Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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They could do that if the daemon had never showed up. They could make an infinite range of allegedly compromising things up. It makes no difference whether it actually happened or not.
Being based on an actual event makes no difference.
And of course all those seers are the reason why the Empire has never been caught with its pants down when the everchosen showed up... right?
I do not think adding one more demon's whispering to the pot can have any meaningful impact especially as chaos controls when the even takes place. If Chaos thinks we look too prepared they can just... wait. Send the champion the long way to get his horse.
Romv
A Memory of TREES
Dhar occurs when different Winds are forced too close together, so as long as you only use the Wind your soul is turning into, you won't get Dhar.
All that's true, but the daemons words do nothing to either corroborate or contradict those other sources. The words of a daemon are literally meaningless here. Those other sources of information are either convincing, or they're not, the daemon's words don't change anything.
Mathilde's room is sealed against external magic. They can't have observed it like that. And if a Chaos God is feeding them visions, they could have included accurate details on what Mathilde's room looked like from the inside anyway whether or not the other events shown were true or not.
There is no difference between what a false visions or a true vision of these events would look like to anyone save Mathilde. A chaotic attempt to frame her for something that never happened would be indistinguishable from a chaotic attempt to reveal what really happened, and everyone would know that.
Without Mathilde revealing this it's pretty much literally impossible for it to be revealed
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K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
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- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
Well, there is a greater demon of Tzeentch looking directly over us. That's kind of difficult to manage alone. There is a doubt that we can do it alone.
That's just false. The update specifically confirmed that it's a data point.
Here's someone with far more imagination than me who devised a plausible scenario.
And even without that, given Tzeentch's proclivity for convoluted plans, thinking that there's zero chance that not telling people will have no consequences is very careless.
[x] [BELEGAR] Greater Daemon
[x] [COLLEGE] Everchosen and Greater Daemon
[x] [BELEGAR] Daemon and weakening
[x] [COLLEGE] Everchosen and Greater Daemon
[x] [BELEGAR] Daemon and weakening
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
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I assumed the Grey College developed those spells because they lvie in a liminal realm, and so could study it to develop magic from it.
The Grey LMs had a bunch of explanations, most of which didn't mention Ulgu. A couple linked it to various gods, a couple to magical traditions or tricks, and only Algard and the Bursar specifically said it was Ulgu based.
No? The liminal realm in Laurelorn is the Dreaming Wood, and I don't recall a link to shadows or Ulgu. The one in the Forest of Shadows was IIRC, but I'm not sure that's becuase it's a liminal realm or because it's the Forest of Shadows already.
The last time an Everchosen turned up, the Empire was in a three way civil war, and they all collectively pulled their trousers up and belted them tight because they did listen to the omens and portents sent by the gods.
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well, that touches on other parts of the empire's hierarchy that aren't so trustable, i think. like, say, any uppity nobles or sigmarites who sense an opportunity to dunk on the colleges in general, saying 'hey, these fuckin' witches are making a power grab, plain and simple! the vampire thing's just an excuse, clearly!'
but i'd like to think at least algard knows the truth about the previous empress, and the lahmian conspiracy. it's rather a big thing, you know, lahmians in the highest echelons of power and able to ensnare members of the grey college. i feel like this is something the college's higher ups would be alerted to.
maybe i'm wrong on this, though. it's been a long time since i've read the earlier parts of the quest. still, i feel like this issue's something we can trust the college, or at least algard on.
So? Th fact that a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch is watching Mathilde isn't something that anyone else can help her with. There's literally nothing they can do beyond trust her or what she produces less. They can't help her manage it.
And Mathilde is fully capable of doing this alone. It's just part of the job of being a Lord Magister.
It's something that could have happened without the daemon ever having communicated with Mathilde, and would take precisely the same expenditure of effort on behalf of Tzeentch. It no more reveals that this happens than it would reveal something equally incriminating that never actually did happen. There's nothing about this event actually happening that makes it more plausible or the plot likely to work.
And if that kind of plot is a potential issue, telling people that Mathilde fears she is potentially comprised is actively counter-productive, as that makes those people more likely to believe it if Tzeentch does pull off this kind of plot in a few yeas and make up something incriminating.
