Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Well yeah, minions being able to do stuff for you is one of the major selling points. I was addressing the idea of them being useful props for enhancing our intimidation, not their general utility.
Exalted mechanics continue to grate on me but that is cost of admission here.

But I will say on that point that 'Nyarlathotep with a Gestapo' is more terrifying than just Nyarlathotep. Suddenly they are more likely to notice you.
 
If we get Splintered Gale Incarnation (•••••) our clones should find the extra muscle useful. It really is a charm that synergies with having minions.
 
[X] Split the guardian party!
-[X] Those that have lived down here for a long time, help with security, keep other factions away from the Last Station
-[X] The ones who haven't spent long time in the Underground, like the girl who still remembers her table manners, return to the daylight world and serve as your helpers there
 
Don't think so. White Court make human thralls. Black court make Renfields and Red court make addicts. None of them get called ghouls.
I's a World Of Darkness thing; still-mortal Humans that get fed Vampire blood.
They gain Vampiric powers, immortality as long as they are kept fed, and an increasing obsession with the one feeding them.
So, Red Court Vamps-to-be effectively.
 
I don't know if this would be a plus or a minus... but it would probably cause Bob's fantasies to go so overclocked that the skull catches fire.
It is a great charm in many ways, but I don't think that we are going to buy a 5 dot unfavored charm any time soon. Also Splintered Gale Incarnation gets better the better our base skills are. Our clones can't lean on exalancys.
 
Speaking as someone who grew up in the area, Chicago is called the Windy City because it's full of blowhards. In conversation between those from the city invoking the title regarding the weather is vanishingly rare compared to using it to reference people. Claiming that it provides evidence of heightened exposure hazards for the homeless comes off as somewhere between ignorant and disingenuous to me; the temperature provides the primary dangers there because Chicago has one of the coldest average winter temperatures for a major US metropolitan area.
I'll take your word for it.
Not really. It just means that their knowledge atrophied to the point of being unusable. Note how only the youngest one still remembers how to use cutlery.
The youngest one is the only one that bothers to use cutlery. Many a soldier doesnt bother with cutlery either in the field.

Furthermore, people dont forget their education, not on human lifespan timescales. There's many an academic out there still involved in education while in their 70s and 80s. If you are claiming these guys have forgotten their education, you're still coming round to suggesting they are much older than humans get to be.

Well, they have stealth 4 and no obvious supernatural "tell" as it was, like fear of the sun, running / holy water, etc. Are they even inconvenienced by threshold at all? The obvious choice would be to train them as stealth / infiltration specialists capable of passing as mortals.
Point of order:
Holy water vulnerability is a thing for ghouls in the RPG.
Mentioned in Grave Peril only in the mainline books, so its possible Mr Butcher changed his mind about this later.

We have no need for stealth/infiltration specialists anyway.
Which is good, because there's a ton of other skills involved, from Streetwise and Larceny to Drive.
Just let them be security. Thats what our need is, and the least dangerous for them.

There's no way gunsmithing is more than one degree removed from our mechanics specialty for Craft, so we roll 12 dice with Excellency. Procuring guns is not a problem for us. Ammo is slightly more of a problem, unless we spend a ton of time making bullets by hand. Although we are fully capable of doing that in small batches for select missions where we need sniper overwatch.

Having Craft as a key ability and TTC as a charm really does simplify logistics that way.
Sure does.
Especially since you can order a lot of the basic components from chemical supplies and hardware stores.

Most modern guns include the powder with the bullet, so I was counting them together. Although, if our crafting abilities could turn coal into diamonds, create custom alloys for a shield, or make spectacular cooking, I really don't think that the chemistry involved in making the gunpowder is where our abilities are going to fail. And a good bit of the raw chemicals involved in the makeup of gunpowder can be found in some form in your average kitchen. And that's discounting custom gunpowder made with substitute ingredients. There's plenty of ways to make common household chemicals go boom, after all, and if we design the gun from the ground up to use our replacement powder and use advanced TTC chemistry tools beyond the reach of what your average DIY chemist can do, there shouldn't be any problems.
You can definitely make gunpowder out of household items with enough time
Good night guys, update will be in the morning.
Modern smokeless propellant is either mostly nitrocellulose for single base powders, or nitrocellulose + nitroglycerine for double base powders. Both discovered in the 19th century by chemists with homelab setups iirc, both well within the capabilities of hobbyist chemists working with hobbyist supplies, let alone an Infernal. Molly has Craft 3 Tech 2, which means she should have no trouble making it in batches.

