Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
AzrielIlluminare
Mothman Cultist
- Pronouns
- They/Them
But what if they do? All I'm seeing is a bunch of 'There could be negative consequences for telling them' but what if telling them has possible positives as well? If not telling them is worse somehow?
So, lets say you're right we tell people and everyone just seemingly dismisses us and everything we've done as a Tzeentchian plot and they try to murder us. You realize how paranoid that sounds right?
Maybe don't treat the characters POV as WOG? "Sometimes people make mistakes, even smart people" that also applies to Mathilde herself, she isn't all-knowing, just because she thinks something doesn't mean it's true.
- Location
- Brazil
And this here is the problem. We do not need to be in league with chaos for chaos to fuck people through us.
Which makes the entire thing a bigger issue, as it is not enough to daemon check her. Because it's incredibly hard to discern if the insight which lead to this was natural or tainted, as she clearly has the attention of insanely powerful daemons.
I mean there literally is demon bullshit, not chaos bullshit, but this is a bound warp critter what we re going to claim we bound on accident. No suspicion of sorcery in the daemon smithing no sir.
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
By 'get away with the lie', in this context I mean something more along the lines of 'play it cool and don't show that we're spooked'. It's a roll I'd expect Mathilde to easily pass normally (i.e. not actually need a roll), but an encounter with a GD is the exact sort of thing that throws people off their game. And if we roll a natural 1, maybe we're thrown enough to attract attention, have concerned friends asking why we're acting odd, then have to actively lie and conceal, etc. And then there's the potential for other stuff down the line- some of the scenarios I outlined, plus others, for potentially multiple rolls.
Is this all speculative? Yes, it is. But I don't feel it's baseless speculation; even if we do skip the immediate 'reaction' rolls by saying nothing, that doesn't mean there's no other scenarios in which we might have to roll as a result of this.
- Location
- united states
The best thing to do is to ignore it, there's no point in hearing anything it says, even if it only told you truths, it's still better to ignore it.
This thing has millennia of experience in manipulation that we aren't going to outsmart, the best way to win is not to play.
[X] [BELEGAR] Nothing
[X] [COLLEGE] Nothing
This thing has millennia of experience in manipulation that we aren't going to outsmart, the best way to win is not to play.
[X] [BELEGAR] Nothing
[X] [COLLEGE] Nothing
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Why would we have to play it cool? If we vote to say anything we may not see Algard for years, I think that is long enough to develop a poker face unless the argument is that we will be spending those years thinking about nothing else like a guilty toddler.
Please do not accuse me of lying, I find it deeply insulting. I am not trying to minimise anything, "deliberately" or otherwise. This whole thing is clearly a big deal, especially since we're spending a minimum of three updates on this single diceroll and its consequences. It would be foolish of me to assume or claim otherwise.
But I do feel that some people have wildly blown these consequences out of proportion, with some suggesting we act like it never happened or try to bury it, and even a few people who now believe the quest is over because they believe what has happened is unrecoverable.
I do not believe those things. I believe that the Grey College will treat what we say with care and respect, and that we will do more good—both for the Empire and for ourselves—if we share this experience than if we hide it and allow the demon's mockery of our relationships to isolate us from those we should be trusting the most.
And maybe our reputation will take a hit in the short term, and the next time we cast magic those around us will look on suspiciously. But we are of the Grey College, the most and least trusted of the Orders, and respect and suspicion will always be an uphill battle for Mathilde. Nothing has changed here, and I'd rather we take a step into a world where we can share our burdens with our friends, than one where we keep secrets from them in fear of their reactions.
Having gone through a decent amount of the thread I ultimately agree that the best move here seems to not be going around telling people. Reasons for that include:
Standard Grey information security.
Loss of trust and possible loss of projects.
Stasis is the anti-thesis of Change so probably a good counter.
That said, Mathilde is shrewd and she's not going to tell people in a stupid way. There's been a number of clever ways mentioned that Mathilde could put the situation that makes her come out not too bad (probably).
Having gone over the Lord of Change's intervention again it really just seems like the equivalent of an opportunistic shit post. It seems like it could be problematic at first glance but taking a second look seems to indicate there's a lot less substance than you might expect.
Standard Grey information security.
Loss of trust and possible loss of projects.
Stasis is the anti-thesis of Change so probably a good counter.
That said, Mathilde is shrewd and she's not going to tell people in a stupid way. There's been a number of clever ways mentioned that Mathilde could put the situation that makes her come out not too bad (probably).
Having gone over the Lord of Change's intervention again it really just seems like the equivalent of an opportunistic shit post. It seems like it could be problematic at first glance but taking a second look seems to indicate there's a lot less substance than you might expect.
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Sir_Travelsalot
Never wakes up tired.