In its own terms, if this is a worry we should keep quiet rather than undermine people's trust in Mathilde.
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Ah. Hm. Maybe Mathilde should check to see if her/Abelhelm's hat been secretly turned into the Crown of Domination. Just in case.
(What better test for the next Everchosen than to see if they can steal Mathilde's hat?)
The statement is useless in a vacuum, which is why I've been hammering on and on and on about how nobody would use it in a vacuum. If one Daemon says the Everchosen is coming, that's not something that can be used on its own. But if multiple different sources dedicated to different Chaos Gods indicate it, and infighting amongst Chaos Cults goes measurably up, and more and more rumours of great champions of Chaos start circulating, and the Winds from the poles start blowing harder, and the Gods start sending warnings to the faithful, then all of those data points that are useless in a vacuum can be combined into something that isn't. Unless all of them get hucked into a bin because they could possibly be Tzeentchian trickery.
If Alric still had authority and reputation and allies and resources left, that might be true. But he doesn't. What he has is Mira looking extremely closely for any opportunity to tie up that loose end. The measures to prevent him from being a risk to the Empire if he betrays it are already in place.
Winds that touch your soul go into your soul. Vitae that touches your soul does not go into your soul.
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Just to clarify, you're doubtful that the agents of the Schemer would have a way of revealing information in a way that would be damaging for Mathilde?
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
He's doubtful that this singular instance meaningfully changes anything. The cultists could fabricate whatever evidence they want, if they are so capable it doesn't need to be of a real event and it being one doesn't meaningfully make that task easier for them.
Ergo it changed nothing.
Now I'm perfectly fine with informing the colleges that an everchosen is coming, but that's sort of a bit 'Winter is coming' because it always is. I don't think it's harmful to do so.
- Location
- Sweden
[X] [BELEGAR] Daemon and weakening
[X] [COLLEGE] Everchosen, Daemon, and Mathilde's candidacy
[X] [COLLEGE] Everchosen, Daemon, and Mathilde's candidacy
- Location
- Russia
I can't speak for Alratan, but I don't see any measurable difference between "Tell complete fabrication that damages Mathilde's reputation" and "Tell truth known only to Mathilde and some daemon that damages Mathilde's reputation". In both cases there is no proof that the information is true (unless, you know, the daemon recorded our conversation on his smartphone), so if they can get us in scenario 2 they can just as easily get us in scenario 1 and the fact that our conversation happened doesn't matter unless we blab about it.
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Yes yes not on our soul, I know I know. Perhaps I shouldn't have used that as a short-hand. Whatever.
We're not marked, we're... probably whitelisted as one person put it. But we can study that; we can study the effects on a person from having their name on a list somewhere.
The effects are "better casting when Tzeentchian magic's around (and possibly worse backfires if they happen? or something?)". Which... may not be studiable without going looking for Tzeentchian minor daemons to beat up, but... Well, you also could have Mathilde using magic around certain areas or peoples, and then seeing if Mathilde's magic gets stronger; if it does get stronger, that'd give you, I dunno, some actionable intelligence.
But there's other stuff they can do. I don't know because I don't know the full resources of the Colleges or the full mechanics of how everything works. For instance, Celestial magic is kind of a great big question because I think it was said "Well a lot of their spell effects are 'reroll a die' and how does that manifest in the world?" when Boney was complaining about that in an offhand post. "What's the fluff for the Portent of Amul spells? Nobody knows, it just says it affects rolls, and not much otherwise! Hooray!"
So, okay, let's say that the answer is that our name is on a whitelist somewhere. How does it identify us? Via "Aethyric Signature"? If so, how? Did the Daemons get a good look at our soul? Or at our magics? If it identifies us based on """Aethyric Signature""" or Magic Pixie Dust, can we come up with a spell to hide or distort the identification of our soul by this thing? Or can we use ourselves as a sympathetic link to figure out where tf the whitelist is? Or where similarly whitelisted people are?
The word "Fated" to me has certain implications. Of, well, causality or fate or Celestial magics. Azyr. If it's something like that, then maybe Azyr magic would be useful in understanding it. Or alternatively, maybe the Celestial College would get useful ideas or stuff from studying it.
