Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

[X] His grudge is against community itself. He thinks it's contracts and strictures as false and hollow as his own dealings. That he is superior for seeing this, where others do not. (+1 Community XP)

qwolfs said:

I think this is where we diverge. If Yan Renshu were where Ling Qi is now he'd say the world was unfair because he wasn't in Meizhen's place. He cannot be satisfied with his position, because he cannot accurately understand his own value.

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No, I think the idea that he deserves it is the foundation here. Meizhen hasn't done anything to obviously deserve her level of success. He'll rage against her more, because once he decided that the people like him (the people that are him) are not getting what they deserve, then he decided that people like Meizhen are where that largess was obviously going instead. If people weren't being stolen from, then there wouldn't be any Meizhens at all. And he's not a monster, he doesn't want to steal from you! He's just taking what he's earned, and the people that gave it to you stole it from him. It's so very tragic what he has to do to get what he deserves, isn't it?

The seed from a which a tree grows shapes the tree as much as its environment.

Thor's Twin said:

Now... let's not get ahead of ourselves. Sure, it is unforgivable and terrible... and the Empire does it as well. Lest we forget that when the initial probe into Shishigui territory a target that the expedition leader wanted to hit was civilian infrastructure. Or the entire tribe of cloud nomads that were slain except for one escapee.

While certainly Meizhen and Renxiang don't really know about those situations, let's not try to take the moral high ground here and say the Empire only attacks military targets.

In other matters, I do like the first option for the choices available, even if the second sounds cooler.

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While true, it is worth noting that from the Empires perspective they would be hitting cultivation targets in both those cases. (all cloud tribes are cultivators or able to become one and ith-ia are all atleast red) As they see a difference between "civil" cultivator infrastucture and mortals/mortal infrastructure. Take it this way, the Empire see attacking mortals as killing children more then anything. Anything above mortal seems to be free for all.

... Mind the Empire did/do kill entire tribes down to the babes nowadays and before if not the Plumes or Wang are nearby. So yeah, no moral high ground here. Still it is worth pointing out the Empires pov.

[X] His grudge is against community itself. He thinks it's contracts and strictures as false and hollow as his own dealings. That he is superior for seeing this, where others do not. (+1 Community XP)

Of the choices I think this one captures the most truth.

Elsecaller said:

...are you saying that Yan Renshu isn't a complete narcissist? Cause he definitely is. And choosing to side with the ith and completely destroying your family isn't exactly a rational decision when he was already a baron (as well as coming from an extremely wealthy family even if they weren't nobility so not exactly peasants, likely living in luxury Qi couldn't imagine when she was on the streets). Suyin went through the same shit Renshu did in his first year and she was arguably less talented, but she never became as bitter or really as entitled as Resnhu did. Yeah bad shit happened to him but he constantly doubled down on doing heinous shit when he had so many off ramps. He's an arrogant asshole who deserves no sympathy at this point.

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I'm saying that our character is the iron boot stamping on the face of people like him, because that's how an aristocracy rolls.

Most of the people who revolted against the aristocracy came from the upper strata of the lower classes, and accusations of narcissism, which basically means not knowing one's place because you have too high an opinion of oneself, are the classic justifications to delegitimise those opinions.

It'll be sumptuary laws next, and criticising him for wearing too expensive clothes.

[X] His grudge is against community itself. He thinks it's contracts and strictures as false and hollow as his own dealings. That he is superior for seeing this, where others do not. (+1 Community XP)

Mr.Kittens said:

I haven't considered that LQ won't only see the resentment of herself and her enemies, but also that of her friends and family. That's honestly pretty shitty.

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I thought the opposite being quite happy, immediately jumping to therapy. Can't help people without knowing what ails them. I'm hoping we might be able to get an insight like the below from this:

Pain brings pain, and only by knowing that pain can one exploit it, defend against it or even heal it, whether in yourself or others.

[X] His grudge is against community itself. He thinks it's contracts and strictures as false and hollow as his own dealings. That he is superior for seeing this, where others do not. (+1 Community XP)

[X] His grudge is against community itself. He thinks it's contracts and strictures as false and hollow as his own dealings. That he is superior for seeing this, where others do not. (+1 Community XP)

[X] His grudge is against community itself. He thinks it's contracts and strictures as false and hollow as his own dealings. That he is superior for seeing this, where others do not. (+1 Community XP)

Both good options, but this one fits better for me.