- Location
- At Home
[X] [BELEGAR] Daemon and weakening
[X] [COLLEGE] Everchosen and Greater Daemon
[X] [COLLEGE] Everchosen and Greater Daemon
- Location
- England, unfortunately.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Hey you know what's a real good way to alienate someone from their support structures?
Reveal they've been actively hiding something incredibly crucial for several years, thus proving that they do in fact have the capability to lie to your face about things, thus making you ask the question "If you hid this, are there other things you're hiding from us?"
Telling outright, whilst still meaning we might have eyes on us, at least proves that we aren't going to hide something such as this. And in the event that actually, the grey college doesn't blow it's top over this and deals with it reasonably, then any further attempts are expected and able to be prepared for as much as possible.
We did not write that note to Thorgirm by comparing his beard to a goblin's backside either and he still told us to die well. I think it is reasonable to expect everything Mathilde pondered to at least be on the table, she knows these people and institutions and she knows herself and her skills as well.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
This makes no sense. You say that it isn't a knock against Boney at all, yet proceed to say things that seem presented in a way as if to criticise Boney's handling of the situation while trying to dodge the fact that you're complaining things happened the way they did.
You're free to leave because the current developments make you upset. I did so once during the romance votes thanks to the vitriol in the thread and feeling unsafe. But your underlying assumptions are based on dooming and prophesising a horrible endpoint because you don't agree with the rest of the thread's viewpoints on the situation. Attributing the Daemon's words to "leaning on the fourth wall" is incredibly reductive of Boney's efforts to harmonise the quest's elements with the narrative perspectives of characters that live within it.
Boney isn't some machiavellan schemer like Iago from Othello. He isn't pre-scient and capable of manipulating the thread into a preordained path. The implication that Boney is railroading us is by far the most irritating thing in your post, and I wouldn't be making this post if I didn't feel like Boney's work was being misrepresented.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
It's not personal, it's that it's even the appearance of that kind of stuff is a hot button topic to me, because I've seen lots of games either die or jump the shark after something like this happens, and many of them were ones I previously adored.
So I'm stepping out for a while and hoping I'm wrong so I can come back to happier times, rather than letting myself build more and more dread over the topic.
The other thing is that there seem to be no upsides to escalating this to the Grey College by telling them about the daemon.
As far as I can tell, there's nothing they can do to help. Literally all this does is make them trust Mathilde less, and that's it. That's the only action they can take.
Mathilde has never given any sign that she finds keeping secrets psychologically problematic. Both by Ulgu metaphysically induced nature and nurture doing so is routine for her. This will just be yet another thing she doesn't think about, it's a routine part of her life.
What are people trying to accomplish by involving the Grey College with the daemon?
As far as I can tell, there's nothing they can do to help. Literally all this does is make them trust Mathilde less, and that's it. That's the only action they can take.
Mathilde has never given any sign that she finds keeping secrets psychologically problematic. Both by Ulgu metaphysically induced nature and nurture doing so is routine for her. This will just be yet another thing she doesn't think about, it's a routine part of her life.
What are people trying to accomplish by involving the Grey College with the daemon?
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
I probably should have clarified that by 'play it cool' I didn't mean playing it cool to Belegar/Algard, but to anybody who sees Mathilde and knows how she normally is (Pan, Max and Johann, etc); my bad. But anyway, what I meant was that if you have a harrowing, scary experience (even if it wasn't big enough to be traumatic), it often shows in your reactions and how you act in the immediate aftermath. How long that lasts depends on the experience and the person, but there are usually signs. And having a close encounter with a GD while your soul is flensed bare of winds, and it handing you a power boost? It's exactly the sort of thing that could qualify.
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- Location
- Romania
[X] [BELEGAR] Daemon and weakening
[X] [COLLEGE] Everchosen, Daemon, and Mathilde's candidacy
[X] [COLLEGE] Everchosen, Daemon, and Mathilde's candidacy
Sure, but there is no way they could suspect what happened, they would be worried not suspicious and that worry would fade in time as we cuddled wolf and got better. Hell Panoramia even knows we are a Grey, we can just tell her that something happened we cannot talk about I fully expect her to understand because she has her secrets as well (without working for the Empire's secret police).
But the daemon or its words aren't incredibly crucial unless we choose to make them so. They just the blatherings of a daemon of the Chaos God of Lies until we chose to belief they have some validity.
And, once again, it's pretty much literally impossible to reveal that this happened. Even Mathilde would find it impossible to prove to someone else that it did given that the daemon downloaded the words into her brain. The only way someone would know it happened is if the daemon or Mathilde told them, and no one we care about will believe the daemon.
I hate to say this but it's a 60 vote difference and the arguments are getting circular. I think the best we can do now is bow out and hope we are wrong or the rolls are merciful.
Having caught up a bit...
Yes, Mathilde would go on a list of "targeted by the Plotter", which she's probably on already, but it would be listed as "confirmed", rather than "presumed". However, Algard and the others who monitor that list would also put a tick up on the "can be trusted to report suspicious contact" list, increasing the level of trust on another level.