Also unnecessary. Because unlike Illnois, Ohio state law has no regulations on the purchase of ammunition.

We can go there, buy enough ammo to outfit an army from a gunstore and drive/swim/fly back to Chicago. Or buy bulk smokeless powder and make our own rounds; a significant fraction of the firearms community handloads their own ammo. Its three hours each way to Ohio along I-90 at the speed limit, or we can swim-teleport to Toledo with Rendered Villain Dispersal.

If we want to be really exotic?

ArcFlash Labs first demonstrated a handheld coilgun in 2012/2013 and started selling it in 2021 for three kay US.
Their new version goes on sale in 2023.

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rs20-v_ebCE

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EwHRjgVWFno

The components are available off the shelf, even before improvements because Infernal Crafting.
Its a hobbyist weapon, but it's got BB gun muzzle velocity. And you can dial power levels for less lethal capability.
Also, gauss rifles arent legally firearms.

Less high tech, but also legal regardless of age or licensing, are crossbows. And available off the shelf.


But ultimately, the question isnt whether we can. Its whether we should. Security is more about visibility and intimidation than it is about being armed to the teeth. Melee range weapons are a lot harder to misuse in this scenario because you were jumpy or you lost your temper; your victim can run before you catch up, and both sides have a lot more opportunity to hesitate before escalation.


I'd suggest if we're gearing them up, its probably a lot wiser to give them protective gear and batons. Stabproof vests and/or chainmail and good boots. Just size them for gear and make them to each person's specs. The look of quality gear will deter 90% of the predators in Undertown looking for easy prey.

Serious intruders get to deal with Molly.

Or possibly Porter if he's awake; the lesser elemental dragon will presumably have an opinion about such people. Besides, with emotion manipulating vampires and illusion casting fae and spirits, no ranged weapons might well serve as a safety measure against friendly fire.
 
Furthermore, people dont forget their education, not on human lifespan timescales. There's many an academic out there still involved in education while in their 70s and 80s. If you are claiming these guys have forgotten their education, you're still coming round to suggesting they are much older than humans get to be.
As an academic involved in education, it doesn't work like that. The people you are talking about are constantly using their skills. They can have deep dementia, but they'll still be able to review scientific texts and in some cases solve math equations.

Skills and knowledge that aren't being used get forgotten relatively quickly, on the times pan of several years. That's why they test for retained knowledge in various education course certifications.

I am willing to bet that you won't be able to remember... Let's see, Menelaus's theorem if you got taught it in school and you aren't using it daily. Or residue from complex analysis. Or everything taught in geography. He'll, a number of people believe that the Sun orbits the Earth despite being taught otherwise.

Knowledge and skills atrophy very quickly, we see it all the time.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Dec 16, 2022 at 3:48 AM, finished with 132 posts and 31 votes.

  • [X] Help with security, keep other factions away from the Last Station
    [X] Spread the word, the powers that be are going to react to your message of succor soon so you need to get it out there as fast as possible
    [X] Split the guardian party!
    -[X] Those that have lived down here for a long time, help with security, keep other factions away from the Last Station
    -[X] The ones who haven't spent long time in the Underground, like the girl who still remembers her table manners, return to the daylight world and serve as your helpers there
    [X] Split the party!
    -[X] Those that have lived down here for a long time, spread the word, the powers that be are going to react to your message of succor soon so you need to get it out there as fast as possible
    -[X] The ones who haven't spent long time in the Underground, like the girl who still remembers her table manners, return to the daylight world and serve as your helpers there
    [X] Return to the daylight world and serve as your helpers there
    [X] Split the party!
 
Arc 4 Post 16: Lady of the Shadowed Halls
Lady of the Shadowed Halls

9th of August 2006 A.D.

The hiss of aerosol paint atop the peeling paint, not red but green, not a hound but a sun spiraling among waves fills the tunnel as you look over the pile of empty casseroles, pots and pans practically licked clean. The Hunger gnawing at their souls may have abated under your shadow but the Red Dogs, as you had found their names to be had still been more than willing to put away all the food you had helped make.

"You did good Molly," mom says as she is putting away the knives and forks with a clink.

