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"You can't trust the people you care about, because they are raging fanatics who would condemn you for something that is out of your control, just like your parents did."

So fuck that noise, I am absolutely trusting Belegar and Algard, and I want to seek out their advice and wisdom on this scenario, as well as inform them of what we learned.

Nowhere does it say they are raging fanatics. It says that they won't trust her as much if they tell her. That's because the only reason to tell them is in order to warn them not to trust her as much. If not, then she wouldn't be telling them.

That's the whole point of telling them.

If they didn't need to know, Mathilde wouldn't tell them. The only reason they would need to know is if they need to take action based on that knowledge. Then trusting her less would be that action that Mathilde is telling them they need to take.

Them not trusting her as much afterwards isn't a failure on their part or a negative side effect. It's basically the intended and known outcome of the action. The only thing that's in question is whether or not Mathilde can ever recover from that loss of trust.
 
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Luckily, we haven't kept it a complete secret: Thorek, one of the most respected runelords in all the Karaz Ankor, has known about it for years and his apprentices have been using it ever since with no ill effects that we know of. His word that the Vitae existed long before we met the Daemon would count for a lot.
If there is one thing Tzeentch can do, is pull a long plot.

This is the logic Algard operates under:
You catch it, and frown as the crystal orb glows with a shocking amount of Hysh, a tendril of pure light extruding to wave lazily through the air. "What in the-" you grimace as the Ulgu inside you rebels at so much Light magic in close proximity, and there's a crashing flutter as one of Algard's paperwork dimensions collapses. "Seriously? Did you seriously just daemon-check me?"

"If any of your underlings drop three different flavours of extremely convenient and extremely unlikely insight on you in a row, I'd be very disappointed if you didn't do the same." The orb subsides, the energy tendril retracting back into its depths. "What are your sources with this one? Sudden flashes of inspiration in your dreams? Whispers on the wind? A conveniently insightful underling that appeared out of nowhere?"

The big takeaway here is that Mathilde herself doesn't need to be corrupted for this to work.

A flash of insight, whispers on the wind, a spell that just so happens to be "succesfully wrestled", a mirror box that catches the Asp at an impossibly unlikely timing...

It's called "a seed of doubt" for good reason. It will be planted.

And the worst part is, we will do the hard work in that daemon's stead. Because it doesn't have the trustworthiness to seriously put ideas like that in people's head, not after our track record... but we certainly do.

That's the whole point. At the end of the day, the daemon, powerful and knowledgeable as it is, could only talk. We are giving its words power.

Throwing the Everchosen knowledge on the pile of "suspicious hints" is an afterthought. Making it more suspicious by telling it's from a daemon of Tzeentch makes it hold even less weight.
 
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Anyway.

I'm out, maybe just for a bit, maybe forever. This isn't a knock against Boney at all, I appreciate that he's sticking to his guns and making a bad roll suck, but once in-game entities start using Out of Character manipulation on the playerbase specifically to elicit reaction when they should be ignoring them, in a playerbase of this size, there's no longer any doubt as to where the plot will go. Which is to say "Exactly where that entity wanted it to". That's what happens when the Fourth Wall starts getting leaned on. I'm not upset given that it's not exactly being subtle about it, or pretending like it isn't happening, but that doesn't make things any less pre-ordained.

Hopefully I'm wrong and trusting other people isn't going to play into the Plan. But I don't think I am. "Mathilde Died in a magical accident when her precautions were overcome by an OCP, BAD END" is sad, but probably better than watching her get railroaded into either being executed or corrupted because a Daemon scared her with words that are meaningless in universe but trigger the playerbase hard and cause them to overcorrect.
 
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But telling people about it is what will make Mathilde more isolated, as they won't trust her as much.

