fight with Drycha only we did not stack the deck before finally risking our hand, we cannot stack the deck. We can either fight the fey in the forest... or not walk through the trees. Well OK realistically we can either dive into the middle of the forest or walk though its edge since it does not look like nothing can win at this point, but you get the point.
 
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The Grey College is already on the look out for bullshit from chaos aimed at its Lords Magister. Algard has told us this. Us telling the College makes it no harder and quite possibly significantly easier for the greater daemon to subsequently convince them that we've been corrupted. It's just as easy for it to manufacture evidence as it ever was.

After all, if we tell them, we've already warned them to be on their guard against us because we've potentially been mentally tainted. Mental contact with daemons is know to be corrupting and cause insanity, and I believe both are known to be compounding.

A trap vote is when the consequences are unforseen and we had no reasonable way of predicting them. Mathilde's considerations of the worst case scenarios are the opposite of being unforseen. The existence of dangers is being made very clear, so it's not a trap.

To be clear, I voted for disclosure, but it's absolutely valid to point out the risks.

Note that Mathilde doesn't say that being trusted less is a worst case scenario. She expresses it as if it's a certainty. The worse case is never being trusted as much again, or being executed for being an Everchosen candidate.
 
[X] [BELEGAR] Nothing
[X] [COLLEGE] Incoming Everchosen
[X] [COLLEGE] Nothing

Forgot if I voted for one or two college options, so here.

It becomes harder for the GD to start manufacturing and planting evidence that we're secretly a Tzeentchian traitor to try and halt the waystone project that way, because the grey college will be forewarned and on the lookout for it.
What stopped it from doing so before?

If they can manufacture evidence that good, this conversation with the daemon happening or not is completely immaterial. There is no feasible way for them to prove it happened, because Mathilde herself can't actually do that, and she was there.

All she has is her word that it happened. A word that is about to become significantly less trustworthy.
Worst case scenario, we lose Elrisse, Cadaeth, Niedzwenka, Zlata, and maybe Tochter, which is a blow to the project and our creadibility, but still leaves us with enough resources and knowledge that the project won't end on the spot.
Worst case scenario the project implodes. "Jeopardize the entire project" isn't my opinion, it's what Mathilde sees as a very possible consequence of the certain loss of trust this brings.
 
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My hope (since it looks like "mention the Demon" is winning by a landslide) is that Mathilde tells Algard "Hey, I've got a banger of a result coming real soon and I am worried about this tainting that, should I start lining up a paper trail to demonstrate that this has been in the works for literal decades?" or something similar. Given that this happened while gaining some Shattering insight onto the nature of the Winds' relationship with reality, and what happened last time we dropped a banger of a result on Algard's desk, it seems plausible that Mathilde would proactively broach the subject.

(My other hope is that this works out better than expected, the way telling Belegar about the Waystone info we learned up north actually helped heal his animosity toward Thorgrim rather than exacerbate it.)

I'd be very surprised (and a little disapointed) if Mathilde doesn't already a proper paper trail, especially after she got demon checked for the Queekish stuff.
 
[X] [BELEGAR] Nothing
[X] [COLLEGE] Incoming Everchosen
[X] [COLLEGE] Nothing

True, but I still think that the most immediate threat to Mathilde's mental health is 'I did everything right, I told them and they still suspect me, they still fear me.'

Darker side of the need for headpats.

On the other hand, a Headpat and Anti-Headpat collision sounds like a good way to attract Dark Headpats...
Keeping mum:
1: Maximum blackmail gain for the Smug Bird.
1a: many more ways for our hand to be forced.
2: May cause less contact between Mathilde and her allies.
I think you really need to take a step back here and recall what exactly blackmail is ('Take a step back' as a figure of speech, not an emotional rebuke, sorry): Blackmail is the ability to prove things that other people don't want proven.

If we do not talk, there is nothing the bird can prove. Nothing. It doesn't exist.

There are no cameras.

There are no lie detectors it can get called on us.

There are no witnesses.

There is no blackmail.