MrRageQuit said:

This is why I can't see him as being against the world, because he is clearly distinguishing the Empire as just one part of a wider world, and because the Ith-ia seem to recognize his abilities, he thinks they're sympathetic and fairer. He certainly doesn't feel alone.

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Him being against the world actually fits quite well with that quote I think
Consider:
[ ] His grudge is against the world. He is alone, and wears his isolation as a crown. He deems this strength. Every time he is proven wrong, his grudge grows.

Him being against the world is about how he believes that he stands apart from everyone else, that he's better than them
And how this perceived superiority deserves success and praise
And when success and praise are not given, when he fails, then he feels unjustly oppressed
He must be unjustly oppressed, because he's better than everyone else and should therefore succeed, so his failure must always be the fault of others resenting his genius and conspiring to keep him from his rightful place
And so his bitterness grows and feeds upon itself from wallowing in his own misery

Honestly I believe both options are true, they simply reflect different parts of Renshu's nature

Alratan said:

It's a very flattering lie to claim that he's the narcissist and is entirely at fault for opposing the 'world' (our vision of how the world should be), rather than that he rationally chose another faction within the world that he saw as a better choice, the same way every other cultivator did.

How dare the peasant try to exceed their station and presume to have any agency not granted by their betters! True narcissism indeed

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It's a very flattering lie to claim that others are entirely at fault for his position, for opposing him and his vision of how the world should be
Rather than that he was manipulative monster who not only used and abused anyone he could to further his own benefit, but believed that his ability to do so made him superior to them
And who irrationally lashed out and betrayed everyone around him, including his own flesh and blood, after someone he tried to take advantage of fought back and brought his crooked empire down, denying him what he falsely believed he was owed by those around him by merit of existing

How dare those peasants try to exceed their station and presume to have any agency not granted by their better! True narcissism indeed

Alratan said:

I'm saying that our character is the iron boot stamping on the face of people like him, because that's how an aristocracy rolls.

Most of the people who revolted against the aristocracy came from the upper strata of the lower classes, and accusations of narcissism, which basically means not knowing one's place because you have too high an opinion of oneself, are the classic justifications to delegitimise those opinions.

It'll be sumptuary laws next, and criticising him for wearing too expensive clothes.

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...you do know that our character literally was a street rat right? Nobody is keeping him down anymore. Yeah the crippling was bad but he had every opportunity to climb the social latter after that and he actually was doing so, despite he himself trying to control and take down everyone around him with his contracts and deceptions. Don't forget that he targeted Qi first, attempting to frame her for crimes so he'd get her to turn to him for help. He literally made Baron. He would have had the life that he wanted as a baron with a powerful and wealthy family far beyond most new barons if he had just not picked the dumbest path for himself because of his own raging ego. He is definitely a raging narcissist.

He considers everyone around him as tools to be thrown away when no longer needed including his own clan. He is the narcissist Qi thinks he is.

[x] His grudge is against community itself. He thinks it's contracts and strictures as false and hollow as his own dealings. That he is superior for seeing this, where others do not. (+1 Community XP)

I don't think he's demonstrated enough of the kind of pride that says the world rejects him because of his genius - he very evidently craves affirmation even from his enemies, he wants to Matter.

Yan Renshu is a boy who JUST learned enough to know that civil society is just an arrangement to mitigate the losses from human nature in action. Without the maturity to think why everyone else supports it anyway for both pragmatic and idealistic reasons.

As long as you win every trade, you win after all.

Yan Renshu isn't some revolutionary who wants to destroy the nobility and install communism into the Empire. If he had his way, he'd be the Emperor and everyone else would be magically bound slaves to him.

[X] His grudge is against the world. He is alone, and wears his isolation as a crown. He deems this strength. Every time he is proven wrong, his grudge grows. (+1 Isolation XP)

[X] His grudge is against community itself. He thinks it's contracts and strictures as false and hollow as his own dealings. That he is superior for seeing this, where others do not. (+1 Community XP)

Yan Renshu was probably never a saint. I very well believe that he was a more unpleasant than pleasant young man, but certainly a talented one.

