Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Coincidentally, yesterday I was re-reading my copy of Dan Abnett's Grey Area, and it contained a perfect example of why avoiding cultural misunderstandings is so important.
Plot setup is that the protagonists are immigration officers...checking extraterrestrial visitors to Earth.

It's a messy job, but someone's got to do it, right?
Anyway, a couple folks from a ministry get a permit to come in and do the good samaritan business among travellers stuck waiting in line for way too long.
Then one of the missionaries approaches a group and says "It is, happily, my mission to support you. We are all God's children."

Turns out when immigration did their initial interviews with these fine and very polite folks (no complaints whatsoever) they missed the teeny tiny detail that they are extremely antitheist, on account of their god having tried to eat their home planet (so they nuked his arse and dropped him into their sun). So to them the old guy was preaching religious hatred, and they get morally outraged.
Vote for cultural flashpoints. Don't accidentally make Big Tree Lady think it's time to throw down.

Very surprised Jaromila wasn't at the impromptu gathering. An indication she's being sidelined or too busy with internal stuff?

yrsillar said:

She was taller than her husband but shorter than Ling Qi, but she wore a very strange conical hat, marked with regular geometric symbols, from the caps tip a white veil spilled down around her back and shoulders. The rest of her dress bore similar markings and the whole thing had more color than her husbands, being mostly silvers and blues, among the layers of the gown, which were not much less intricate than Ling Qi's own dress.

"The Gessiar people believe that only a man and woman together may make a complete Emissary," Khadne said.

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Given they're from the Seared Lands, how ironic would it be if they're being literal and there's some soul cultivation going on? A man and a woman coming together via soul cultivation. Reminds me a bit of Plato's Symposium, where a man and a woman are each a half of a single whole, hence the desire for love. Would also tie in with geometric symbols.

[X] Seek out information on history and culture to better understand the forces at play here. (better understanding of the factions within the White Sky their disposition, and potential cultural flashpoints)

I'm hoping we can spin the Twilight King as something similar to void demons, a spooky otherworldly and unnatural force that subverted and corrupted people, that a cool rad lady sun Sacrificed to stop. It's even true!

Mr.Kittens said:

Very surprised Jaromila wasn't at the impromptu gathering. An indication she's being sidelined or too busy with internal stuff?

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Tentative suspicion is it has something to do with the south/capital not being interested. She might have resurrected some of the family drama she moved north to escape, and she's busy dealing with that.

On the other hand, that crow guy did imply that he'd spoken to her, so who knows. Could just as easily be something to do with the cloud members of the White Sky, given her connection through Ilsur. Or just schedules not lining up. This is a very preliminary touching of bases, after all.

[X] Seek out information on history and culture to better understand the forces at play here. (better understanding of the factions within the White Sky their disposition, and potential cultural flashpoints)

Being aware of cultural flashpoints goes both ways, now that I think about it. It's not just about learning what Ling Qi can do to avoid the Polar delegation getting pissed off, it's learning what Polar habits and mores might cause, say, the official Peaks observer to try and capsize the summit in a fit of moral outrage.

[X] Seek out information on material things, structures of government and institutions at play here.(better understanding of the likely material demands and potential flashpoints of conflict between your institutions)

Look, just because culture is Ling Qi's theme, it doesn't mean ALL her choices have to be geared toward culture and history.
What is it going to be discussed at the summit? Is it each side's traditions, their history, what each one consider rude? An exchange of art and customs?
No. What we are going to discuss is how we are going to coexist at the Wall. How we are going to divide terrain, who owns which resources, which trade routes will be stablished.
We need to know what these people want to obtain out of this summit beforehand, so we can strategize around theirs and our side demands.

The thing is that, IMO, we already know enough about their culture. Thanks to Grydja we already know what is considered the greatest virtue for them: to (literally) become a pilar of Community and protect and support everyone. On the other hand, selfish accumulation of power is what they despise most.
As long as we frame our proposals to fit in that narrative, there won't be any major cultural conflict.
Minor issues, like the bread sharing, are things we can already deal with, as we have just seen innthis update. Both sides are going to ruffle the other's feathers. Learning more about the WS culture won't prevent that. Because we can't force the ES's representatives to exceedingly accommodate the WS's customs just as we can't the WS to accept ours.

It's true that common ascentry is the flag we are using to give the summit legitimacy. But it's a mistake to focus so exclusively in that side of things.
Ignoring such a critical factor as the actual contents of the pact, just because it isn't Ling Qi's speciality, is absurd.
There is only so much that a good narrative can do. We need to ensure that this agreement will bring material profit to both sides so people will be compelled to fulfill it.
Sadly, and argument of cultural similarities and avoid unnecessary deaths isn't enough. It should be, but it isn't.