After keeping the Mork possession, the Liver Mortis, and a pile of other things secret from the Colleges, keeping one more secret on top of the pile isn't going to accomplish much. Keeping secrets is literally part of Mathilde's soul, between her god and her wind.
Self-isolation. Where it's not others trusting Mathilde less, but Mathilde trusting others less and subsequently distancing herself from them. And yes, Mathilde is used to keeping secrets, and has kept some big ones- but how many does the demon know about? Its speech implies not all, and certainly not all the ones where Mathilde is keeping the secret for her own personal benefit (as opposed to the colleges', Belegar's, etc,). That means it very much could be aiming for a 'tell nobody' outcome, because keeping secrets for others' sakes is a different kind of wearing on a person that keeping them to protect yourself.
 
Anyway.

I'm out, maybe just for a bit, maybe forever. This isn't a knock against Boney at all, I appreciate that he's sticking to his guns and making a bad roll suck, but once in-game entities start using Out of Character manipulation on the playerbase specifically to elicit reaction when they should be ignoring them, in a playerbase of this size, there's no longer any doubt as to where the plot will go.

Hopefully I'm wrong and trusting other people isn't going to play into the Plan. But I don't think I am. "Mathilde Died in a magical accident when her precautions were overcome by an OCP, BAD END" is sad, but probably better than watching her get railroaded into either being executed or corrupted because a Daemon scared her with words that are meaningless in universe but trigger the playerbase hard and cause them to overcorrect.
sad to see you go always appreciated your commentary
 
Telling the colleges about the demon means they are going to reject the new orbs of sorcery.

Do you want the colleges to use the new orbs? Don't tell them about the demon. Simply causing the colleges to reject a powerful new weapon is a win for the demon.

[X] [BELEGAR] Nothing
[X] [COLLEGE] Incoming Everchosen
[X] [BELEGAR] Greater Daemon
[X] [COLLEGE] Nothing

But telling the Grey College has some actual potential upsides as well (mostly a combination of making it harder for Tzeentch to cast aspersions at us, and maybe getting some good advice on dealing with people triggering our paranoia intentionally).

Not really. It's going to be easier for tzeetsch to cast aspirations at is if we've already admitted to the first conversation- it makes a second one more likely and believable. And we've already had the courses on dealing with paranoia.

I want to have as few secrets that could come back to bite us as possible

Bit late for that. Von Carstein Ring and Liber Mortis say hi.

It can be used. That doesn't explain why the daemon told us though? How does it advance this particularly greater daemon's agenda for the Empire to use this information in this way?

The demon told us to weaken the empire. Telling others, so they feel compelled to treat Mathilde and the things which she covers up with as possibly tainted weakens the empire.

That doesn't seem like a realistic consequence of informing people that we had a miscast.

I think you are deliberately minimizing what happened and then acting surprised that people think consequences are possible.

Telling people that we had an encounter with a greater demon of sorcery right before we reveal new orbs of sorcery and Waystone is going to get those things tagged as "probably came from tzeetsch". At very least.

In both cases, the worst that can reasonably happen is people being dissappointed in Mathilde,

Lol. No.
 
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Thanks. Although I think I miggt change at some point anyway.
an argument that hangs on everyone being supportive and not suspicious,
Remember, that Algarad was pretty mich expecting is to attract the bird's attention at some point. To me this strongly implies that supportiveness is moe likely.
Tzeentch loves trust. After all, without trust, there could be no lies, and precious little hope.
OK. Now this I would like to see substantiated. On what evidence are you basing the idea that trust empoowers Tzeentch?
OK then but in that case why tell us something that is actually true and whose dissemination could in your view harm the plans of Tzeench? Why not claim that Tzeench broke into the realm of Mor to steal away Van Hall's soul for eternal torment and it is now bound into the Scepter of Zerek the Betrayer in this Chaos wastes fortress. There are lies the demon could have told to fuck with her head that work better than the truth which we know OOC
Perhaps because the bird doesn't know about our feelings for Abel? It is neither omnicient nor omnipotent.
 
Self-isolation. Where it's not others trusting Mathilde less, but Mathilde trusting others less and subsequently distancing herself from them. And yes, Mathilde is used to keeping secrets, and has kept some big ones- but how many does the demon know about? Its speech implies not all, and certainly not all the ones where Mathilde is keeping the secret for her own personal benefit (as opposed to the colleges', Belegar's, etc,). That means it very much could be aiming for a 'tell nobody' outcome, because keeping secrets for others' sakes is a different kind of wearing on a person that keeping them to protect yourself.

