Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Because all homeless people are not a collectively organized group with a solariod that can do humanly impossible leadership rolls.
But also I don't expect to be able to solve all ghoul problems forever quickly and easily. I just want to spread around the solution to the one problem that we can solve quickly and easily then work from there.
You seem to want to solve all problems for this small group and ignore all others.
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- Location
- Who knows?
[X] Help with security, keep other factions away from the Last Station
- Location
- Germany
[X] Help with security, keep other factions away from the Last Station
True, but organization doesn't change the basic math. "Organize for the collective good of a small local sub group" is the third oldest idea in existence, narrowly beat out by sex and murder. That no one even really tries without external support says something worth noting, even for an exalt.
Moreover, this is a very Molly heavy scheme and is therefore limited by her presence and focus. It stretches further, but we're limited on this front in the same way we can't conquer the world with a speech tour. It occupies more and more of her time, making it harder and harder to get the space to automate it.
I'm not trying to solve them all forever either, but get our feet under us and grow as we get bigger and better established.
The difference in perspective here, I think, is that you view MiS as something we can spread around distinctly from mutual and personal obligation and I don't.
We control the only supply of a critical treatment for ghouls and similar CoD, one which requires them to live their lives in some way knowingly subordinating themselves to us.
That isn't a party favor you hand out and shrug off.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
It isn't as if we are forcing them*. If they feel like the price is higher than the benefits they don't have to take the deal and can quit any time. I feel that it is better to make that choice available then withholding it because it isn't the best choice ever.
*That would be a very different discussion.
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- Location
- UK
Is there a list of Infernal charms anywhere? I've searched the character sheet and googled it and managed to find a charm list for every Exalt except Infernal (and Alchemical) and all this talk of Spawned Pit Sanctification and whatever VEE is has my curiosity driving me crazy.
DP posted it somewhere in the thread, but here's a link.
Their ability to choose doesn't factor into how effective our decisions are. From my perspective your approach is flawed because it picks the superficial spread over the substance of establishing something more solid.
It's less effective in every respect except the instant satisfaction of people getting a quick hit of relief.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
And from my perspective perfect is the enemy of good. My approach is quicker and no way stops us from raising the baseline afterwards. It's normal for cults to have different levels of membership.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I feel like people are prioritizing Molly's self image of being a good boss over actually helping people, but the votes are in.
They where able to survive while suffering from a terrible disability. Halting the hunger would allows them to do things like go up top a get even a minimum wage job.
Nobody cares about Ghouls they are off brand mook minions. They are the people you call up when your actual mook's are out sick.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Or when they find a dog or such to eat they can control themselves and not eat the whole thing in one sitting. The ability to pace themselves and save food for later is also likely to be very useful.
From who? Who is going to attack us because we are saving the dregs of society that no one cares about? The fact that no one cares about them is the whole* reason we are doing this.
*Ok most.
They are human+ in terms of physicals, so they are the prime target for various "Inject 30XP per week of training straight into veins" training charms solaroids have.
The painful but is that Index/3 dot training charm is kinda questionable because it inflicts various side-effects that need additional management, 5 dots training charm is 5 dot expensive and is from Dark Ages, meaning we can't buy it rn, and academic side of training charms for Infernals isn't printed at all, meaning it would need to be a homebrew.
So, we are unable to take advantage of this for the foreseeable future, most likely.
I wonder if they are already fomori, mechanically, or do we get to do that wonderful thing called stacking templates.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Chirality Prohibition Index (•••) is 3 dots and isn't dark age. It's in the wicked city charms.
The side effects are mostly just sort of cultist. They learn to hate something, like the nickelheads. They speak a certain language like English. They have to wear a uniform. Also they count as a creature of darkness which they already do.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Yes it is a shame that we don't have ways to empower our family members to help them fight the good fight. Or more like the ways we have come with rather high price tags. Infernal gifts seem to always have a price built into them.
Which makes sense. By lore an exaltation can not be diminished in any way, but adding a price to all given gifts can be considered an improvement on the charm. From a certain point of view.
1)The fact that most of them seem to be adults or near it means their mortality rate has dropped below 90%.
It doesnt actually say that its anywhere near comparable to even a vanilla human in their twenties in a warzone.
Just the very fact that ghouls, for all their superhuman stats, canonically get sick and die as a major cause of death (unlike Whampires, who dont afaik) translates to a vastly higher mortality rate than your adult human who can go to a hospital and get medical care.
And this is still Chicago summer, when you can sleep rough in relative safety as long as you stay out of the wet.