Or maybe it's just "Fated" as a descriptor for "You're on Tzeentch's mind" and the word is only used because Tzeentch is associated with magic and fate, and it isn't intrinsically related to fate or Azyr per se. Weird but whatever. Still, we can try to do something with it, no?
We're not marked, we're... probably whitelisted as one person put it. But we can study that; we can study the effects on a person from having their name on a list somewhere.
The effects are "better casting when Tzeentchian magic's around (and possibly worse backfires if they happen? or something?)". Which... may not be studiable without going looking for Tzeentchian minor daemons to beat up, but... Well, you also could have Mathilde using magic around certain areas or peoples, and then seeing if Mathilde's magic gets stronger; if it does get stronger, that'd give you, I dunno, some actionable intelligence.
But there's other stuff they can do. I don't know because I don't know the full resources of the Colleges or the full mechanics of how everything works. For instance, Celestial magic is kind of a great big question because I think it was said "Well a lot of their spell effects are 'reroll a die' and how does that manifest in the world?" when Boney was complaining about that in an offhand post. "What's the fluff for the Portent of Amul spells? Nobody knows, it just says it affects rolls, and not much otherwise! Hooray!"
So, okay, let's say that the answer is that our name is on a whitelist somewhere. How does it identify us? Via "Aethyric Signature"? If so, how? Did the Daemons get a good look at our soul? Or at our magics? If it identifies us based on """Aethyric Signature""" or Magic Pixie Dust, can we come up with a spell to hide or distort the identification of our soul by this thing? Or can we use ourselves as a sympathetic link to figure out where tf the whitelist is? Or where similarly whitelisted people are?
The word "Fated" to me has certain implications. Of, well, causality or fate or Celestial magics. Azyr. If it's something like that, then maybe Azyr magic would be useful in understanding it. Or alternatively, maybe the Celestial College would get useful ideas or stuff from studying it.
Or maybe it's just "Fated" as a descriptor for "You're on Tzeentch's mind" and the word is only used because Tzeentch is associated with magic and fate, and it isn't intrinsically related to fate or Azyr per se. Weird but whatever. Still, we can try to do something with it, no?
I'm tentatively inclined to agree, but my one concern would be what if the colleges end up finding out through the grapevine, via the Dwarves anyway? I don't think that's going to happen, but it would probably be a somewhat awkward conversation explaining why we felt it necessary to inform the Dwarves and not our boss.
Regarding the college at least, telling them about the interest Tzeentch has and the encounter with the greater demon won't be particularly surprising, I think. It'll be confirmatory, and that's useful information to have, to be on the lookout for confirmed Tzeentchian interference in, for example, the Waystone Project.
This is from before we ripped Vlag out of the grasp of Chaos. It is entirely unsurprising that they might be taking a more direct interest in Mathilde's activities, from the perspective of the Grey College.
[X] [BELEGAR] Greater Daemon
[X] [COLLEGE] Everchosen and Greater Daemon
This is from before we ripped Vlag out of the grasp of Chaos. It is entirely unsurprising that they might be taking a more direct interest in Mathilde's activities, from the perspective of the Grey College.
[X] [BELEGAR] Greater Daemon
[X] [COLLEGE] Everchosen and Greater Daemon
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Those other things are useful data point that would make a case that the Everchosen is incoming.
However I'm not convinced that the word of a greater daemon of Tzeentch gives extra credibility to that. I see it like asking a magic eight ball whether it will rain tomorrow. Whatever the result, it shouldn't make me more or less likely to believe the weather forecast that it will be fine.
Now, you're the QM, so your word goes, but including biased or very unreliable information sources in an analysis because you think more data points are better tends to degrade a sample, not improve it.
I believe that it's almost impossible to reveal in a way that would be distinguishable from the agents of the Schemer having simply invented the entire episode. And if they could do that they could simply invent 'evidence' that Mathilde had done something else dubious.
Worse, revealing this and implicitly warning the College that Mathilde may be compromised might actually make such a plot to invent proof of Mathilde being corrupt more likely to succeed, as Mathilde herself would have warned her peers to be suspicious of her in future.