To go to my premises:
-Mathilde is a very hard target as far as Chaos corruption is concerned. She has love, she has friends, she has job fulfillment, her ambitions are reasonably likely to be achieved by her own resources. There's a reason that Birdboi used the Everchosen gambit - it's one of the few things big enough that it might appeal to her ambitions... and still basically failed.
-The event of "experiment went wrong, birdboi showed up and talked at Mathilde" is not a null event. There is some information that can be taken from it, with a high probability of being correct, even if everything that Birdboi said was false/perfectly unreliable (which I do not believe to be the case). Specifically, one item that is likely to be true is that Mathilde now can be confirmed to have Tzeentch's attention, rather than just presumed. The hints about the Everchosen Royal Rumble coming soon are dubious, but can be put on the pile of other dubious hints the Grey College has been amassing, for the Dubious Hint Team to analyze.
-Mathilde has built up a level of trust with Belegar and the Grey College that telling them "hey, a Lord of Change is apparently interested in me, we may need to take some precautions" will be less damaging to their trust in her than it showing up later and monologuing about "You don't trust your friends/colleagues to work with you after my earlier visit", or something similar. Because one of the things most likely to make Mathilde more vulnerable to the blandishments of Chaos is losing her friends.
-I trust Boney to write Mathilde as smart enough that she wouldn't say "a Lord of Change babbled at me, you should trust me less", but rather "a Lord of Change is showing interest in me, we need to take precautions in case it tries something actually sneaky."
Here's the thing. Trust is not a binary. Or even a 1-value scalar.
Yes, Mathilde would go on a list of "targeted by the Plotter", which she's probably on already, but it would be listed as "confirmed", rather than "presumed". However, Algard and the others who monitor that list would also put a tick up on the "can be trusted to report suspicious contact" list, increasing the level of trust on another level.
To go to my premises:
-Mathilde is a very hard target as far as Chaos corruption is concerned. She has love, she has friends, she has job fulfillment, her ambitions are reasonably likely to be achieved by her own resources. There's a reason that Birdboi used the Everchosen gambit - it's one of the few things big enough that it might appeal to her ambitions... and still basically failed.
-The event of "experiment went wrong, birdboi showed up and talked at Mathilde" is not a null event. There is some information that can be taken from it, with a high probability of being correct, even if everything that Birdboi said was false/perfectly unreliable (which I do not believe to be the case). Specifically, one item that is likely to be true is that Mathilde now can be confirmed to have Tzeentch's attention, rather than just presumed. The hints about the Everchosen Royal Rumble coming soon are dubious, but can be put on the pile of other dubious hints the Grey College has been amassing, for the Dubious Hint Team to analyze.
-Mathilde has built up a level of trust with Belegar and the Grey College that telling them "hey, a Lord of Change is apparently interested in me, we may need to take some precautions" will be less damaging to their trust in her than it showing up later and monologuing about "You don't trust your friends/colleagues to work with you after my earlier visit", or something similar. Because one of the things most likely to make Mathilde more vulnerable to the blandishments of Chaos is losing her friends.
-I trust Boney to write Mathilde as smart enough that she wouldn't say "a Lord of Change babbled at me, you should trust me less", but rather "a Lord of Change is showing interest in me, we need to take precautions in case it tries something actually sneaky."
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
Yes, she'd be worried and concerned- which honestly, is in its own way worse. Hiding secrets from someone who's trying to comfort and help you about those secrets is painful.
More on point, though, remember that we are in the middle of the Karak, having just been up at our tower; we weren't off on some secret mission, we were doing research, so there's a very short list of things that could have happened without warning that would both leave us spooked and unwilling to talk. I wouldn't expect any sort of reaction along the lines of 'tell me or we're through' or 'she must have been researching black magic' or anything ridiculous like that, but Pan being hurt and/or potentially suspicious? If we're taking speculation this far, I could see it.
Regardless, this has gotten waaaaaay off the original point, which is that bad luck and bad rolls could screw us over no matter which option we pick. The potential is more obvious when it comes to telling people, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist for staying silent.
For what it's worth I think the disconnect between telling the truth and not is that we have all had the experience of lying to someone and losing trust. It is a thing everyone learns as children and the reason why honesty is a universal value is just as clear. By contrast being a super spy wizard in war against trans-dimensional eldritch abominations is not something we have experienced so the default action is to trust your friends, to hope and expect that trust will be rewarded. 'If we do not lie by omission we will be distrusted for telling on ourselves' is a deeply alien thought to most people.
Not trying to convince anyone at this point, just a thought I had and figured would be worth sharing in the interest of potential greater in thread understanding.
Not trying to convince anyone at this point, just a thought I had and figured would be worth sharing in the interest of potential greater in thread understanding.