Mathilde didn't self-isolate after keeping any of her other secrets, and both possession by a hostile god and posession of the Liber Mortis are much bigger deal.

Now, as you say, the daemon may not know about those, and so not realise that keeping a secret like this is just part of Mathilde's normal routine so won't be a problem at all. That sucks for the demon, but is great for Mathilde, who can say nothing and just go about her day while the daemon fumes impotently in the Aethyr with its hopes to mentally unbalance her dashed.

OK. Now this I would like to see substantiated. On what evidence are you basing the idea that trust empoowers Tzeentch?

Treachery and lies literally cannot exist without trust. Tzeentch is very dependent on the existence of trust. It's like how Nurgle depends on the existence of life.
 
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Remember, that Algarad was pretty mich expecting is to attract the bird's attention at some point. To me this strongly implies that supportiveness is moe likely.

Mathilde knows Algard well, and literally tells us in the last update that this will mean he trusts her less and that this loss of trust may be impossible to recover from.

The way the Grey College seems to work, if this wasn't a problem, Mathilde wouldn't be telling Algard anyway. The mere fact that she is means that Algard has to take it seriously as this is Mathilde coming to him and telling him that she's now an issue. The problem is that he does trust her, so when she self-reports, he'll take that seriously and be more sceptical of what she does in future, given that she's warned him that he needs to be on guard against her in future.

You don't go to Algard because you need a hug. You go to him because their a major threat to/opportunity for the Empire that's too big for you to handle alone.

In this case, the threat Mathilde would be telling him about is her.
 
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Self-isolation. Where it's not others trusting Mathilde less, but Mathilde trusting others less and subsequently distancing herself from them. And yes, Mathilde is used to keeping secrets, and has kept some big ones- but how many does the demon know about? Its speech implies not all, and certainly not all the ones where Mathilde is keeping the secret for her own personal benefit (as opposed to the colleges', Belegar's, etc,). That means it very much could be aiming for a 'tell nobody' outcome, because keeping secrets for others' sakes is a different kind of wearing on a person that keeping them to protect yourself.

But what if others actually don't trust us. I mean you would not think Thorgrim would answer 'die well' to a request for aid and then he rolled a 2 and in universe he became the person who would do that. Low rolls do happen so maybe don't just plan for the median odds of how people will react, especially when Mathilde actually brought up in character what the worst case scenario might be
 
Are they? How do you know with such absolute certainty?

Because following "a greater demon of sorcery talked to me" with "and here is a new extremely powerful piece of magic that was thought impossible for humans to do" is the sort of thing that is OBVIOUSLY a demonic plot. And you don't use the tools a demon gave you.

Feel free to tell me why the coleges would be idiots though.
 
But what if others actually don't trust us. I mean you would not think Thorgrim would answer 'die well' to a request for aid and then he rolled a 2 and in universe he became the person who would do that. Low rolls do happen so maybe don't just plan for the median odds of how people will react, especially when Mathilde actually brought up in character what the worst case scenario might be

Note she didn't just bring up the worst case scenario. She treated it as automatic and certain that she'd be trusted less as a result of telling this. The only thing in doubt was whether she'd ever make that loss of trust back.
 
Are they? How do you know with such absolute certainty?
Won't they? How do you know with such absolute certainty?

You don't, and neither does Glau.

But what we do know is that extremely novel and useful insights are treated with a measure of wariness by default. Dropping two massive bombs, maybe three if you count the Waystones, means that our story better be absolutely fucking airtight.

It's a very reasonable conclusion that "I replicated two feats thought to be impossible by a human" is going to be looked at very closely. Name-dropping a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch in the middle of it does absolutely nothing but hinder us.

It's not a question of "will we be trusted less?". It's a question of "how much?".
 
While I won't change my vote to it (there's very little to gain from it), I want to think that reporting Mathilde's candidacy would be met more with 'really? weird. we will keep an eye on you' rather than 'ok do we kill her?'.