"Best pot turkey chili I ever made, sadly it's also the worst one, but hey I can only go up from here," you joke. It had been a little disconcerting to just know how much seasoning or salt to use, just how long to leave the food in the brazen oven until it had roasted to a golden crust, in some ways stranger than knowing Sumerian greetings. You expect extinct languages more than perfect cooking time...

"That too." It takes you a moment to realize what she had said. You had been perfectly content to take her silence as approval, especially given the fact that you had threatened to strangle someone to death and throw them in a lake, but this is something else.

"I am not comfortable with all this, I don't think I ever will but these kids..." Who are all older than me, you think but do not interrupt. "They needed the help. What they really need is to get out of here, but that is going to take work. None of them have their IDs anymore." She glares at Adam.

The elder ghoul had not offered you any other challenge when you announced that the group would be providing security for the station in your name. If anything he seemed relieved to be given the task which makes sense given his history, that's probably something his former masters in the Red Court asked him to do... What else did they ask of him though?

"Mom I don't want to start judging them for what they did in the past. I think they have all been judged enough for that by others and by themselves." Sometimes you wished you were not as good as you are at reading the haunted looks in people's eyes.

"This kind of set up isn't good for anyone," she insists, tight-lipped. "They need a new leader and some way to overrule that leader if they are abusive."

Abruptly you remember the story dad had told you about how he met mom. She's probably speaking from experience right now, and you also need to set up a food budget, some basic camping supplies.

"The crown lines heavier on the head than in the hand that sets it there," Usum offers, almost melancholy.

How do you organize the Red Dogs?

Budget: 14,000 $

[] [Leadership] Write in

[] [Food and Ammaneties] Write in

[] [Standing orders] Write in


OOC: You guys are probably going to have more ideas than I did on this, but this is basically the vote for how do deal with other inhabitants down here, mortal and supernatural, what you want to buy them as a baseline etc, stuff you can do on the side as part of cleaning up the station.
 
But ultimately, the question isnt whether we can. Its whether we should.
The firearms speculation started with the suggestion that firearms 3 + stealth 4 meant that they could serve as sniper support in the field. It's a relatively low-risk job for our minions that takes advantage of their existing skills if we want to take them on a mission. Enemy snipers are annoying, but friendly ones are great, and there may be future scenarios where we have time to quickly set a couple minions up with rapidly hand-made rifles and ammo along with sniper nest positions.

And ninja'd by the update. Way more complicated vote than I want to deal with when I'm about to go to bed, so I'll deal with it in the morning.

And we actually got Charity's approval on this! Means we probably won't get pushback from her on expanding our minion network in the future. I love the little detail of them using a green sun as their new territory marker. Shows the change in management right away.
 
We should definitely give them our phone number in case they face more opposition than they can handle.

Not every faction down here might take the change well.
 
$14,000 split among 10 people is something, but we need consistent revenue to make good plans.

For the moment I'm thinking we split it up a bit. We take $8000 to invest/work with, reserve $4000 to spend on immediate needs for the group, and then give them $2000 outright as an operating budget.

Money is nice and flexible, letting them solve problems as they come up. It's also basically petty cash, so it's a good test for how trustworthy and effective they are right now.

Really we could give them a bigger direct budget, but I'd prefer to keep them running back to us where we can.

In terms of what to spend the reserve on, looking around online it seems possible to get three bed condos for $700-$800 a month. Not good ones, and not furnished, but unless they've got a particularly good setup down here they're better off sleeping on the floor indoors.

Assume the higher cost, add $200 a unit for heating/electric/utilities in general, then make one group take an extra person. So $3000 to put them somewhere warm. Leave the rest under our bed for unexpected ghoul related expenses.

At those prices, I doubt anyone gives much of a shit, but if anyone tries to be picky about it we can rent them in our name. It's perfectly legal, and not anyone's business why we want them.

We want them working security in the tunnels, but that's no reason to make them live like animals. They can work in shifts to keep continuous coverage, and some cell phones (cyber devils at no extra charge) to keep coordinated would fit in our surprise ghoul expense account.

It also makes it easier to grab a few whenever we want minions for shenanigan reasons.
As to leadership, part of the problem is a scale thing. 10 people don't need and can't really support a complex governing apparatus and will probably collapse back into small group politics anyway if we try.

For now I think we should keep it simple; Adam stays operational leader, and we regularly check in and overrule him where needed.

Long term I think the best bet is to organize them as departments that answer to us, so that no single person other than Molly has universal authority. Stuff like having one person be our secretary/quartermaster with their own subordinates, another in charge of security forces with some of their own, and so on by major working group.