The people here, on both sides, don't care about cultural bonds so much. That's just the reason why they think these negotiations are plausible at all.
Let's work in what will actually help the success of the summit, instead of just doubling over Ling Qi's personal interests and Way.

[X] Seek out information on material things, structures of government and institutions at play here.(better understanding of the likely material demands and potential flashpoints of conflict between your institutions)

The nitty gritty of cultural interaction is, unfortunately, still extremely relevant for how well the summit can play out. If we had others we could count on shouldering the burden of smoothing those interactions with us, I'd lean on them in an instant. That's not a resource we have or seemingly will have the opportunity to cultivate outside of ourselves in the leadup to, and execution of, the summit. The know-how simply doesn't exist.

For better or for worse, Ling Qi is the loadbearing element of cultural outreach, which the summit fundamentally rests on. There's nobody else fit for the job. There's hardly anyone else who seems to think it's a factor worth considering, which is extra dangerous. And it's an important matter where, yes, we've overcome some initial snags, but we don't know what we don't know. Seems sensible to me to ensure the one area that nobody else can cover is covered as best as possible.

On a more calculating angle, knowledge of the factional breakdowns of White Sky gives Ling Qi and Cai Renxiang's core crew an advantage over other Emerald Seas actors. We'll be able to coordinate matters and weigh priorities in a way that a) our domestic partners can't compete with or circumvent as easily and b) might diffuse problematic positions from domestic partners before they can actually cause problems.

[X] Seek out information on history and culture to better understand the forces at play here. (better understanding of the factions within the White Sky their disposition, and potential cultural flashpoints)

As long as no one, on either side, is actively trying to be rude or give offense I'm pretty certain our current knowledge and skills are more than sufficient enough.
Just like we won't be actually mad that the WS don't follow Imperial Court protocols, WS shouldn't get mad if the ES don't follow some non-written rules about hospitality.
The important thing is that we display a sincere collaborative actitude.

The minor cultural details would only serve to improve WS's mood. It wouldn't help in getting them to agree to a point (like the frontiers the Wang asked of us) they find beyond the line.

Finding out about those lines is a top priority for me.

And it isn't like we aren't making an effort to improve the WS's mood. That's what the crew and military cooperation action is about. To show our sincere intent to work together despite our differences.
Compared to that, learning some customs won't have much on a impact on their mood.

A lot of people are too focused in WS's culture.
But, what are the WS's Wants?
How can we truly understand them and reach an agreement if we don't know that much?

One of the many reasons I'm interested in culture (and a very peripheral one that may not even come up) is the off chance that in that discussion, LQ might have to explain Spiritblooded people to the Emissaries... Considering their reaction to Hanyi, warning them that some of our allies are "half-humans" might be worth it so they aren't surprised.

Hmm, look at it this way. If Cai Renxiang was having this meeting, would we expect her to come back to the group with info on bureaucratic and institutional structures or cultural and historical info? If Meng Dan was having this meeting, would we expect him to come back to the group with info on bureaucratic and institutional structures or cultural and historical info?

Pretty obviously the former and the latter, respectively. Because that's what they're good at. Last vote, one of the prominent, and ultimately successful, arguments was that we don't have the time and energy to be splitting ourselves between interests just because they're there. We need to focus our efforts and the burdens we personally take on. It was a good argument, and it applies here too. We have a limited amount of time and room on Ling Qi's plate, too little I'd argue to be slicing it up between areas of expertise, especially with areas she has no substantial experience with. We wouldn't expect other characters to act outside of their strengths without support, so I don't see why that's a sensible or fruitful burden to take on ourselves here, either.

And besides that, there's "a limited number of meetings before the summit proper", not none other than this one. It's true we need to tackle the material practicalities of potential conflicts, institutional structures, etc. but it seems more productive to approach those issues with a genuine expert by our side, rather than inflicting our novice grasp of such things on both our foreign guests and our allies relying on our reports. What's better to do here is focus on building our ability to facilitate exchanges between people who know what they're talking about.

We'll be getting a taste of institutional friction from our committed to security force de-tensioning actions, already. And it'd be really weird if that was the only opportunity. Institutional/material concerns will not be neglected, this isn't our only opportunity, but it's plausibly the opportunity where we're least capable since we're running solo. Let's not try to wear every hat. Focus on our strengths, grow them, and lend that strength to our allies so they can bring their own strengths to bear.