This... I mean, it feels like the Grey Order would cotton on fairly quickly to how immediately jumping to that, when she has of he own will reported it, would be a great way to sour Mathilde on the Colleges. Like, that's how the song and dance goes normally. You go and tell your superiors and your superiors freak out and try to kill you, and you are sad and feel betrayed about it and run away and then maybe you end up an Everchosen anyway. The Grey College is smarter than that.

Are they really? I mean presumably if they are decide to kill us they are not planning to fail. The reasons why they might anyway basically fall under bad luck or things they would not anticipate like Kragg's belt. Maybe don't dismiss Mathilde's judgement out of hand just becuase it does not make one feel good. Sometimes people make mistakes, even smart people.
 
Mathilde didn't self-isolate after keeping any of her other secrets, and both possession by a hostile god and posession of the Liber Mortis are much bigger deal.

Now, as you say, the daemon may not know about those, and so not realise that keeping a secret like this is just part of Mathilde's normal routine so won't be a problem at all. That sucks for the demon, but is great for Mathilde, who can say nothing and just go about her day while the daemon fumes impotently in the Aethyr with its hopes to mentally unbalance her dashed.
While that's true(-ish) for this possible plan (there's a whole thing about different types of secret and guilt I could go into here), it's not necessarily true for other 'say nothing' plans. Another example might be it wants to feed Mathilde's guilt about not saying anything when another Everchosen does appear in the immediate future, or it could be hoping to show up against while Mathilde has company and say or do something that makes Mathilde react in a way that gives away their prior meeting. Hell, going full speculation, maybe the 'Fated' trait makes us glow with purple fire when it's in play, and all it needs to do is sit back and wait for us to inflict some very inconvenient questions upon outself.

Regardless, my point with the reply I made to the post by DP was that 'doing nothing' could actually be the response that the demon wants. It's not a silver bullet, because we don't know what the thing is actually aiming to get out of this.

Also, as an aside, please don't reply to this post. As politely as possible, you have a tendency to jump on literally everything that could be even slightly inconsistent with your point of view, and throw every argument you can think of at the wall to see what sticks and... well, frankly, it's exhausting to read or be the subject of. This isn't me saying 'stop posting' or anything like that- you have a right to share your opinion and try to persuade others. Just please, for the duration of this vote, stop replying to me personally.
But what if others actually don't trust us. I mean you would not think Thorgrim would answer 'die well' to a request for aid and then he rolled a 2 and in universe he became the person who would do that. Low rolls do happen so maybe don't just plan for the median odds of how people will react, especially when Mathilde actually brought up in character what the worst case scenario might be
If we're talking about a bad roll, then not telling people could be equally as vulnerable. Maybe we get a roll for getting away with lying, or down the road the demon pops up and says something suspicious in front of us and witnesses and we have to roll for poker face, or Kragg gets a roll to notice the wrinkle in reality during his maintenance of the Eye or something. Luck plays a roll, it's true, but it cuts both ways.
 
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If we're talking about a bad roll, then not telling people could be equally as vulnerable. Maybe we get a roll for getting away with lying, or down the road the demon pops up and says something suspicious in front of us and witnesses and we have to roll for poker face, or Kragg gets a roll to notice the wrinkle during his maintenance of the Eye or something. Luck plays a roll, it's true, but it cuts both ways.

No, because the odds of those rolls happening are still a thing that is decided by what makes sense in universe. If we vote to talk a roll for reactions will happen next update, no mitigating, no chance to take actions to clear our name or head it off at the pass, just 'roll me that D100 and see what happens'. If we do the other way are not going to get a roll to get away with the lie, because we will not be telling a lie, just keeping silence. Note the distinct lack of rolls to keep the Liber Mortis secret.

My point was a counter to 'the people we know are nice people who trust us'. Stripping away the OOC stuff 'even the most suspicious version of them?'
 
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If there is one thing Tzeentch can do, is pull a long plot.