They meet and coordinate, with Molly running things overall. If we get big enough that the meetings become unwieldy we break them up into related sub-groups.
 
What they really need is to get out of here, but that is going to take work. None of them have their IDs anymore."
Does anything stop Molly from turning her incredible feats of craftsmanship to stamping out some fake IDs? They could potentially even have some real information on them, if the ghouls remember it. Social security cards and driver's licenses are works of human craft and at this point in history not everyone is completely wired into all-knowing databases so just having a card with the right stuff on it should be more than sufficient for all day to day practical purposes.

Not having a specific piece of useful paperwork is an issue that can be solved in a scene. Not having a paper trail is a little harder if they want to rent property or get jobs or similar but I don't think we're aiming for that from them at this point.

Anyway, thoughts:

Charity has a point about not wanting the previous power structure to keep existing just under us, but there are usually practical reasons that the person in charge was in charge. We can't always be here to back our minions up and phones don't work down here for them to call us for help, so whoever we leave in charge needs to be able to make the calls that keep everyone alive and have the ability to follow through on them. I don't have a ton of faith in their previous leader to be able to do that but I think I have even less faith in anyone else in the group. No easy solution here.

The biggest thing I think we're lacking at the moment to make this work well is easy coordination- we need to get reliable communication between Molly and the station set up and preferably secure an efficient passage between there and the surface as well. I am not sure what the optimal course for making that happen is. Molly can almost certainly just force the issue herself- tunnel straight up and install a staircase, run a cable with a repeater to the phone network, that sort of thing- but who knows who that might involve trampling over or burrowing into the basement of. We also might need an additional investment of AP to do that. Still, not having reliable communication is unacceptable.

Standing orders should probably involve some guidelines for interaction with the elemental. Depending on how willing it is to help out it might be able to serve as a protector/heavy hitter for the ghouls if they're attacked, but it might also perceive that as dragging it into problems unnecessarily. What are its opinions on people living in the station, anyway?

We likely want the ghouls to make a recruitment pitch to anyone who fits the easy minion demographic that comes by, since the alternative by Undertown standards is likely driving them off with violence. Can we arrange simple tasks that they can direct anyone willing to be recruited to perform in our service so that our charm kicks in even if Molly herself isn't involved at all?
 
Does anything stop Molly from turning her incredible feats of craftsmanship to stamping out some fake IDs? They could potentially even have some real information on them, if the ghouls remember it. Social security cards and driver's licenses are works of human craft and at this point in history not everyone is completely wired into all-knowing databases so just having a card with the right stuff on it should be more than sufficient for all day to day practical purposes.

Not having a specific piece of useful paperwork is an issue that can be solved in a scene. Not having a paper trail is a little harder if they want to rent property or get jobs or similar but I don't think we're aiming for that from them at this point.

Anyway, thoughts:

Charity has a point about not wanting the previous power structure to keep existing just under us, but there are usually practical reasons that the person in charge was in charge. We can't always be here to back our minions up and phones don't work down here for them to call us for help, so whoever we leave in charge needs to be able to make the calls that keep everyone alive and have the ability to follow through on them. I don't have a ton of faith in their previous leader to be able to do that but I think I have even less faith in anyone else in the group. No easy solution here.

The biggest thing I think we're lacking at the moment to make this work well is easy coordination- we need to get reliable communication between Molly and the station set up and preferably secure an efficient passage between there and the surface as well. I am not sure what the optimal course for making that happen is. Molly can almost certainly just force the issue herself- tunnel straight up and install a staircase, run a cable with a repeater to the phone network, that sort of thing- but who knows who that might involve trampling over or burrowing into the basement of. We also might need an additional investment of AP to do that. Still, not having reliable communication is unacceptable.

Standing orders should probably involve some guidelines for interaction with the elemental. Depending on how willing it is to help out it might be able to serve as a protector/heavy hitter for the ghouls if they're attacked, but it might also perceive that as dragging it into problems unnecessarily. What are its opinions on people living in the station, anyway?

We likely want the ghouls to make a recruitment pitch to anyone who fits the easy minion demographic that comes by, since the alternative by Undertown standards is likely driving them off with violence. Can we arrange simple tasks that they can direct anyone willing to be recruited to perform in our service so that our charm kicks in even if Molly herself isn't involved at all?