Wait till winter, when environmental conditions markedly worsen and people become more susceptible to ill health.
Chicago is called the Windy City for a reason.
2)This is not a ghoul clan. A ghoul clan is an independent sociopolitical organization with (as far as we know)blood ties and significant resources. They are established in human and supernatural society. The LaChaise ghoul clan, for example, has members going to university(see Ambre LaChaise in Ghoul Goblin), and are signatories to the Unseelie Accords.
This is not a ghoul clan. And its not ever likely to be.
3) Ghouls have no ID and no work history. No ID, no bank accounts.
How are they supposed to be paid? How do they cash a check? How many honest jobs out there will even pay you in cash in 2006? How many of those are trustworthy and wont screw you if they can?
How does someone fresh from Undertown react when some petty tyrant supervisor tripping off power screams in their face?
How are they supposed to work in close proximity to strangers in some warehouse on an assembly line packing candy, or in a kitchen somewhere?
Hell, what do they do if US Immigration raids their workplace looking for undocumented immigrants?
Precisely how do you expect an attempt at putting handcuffs on a ghoul will go?
No offence, but I dont think you are actually thinking through any of the (many) potential pitfalls in asking a bunch of unsocialized supernatural predators to go look for minimum wage jobs.
Their learned survival behaviors are very much at odds with dealing with the microaggressions that the urban poor endure.
4)Dude, if we go from just 9-10 to 50 ghouls?
Our food bill goes from ~$6,000 to ~$30,000 dollars a month. Our clothing bill explodes into the five figures.
A thousand ghouls would require around $600,000 a month on food alone.
Never mind clothes or sanitary supplies. Or housing.
These are all just basic costs.
We arent even promising a minimum-wage paycheck yet. Or healthcare and dental, which is a whole different can of worms.
You cant just handwave the fact that logistics costs for people are a significant and rapidly escalating cost the more people you take responsibility for by invoking solaroid magic. Even Solars had to invest time and effort and resources to care for people in Creation, and that was a place where their charms were more bullshit.
You are being cavalier about the difficulties involved in caring for and reintegrating societal outcasts.
My (very verbose) two cents.
-Homeless people are also not members of a human subspecies with several years of ingrained survival behaviors from what they have had to do to survive. A homeless person gets mad they throw hands, a ghoul gets mad they could shapeshift and rip people's throats out with fang and claw.
We literally just saw the ghoul leader here escalate from "tell them to leave" to "I am going to cook them in their own pot" in literally seconds, and we had to resort to a death threat to make him sit down and shut up.
Dont delude yourself that this is an easier case than dealing with homeless people.
-Yeah no. We had these people swear to follow us. They're now our freely chosen responsibility.
Their health, their safety, their general condition reflects on us and our reputation.
And reputation matters in the Dresdenverse.
People WILL judge us based on how we treat our recruits/rescues.
And those judgements will reflect on our relations going forward.
This is about as helpful as telling a diabetic complaining about a mixed up prescription that you arent forcing them to buy insulin from you, and can go buy it elsewhere at a different shop. Or telling a homeless person complaining about mandatory prayer they dont have to stay at your shelter and can go elsewhere.
This is an unequal relationship by definition.
-No. We are arguing for being cautious about overreaching our capabilities.
And we are being mindful that this reflects on Molly's supernatural reputation and her ability to do business in the supernatural world, which can have implications for her, her family, and a lot more bystanders than just the ghouls of Chicago's Undertown.
And first impressions matter.
-Furthermore, its not self image. Its public image. How supernatural society sees and judges us.
We're a bloody Infernal. We will be doing PR at a disadvantage among large sections of supernatural society for the foreseeable future, and some will always view us with suspicion.
Our reputation does not need self-inflicted injuries, like failing to meet basic levels of care for people we take into service and assume responsbility for. People will look at their condition and draw conclusions, rightly or wrongly, about how we treat people in our power, and what value judgements we make about others.
Even the Denarians, who cut out their minions tongues and issue suicide pills, do better.
Chirality Prohibition Index is strictly speaking more limiting than One Hundred Disciples, even if its 8 XP cheaper.
I'd rather pay the surcharge for the better version if the QM will let us.
Honestly a lot more willing to use Index on nonsapients.
Use it to uplift your very own set of ninja turtles, for example. Much less willing to use it even on ghouls.
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Added your new minions to the front page under organizations.
Do they have human IDs? Social security numbers? Are they in the foster system?
They have identities, what they do not have any more is their actual IDs for various reasons including 'destroyed it themselves' when they realized what they had become.