While he can certainly do that, you aren't counting the one being that completely knows Mathilde's soul and is also a known opposer of Chaos. That Matty was greatly and evidently favored by Ranald by the time of the Expedition to Vlag and Dum is a matter of public knowledge, at least among the Karaz Ankor, so I'm 99% sure that Algard knows about it. And if Mathilde had been in league with Chaos when she told Kragg and Thorek about the Vitae, which was well before that, then Ranald sure as hell wouldn't have given her any blessing, much less to the degree demonstrated in Vlag.
 
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Are they really? I mean presumably if they are decide to kill us they are not planning to fail. The reasons why they might anyway basically fall under bad luck or things they would not anticipate like Kragg's belt. Maybe don't dismiss Mathilde's judgement out of hand just becuase it does not make one feel good. Sometimes people make mistakes, even smart people.
I did say "I want to think" rather than "I'm sure that", and that I won't change my vote over it. Overall, even that risk is too much for not that muc in the way of actionable info. I have a vested interest in Mathilde staying alive.
 
Because following "a greater demon of sorcery talked to me" with "and here is a new extremely powerful piece of magic that was thought impossible for humans to do" is the sort of thing that is OBVIOUSLY a demonic plot. And you don't use the tools a demon gave you.

Feel free to tell me why the coleges would be idiots though.
And Grey colledge is known for just following the OBVIOUS path without going into details and investigating other possibilities and data. Oh wait. No, they are not. They will look into our research double check everything and then make decision. Is it more likely that they reject it if we tell? Not arguing that. But saying that telling= immidiate rejection of the research 100% no doubts is dramatic oversimplification at best and blatant fearmongering at worst.
Won't they? How do you know with such absolute certainty?

You don't, and neither does Glau.

But what we do know is that extremely novel and useful insights are treated with a measure of wariness by default. Dropping two massive bombs, maybe three if you count the Waystones, means that our story better be absolutely fucking airtight.

It's a very reasonable conclusion that "I replicated two feats thought to be impossible by a human" is going to be looked at very closely. Name-dropping a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch in the middle of it does absolutely nothing but hinder us.

It's not a question of "will we be trusted less?". It's a question of "how much?".
You are right. I don't know that. I in fact agree with your point that name dropping a demon would lead to the colledges looking closer into our research. What I disagree with is a absolute statement of "telling= immidiate rejection of the research 100% no doubts"
 
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Because following "a greater demon of sorcery talked to me" with "and here is a new extremely powerful piece of magic that was thought impossible for humans to do" is the sort of thing that is OBVIOUSLY a demonic plot. And you don't use the tools a demon gave you.

Feel free to tell me why the coleges would be idiots though.
Because the logic of this sort of absolutism would mean that literally no one should be a Wizard, ever. After all, magic is verifiably from the Realm of Chaos. Tzeentch is very much recognized as being the God of Magic. Every single scrap of magic in the world could be (and in the not-so-distant past, was) labeled as tools given by Daemons.

The entire existence of the Colleges is predicated on the notion that it's better to not let the Great Enemy be the only ones with access to the tool. The Orbs of Sorcery are pure embodiments of their Wind, and the principles of their function are perfectly understood by the Colleges. The only difficulty is in making them. And if the Colleges are that mega-sus after hearing that a Lord of Change dropped in on a mistake in the process to spin cryptic bullshit to play mind games with us (something that they are known to do), they could just, y'know, watch us perform the process successfully and see for themselves there's no daemonic bullshit involved in the production.
 
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I hate the idea that we would be inflicting irreparable mental harm upon poor fragile Belegar if we did our due diligence and informed him about relevant security concerns inside his Karak. He is a Dwarven King, he wants and needs to know things because without knowing those things he cannot make his Big Decisions accurately. He wouldn't be worthy of being a King if he didn't want that, or if he failed so utterly in his duties that his subordinates decide that he is too fragile to do it properly and they might as well heroically rescue him from his burdens.

It isn't going to be that big of a deal. Honestly if there was one bit of Mathilde's theorizing that I thought was a serious stretch, it was that the Dwarves would distance themselves from us enough that it would interfere with the Waystone project.

[x] [BELEGAR] Daemon and weakening
 
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