Forging ID is not crafting, you are not making a thing for physical use, it's Law, because you need to understand how those official documents look and then copy them precisely over. In Exalted it would be bureaucracy but law is the closest here.
 
Forging ID is not crafting, you are not making a thing for physical use, it's Law, because you need to understand how those official documents look and then copy them precisely over. In Exalted it would be bureaucracy but law is the closest here.
So we'd end up with beautifully designed but totally nonsensical IDs?

Cop, after pulling over a ghoul: "Why does your license have "In God We Trust" written on it?"
 
[X] [Leadership] Adam stays in operational command and reports regularly to you. Each ghoul will be issued with a phone housing a cyberdevil, who will act as their companion and, if needed, technical support. They will be able to send suggestions and feedback using those.
[X] [Food and Ammaneties] You will work together with them to construct temporary, but comfortable shelters, with an aim at more permanent habitation later.
[X] [Standing orders] Guard the Last Station. If any serious force makes moves on it, warn you. Start getting your life back together (work on getting their IDs restored).


Honestly not sure what else.
 
[X] [Leadership] Adam stays in operational command and reports regularly to you. Each ghoul will be issued with a phone housing a cyberdevil, who will act as their companion and, if needed, technical support. They will be able to send suggestions and feedback using those.
[X] [Food and Ammaneties] You will work together with them to construct temporary, but comfortable shelters, with an aim at more permanent habitation later.
[X] [Standing orders] Guard the Last Station. If any serious force makes moves on it, warn you. Start getting your life back together (work on getting their IDs restored).


Honestly not sure what else.
Some of them have likely been robbing people and selling stuff through fences. We should see if any of them have contacts that are useful for selling random jewelry and other small valuable items. It could be a useful way to begin laundering the products of our crafts in a way that funnels money into this community we are building.
 
Some of them have likely been robbing people and selling stuff through fences. We should see if any of them have contacts that are useful for selling random jewelry and other small valuable items. It could be a useful way to begin laundering the products of our crafts in a way that funnels money into this community we are building.

They are ghouls in undertown, they do not really go out much and their usual victims do not really have jewels on them.
 
In terms of the ID situation, @DarkLight140 has a point about not needing to be in every database under the sun yet.

We might not be able to fake something convincing, but all we need to do is get a cyber devil into a computer at a random BMV and/or hospital and we could have them generate a fake entry for them in the system.

Getting the people on site to hand stuff out without alternate IDs would be hard, but once we've got devils in their systems we can break in while they're closed and produce a new ID using their own equipment and existing work as examples.

Once they have a single form of real identification and an entry in a single database we can use it to bootstrap an identity without too much trouble.
 
I am very ignorant about the cost, feasibility and if it is actually a bad idea, but we could buy a building near the station, if necessary remodel it as an apartment building, make stairs and/or a tunnel to the underground, and maybe make some rooms down there.

We get a place for our ghouls/minions to live, i think it would count for MIS if we tell them to pay a tithe(Which we could legally collect and justify as their landlord) and to protect our property, which, well, is their home, and we wouldn't need to keep using Marcone's entrance.
 
I am very ignorant about the cost, feasibility and if it is actually a bad idea, but we could buy a building near the station, if necessary remodel it as an apartment building, make stairs and/or a tunnel to the underground, and maybe make some rooms down there.

We get a place for our ghouls/minions to live, i think it would count for MIS if we tell them to pay a tithe(Which we could legally collect and justify as their landlord) and to protect our property, which, well, is their home, and we wouldn't need to keep using Marcone's entrance.

Buying property is the most efficient long term solution, but we don't really have the cash to do it now. This kind of purchase could easily end up in millions of dollars territory, without even getting into taxes and maintenance costs.

Edit:

Another thought on short term housing: we could use extended stay hotels or corporate apartments.

Extended stay places exist for businesses that bring people in for long term trips. Usually not for months on end, but it's not that rare either. They're also only about as rigorous ID wise as a regular hotel, and most have no issue with a corporation making a reservation and then giving them the name of whoever is picking up the key.

Some apartment complexes near business districts will do something similar, where they rent out an apartment to a company and then let them issue keys to whoever. There are charges associated with that, but companies still do it when if they have people cycling through a location often enough that it's more cost effective than hotels are.

Chicago is a major city, these sorts of services should be readily available if we want to pay a surcharge for more anonymity via shell corporations.
 
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