But as Elder Ying mentioned once, he and his cultuvation got twisted due to the fact that he, already primed to dislike the nobility due to his family's ill luck, was mutilated by a noble. Who (the noble), if Ling Qi's initial impressions of him are any judge, is certainly not a pleasant character and as such it is dubious how much, if any, provocations were needed for him to escalate in that way.
To make matters worse, this also meant that Renshu was in no shape to compete to actually advance in that year. And that's without going into the likely looting of his resources that followed.
The kicker of course being that the noble in question never got punished by the Sect authorities, despite harming one of the more important duties of the Sect (creating and nurturing cultivators with some promise).

Meaning that the Sect laws, the Sect values were a lie.

This belief got reinforced by the fact that Yan could exploit other Outer disciples with impunity later on.

His miniature criminal empire only collapsed when he ran afoul of major nobles... again.

Yan Renshu, thus, has come to a truth of sorts. Might makes Right. Anything else: law, values, honor, morality, it is all a facade in service to the mighty.

The mighty (or the talented or the geniuses) get to decide what is right or wrong, not the "unwashed masses".

Honestly, the way I see YR, he would quite like some of Nietzsche's teachings, elitistic as they are.

EDIT: I forgot to mention. There is probably a dichotomy in YR's worldview where nobility is concerned. YR isn't against hierarchy or different castes or what have you. He is elitistic. It is just that he thinks one's worth should be judged by talent/genius, not status (and the following advantages). Now, we can be cynical, and say that's because he lacks that same status (and that feels more right than wrong), but I would argue that at this point it has got more to do with the accumulated grudges against imperial nobility in general (no matter their talent). Yan Renshu now quite despises all of imperial nobility, for it is their system that oppressed him.

Elsecaller said:

Nobody is keeping him down anymore. Yeah the crippling was bad but he had every opportunity to climb the social latter after that and he actually was doing so, despite he himself trying to control and take down everyone around him with his contracts and deceptions.

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The point here, I think, is that the social connections made by Ling Qi to the already powerful are not of any inherent worth. The choice provided by the Imperial community is more or less conform or die, which is not a legitimate choice. When the criteria for success are decided by the successful, you get a system with low mobility. Even the empire recognizes this, as they only foster talent at all to minimize Yan Renshu type threats.

Horium said:

Yan Renshu was probably never a saint. I very well believe that he was a more unpleasant than pleasant young man, but certainly a talented one.

But as Elder Ying mentioned once, he and his cultuvation got twisted due to the fact that he, already primed to dislike the nobility due to his family's ill luck, was mutilated by a noble. Who (the noble), if Ling Qi's initial impressions of him are any judge, is certainly not a pleasant character and as such it is dubious how much, if any, provocations were needed for him to escalate in that way.
To make matters worse, this also meant that Renshu was in no shape to compete to actually advance in that year. And that's without going into the likely looting of his resources that followed.
The kicker of course being that the noble in question never got punished by the Sect authorities, despite harming one of the more important duties of the Sect (creating and nurturing cultivators with some promise).

Meaning that the Sect laws, the Sect values were a lie.

This belief got reinforced by the fact that Yan could exploit other Outer disciples with impunity later on.

His miniature criminal empire only collapsed when he ran afoul of major nobles... again.

Yan Renshu, thus, has come to a truth of sorts. Might makes Right. Anything else: law, values, honor, morality, it is all a facade in service to the mighty.

The mighty (or the talented or the geniuses) get to decide what is right or wrong, not the "unwashed masses".

Honestly, the way I see YR, he would quite like some of Nietzsche's teachings, elitistic as they are.

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I think that this view really encapsulates what it means to think like Yan Renshu.

[X] His grudge is against the world. He is alone, and wears his isolation as a crown. He deems this strength. Every time he is proven wrong, his grudge grows. (+1 Isolation XP)

Both make sense to me to some degree, but I fundamentally think that, while Yan Renshu does not intentionally isolate himself, his loathing for other people and belief he is above them is integral rather than a result of the specific society he finds himself in, and that makes this one closer.