Let's reverse this scenario: A prominent Lord of Change just had a Close-Mathilde Encounter. We popped up out of nowhere, flexed at this Bird, and then collapsed a pocket dimension on its head. How can it prove that this happened to anyone? Will any of its friends believe it? No. We are the Boogeyman in its closet. The monster under its bed. The horrid thought lurking in its head. If it tries to talk about it, its therapist will sit it down and ask it if the Lord Magister is in the room with it right now.

It has nothing.
 
Are you suggesting that they Grey Order thinks we should be able to handle a Greater Demon with zero institutional assistance? Because we couldn't even deal with that Slaaneshi demon without help, and nobody has commented on that.

Asking for help isn't a weakness, and if the Grey Order thinks it is, then they are not as clever as I thought they were.

The Grey College can do nothing to help. We know they can't detect mental taint, all they can do is detect if someone is possessed or a shapeshifted daemon. We saw this when we brought in the Queekish dictionary.

All the Grey College can do is be more on guard against us in case the daemon left something else behind in Mathilde's mind that taints her subsequent actions or thoughts.

If we needed to go fight a Greater Daemon we expect to be summoned, it's appropriate to ask for help. For dealing with the after effects of mental contact with a daemon, I would expect them to see escalating it to them to be an admission that we can't trust ourselves and so neither can they. If we could trust ourself, we wouldn't report it. Just as we didn't report our possession by Mork.
 
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What stopped it from doing so before?

If they can manufacture evidence that good, this conversation with the daemon happening or not is completely immaterial.
If we provide advanced warning that a demon is out to fuck with us, it increases the chances of fake evidence being recognised as such.
 
People voting for increased scrutiny as if we dont have von carstein nagash lore and liber mortis. You think the fuzz will ask us for copy of our library instead of covertly searching our stuff? Mathilde could burn for owning either. She is not squeaky clean enough to admit attracting lord of change.
 
I believe you are wilfully ignoring how, in this very update, Mathilde did spell out in no uncertain terms that there will be consequences for disclosing this paranormal encounter.

"Imma double check it again, just to be sure" is not consequences.

"Consequences" in that admitting she fucked up like this will obviously be a hit to her repute, and in that at least the Colleges will probably keep an eye on her for a while just in case. Not that everything we ever write from now on will be considered automatically suspect without consideration, and especially not in the case of a substance that has already been safely used by the Runelords for years at this point.

And I don't think the Project is in any serious risk unless we tell Algard about the Everchosen job offer. Thorek isn't going to stop working on it and risk losing all the political benefits from Mathilde's collaboration just because of a bad run-in with a Daemon; the Colleges still have a bunch of trustworthy wizards, including two Light LMs, keeping an eye on us; and, most importantly, both parties (especially the Colleges) have already benefitted immensely from the Project and will likely continue to do so. That's not even counting the political nightmare that shutting down the project would involve, pissing of the Eonir, the Ulricans and the Kislevites at the same time, nor the fact that if it somehow succeeded it would be a complete game-changer against the forces of Chaos.

If we mentioned that Matty is a possible Everchosen candidate? Yeah, that's when even the people in the project might start having doubts. But just telling Algard that we had a miscast which resulted in a bad run-in with a daemon? I really don't think anyone will pull out just because of that. At most they'd send someone to quietly monitor us... or they would if Lady Magister Elrisse, the Lady Magister in charge of the internal security of the most anti-Chaos College, wasn't already involved in the Project herself and in a perfect position to keep an eye on Matty.
 
"You can't trust the people you care about, because they are raging fanatics who would condemn you for something that is out of your control, just like your parents did."

So fuck that noise, I am absolutely trusting Belegar and Algard, and I want to seek out their advice and wisdom on this scenario, as well as inform them of what we learned.

I hadn't even considered that. Wow. It's going to be *shatteringly* bad if one of them does react poorly. Oh boy.


I am not trying to minimise anything, "deliberately" or otherwise.