I wonder if Shu Yue has already compared notes with the Crow Uncles and come to an arrangement, like they did with the fortress where Ling Qi and company met Jaromila and Ilsur.
Hopefully with some snark thrown in re: the capabilities of the MoI people trying to skulk around.

Doramas said:

Look, just because culture is Ling Qi's theme, it doesn't mean ALL her choices have to be geared toward culture and history.
What is it going to be discussed at the summit? Is it each side's traditions, their history, what each one consider rude? An exchange of art and customs?
No. What we are going to discuss is how we are going to coexist at the Wall. How we are going to divide terrain, who owns which resources, which trade routes will be stablished.
We need to know what these people want to obtain out of this summit beforehand, so we can strategize around theirs and our side demands.

The thing is that, IMO, we already know enough about their culture. Thanks to Grydja we already know what is considered the greatest virtue for them: to (literally) become a pilar of Community and protect and support everyone. On the other hand, selfish accumulation of power is what they despise most.
As long as we frame our proposals to fit in that narrative, there won't be any major cultural conflict.
Minor issues, like the bread sharing, are things we can already deal with, as we have just seen innthis update. Both sides are going to ruffle the other's feathers. Learning more about the WS culture won't prevent that. Because we can't force the ES's representatives to exceedingly accommodate the WS's customs just as we can't the WS to accept ours.

It's true that common ascentry is the flag we are using to give the summit legitimacy. But it's a mistake to focus so exclusively in that side of things.
Ignoring such a critical factor as the actual contents of the pact, just because it isn't Ling Qi's speciality, is absurd.
There is only so much that a good narrative can do. We need to ensure that this agreement will bring material profict to both sides so people will be compelled to fulfill it.
Sadly, and argument of cultural similarities and avoid unnecessary deaths isn't enough. It should be, but it isn't.

The people here, on both sides, don't care about cultural bonds so much. That's just the reason why they think these negotiations are plausible at all.
Let's work in what will actually help the success of the summit, instead of just doubling over Ling Qi's personal interests and Way.

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Do keep in mind that we voted on a cultural and historical exchange for the summit, so learning more about then beforehand can help with that.

yrsillar said:

AN: We will now have a vote on negotiations. Ling Qi is confident that she can fulfill the minimum requirements so please vote on which of the following points Ling Qi should focus on.

[] Sharing of historical texts and information. Strengthening the purported cultural ties will go a long way toward mollifying grumbling from more conservative factions in both parties.
[] Push for an exchange of people. You can't stay, but in speaking with your companions Meng Dan has volunteered and assured you his aunt would approve. Bringing back someone nobles of the Emerald Seas can see and speak too would surely help.
[] Don't press your luck more than necessary, you've established good relations, let things grow from there

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So trading cultural information can immensely help with preparations.

And, apart from the cultural exchange, we're also adding on some nonaggression pact negotiations.

And note that, even if the Empire sent observers, it's largely disinterested. Just like how the Glittering City is disinterested. So institutional conflicts may not be so important right now.

First impressions matter, and knowing about their culture, even if we don't know much about their institutions, would go a long way

I would expect any of them to bring the information that is actually useful and relevant.
And I know there will be more meetings after this one. But not that many. We have the Wang questline, the Argent Sect action and more. Right after this we are going to meet with GG and Renxiang to share all the factions demands and see how we can construct an action plan around them. Knowing the WS's own material demands right now would be massively useful for that.

I just entirely disagree with this weird notion that because Ling Qi is specially good at the cultural side of things, it somehow means she has to focus almost entirely on that aspect.
This is a completely different situation than last vote. We aren't opening or introducing any new elements, characters or actions. There aren't two different, separate sides of this summit, the cultural side and the material side, competing for narrative space. No, it isn't like that. There is only one objective: for the summit to be a complete success. All our time and effort is going to be dedicated to that regardless of which option wins.
Learning about the WS's materials demands isn't dispersing our focus outside our expertise. It's actually learning the information we need to make all of this work! We aren't going to make any promises on our own. We are just going to probe into what the want so we can have it in consideration in our plans.

The thing is, either way, we're getting both options. Understanding their culture helps us understand how it's shaped their institutions and vice versa.

I see this as more "what'll Ling Qi focus on here, since she's getting the base minimum for both

[X] Seek out information on history and culture to better understand the forces at play here. (better understanding of the factions within the White Sky their disposition, and potential cultural flashpoints)