You spent the entire post referring to this result as a 'minor miscast' when it wasn't actually a miscast, it was a success that resulted in a greater demon downloading a monologue (and hopefully only that) into our head. That is the deliberate minimization to which I refer.

Please do not accuse me of lying, I find it deeply insulting

I didn't. Don't try to play the refs on this.

If every insight of every Magister or Lord/Lady Magister that ever met a powerful daemon was considered inherently suspect then the Colleges

I've seen a lot of claims taking this form with literally nothing backing it up except "I think it should work this way".

People disagree. You aren't going to win them over by just asserting this over and over without trying to explain and support your reasoning.

I'm only a bit worried about it, because of Thorek, but it's definitely not something we should discount altogether.

Thorek is very political, and this is asking him to put his rep on the line that we are not getting screwed over by a demon with this. He knows he is basically our only backstop. What is he going to ask from us as his price?
 
My hope (since it looks like "mention the Demon" is winning by a landslide) is that Mathilde tells Algard "Hey, I've got a banger of a result coming real soon and I am worried about this tainting that, should I start lining up a paper trail to demonstrate that this has been in the works for literal decades?" or something similar. Given that this happened while gaining some Shattering insight onto the nature of the Winds' relationship with reality, and what happened last time we dropped a banger of a result on Algard's desk, it seems plausible that Mathilde would proactively broach the subject.

(My other hope is that this works out better than expected, the way telling Belegar about the Waystone info we learned up north actually helped heal his animosity toward Thorgrim rather than exacerbate it.)
These are my hopes too. For all we know Algard may be reassured at confirmation that Tzeentch has an eye (and an Eye) on Mathilde.
 
If we provide advanced warning that a demon is out to fuck with us, it increases the chances of fake evidence being recognised as such.
Do you expect them to manufacture a plot whole-cloth that is sufficiently convincing that we get, what, backstabbed in our sleep by a LM hit-squad?

That's "rock falls".

The odds of us not being considered a Tzeentch plant go up staggeringly by us not admitting we had a psychic conversation with a greater daemon of Tzeentch.

Because "compromised" isn't the same thing as "willing participant".
And I don't think the Project is in any serious risk unless we tell Algard about the Everchosen job offer.
Your opinion directly contradicts Mathilde's view on the issue. The Waystone Project being in jeopardy is brought up by her before considering the consequences of the Everchosen-ship, as a possible consequence of the certain loss of standing and trust that this revelation will bring.

And I think she'd have a far better grasp of the situation than either of us.
 
The thing is, she hasn't. She didn't tell the Colleges loads of things, from some things about the dwarves, possession by Mork, to the Liber Mortis, to the ring note.

Mathilde has a consistent history of knowing when to keep her mouth shut. This is one of those times.

This isn't about painful or embarrassing, this is about literally doing Chaos' work for them by undermining people's justified faith in her for nothing.

She told Belegar about the possession by Mork, despite all the problems that could cause, back when she knew him a lot less.

She told Ranald about the possibility of using AV to fingerprint gods, even though it cut off a promising line of research.

She told Helga about the debt and chose to pay it back in full even though it left her with very little money.

She told Belegar again about the Waystone knowledge she got up north knowing it could further exacerbate a divide in the Karaz Ankor.

And back near the beginning, she told Abelhelm about accidentally knocking someone out with a magic dart.

Mathilde is a weirdly honest person for her wind, profession, and god- and it usually works out for her.

(Only just got the chance to respond to this. Probably won't be making any further responses, because this argument mostly seems to have degraded into people just saying the same things over and over again with increasing frustration.)
 
People voting for increased scrutiny as if we dont have von carstein nagash lore and liber mortis. You think the fuzz will ask us for copy of our library instead of covertly searching our stuff? Mathilde could burn for owning either. She is not squeaky clean enough to admit attracting lord of change.

A covert search of Belegar's treasury? That is an excellent way for a Grey Wizard to die, but their name is not Mathilde. For that matter does anyone not-a-dwarf know we keep things down there to begin with? They would have to do a blind search of a dwarf king's treasury to find that stuff. I am worried about a lot of things but not that.
 
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