Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

[X] Plan Wherein Lies Meaning

[X] Plan Wherein Lies Meaning

anonymousknight said:

X] Plan Wherein Lies Meaning
-[X] [Professional] Survey the Wall
-[X] [Professional] Hou Zhuang's Gift 3 of 3
-[X] [Personal] Idols and Ancestors
-[X] [Personal] Sea of Dreams
-[X] [Cultivation] We Are But Ripples (Greater Argent Vent + Argent Domain) (6/3)
-[X] [Cultivation] The Laughing Wind (Shattered Gaol) (7/3)
-[X] [Cultivation] Frozen Soul Serenade Successor Creation

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[X] Plan Wherein Lies Meaning

[X] Plan Chilly Winds of Change

[X] Plan Wherein Lies Meaning

Well, it seems Soul of Ice is already forgone at this point.
The two leading plans are identical, except one has Raising The Bastion and the other We Are But Ripples.
Between the two I prefer Bastion, but I would rather do Bear God.
So I'm making a third option with Bear God, so people can choose one or two between Bear God, Bastion or Ripples.

[X] Plan Step by Step

I have been informed that plan already exists.

[X] Plan A Goddamn Flying Bear
-[X] Professional: Survey the Wall
-[X] Professional: Hou Zhuang's Gift 3
-[X] Personal: Idols and Ancestors
-[X] Personal: Sea of Dreams
-[X] Cultivation: Frozen Soul Serenade Successor Creation
-[X] Cultivation: The Laughing Wind (6/3, Shattered Gaol)
-[X] Cultivation: Bear God's Fury (6/3, sites irrelevant)

[X] Plan Chilly Winds of Change
-[X] Professional: Survey the Wall
-[X] Professional: Hou Zhuang's Gift 3
-[X] Personal: Idols and Ancestors
-[X] Personal: Sea of Dreams
-[X] Cultivation: Frozen Soul Serenade Successor Creation
-[X] Cultivation: The Laughing Wind (6/3, Shattered Gaol)
-[X] Cultivation: Raising the Bastion (6/5, Greater Argent Vent + Argent Domain)

I'm keeping my Soul of Ice votes, though.

[X] Plan Cold Wisdom
[X]Plan: Roots Remain Strong During Winter
[X] Plan Finishing Touch and new Opportunities
[X]Plan: Cold Winds
[X]Plan: Strong Foundations

Doramas said:

[X] Plan A Goddamn Flying Bear
-[X] Professional: Survey the Wall
-[X] Professional: Hou Zhuang's Gift 3
-[X] Personal: Idols and Ancestors
-[X] Personal: Sea of Dreams
-[X] Cultivation: Frozen Soul Serenade Successor Creation
-[X] Cultivation: The Laughing Wind (6/3, Shattered Gaol)
-[X] Cultivation: Bear God's Fury (6/3, sites irrelevant)

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This already exists... ahahahaha

Juli Freixi said:

[X] Plan Step by Step
-[X] [Professional] Survey the Wall
-[X] [Professional] Hou Zhuang's Gift 3 of 3
-[X] [Personal] Idols and Ancestors
-[X] [Personal] Sea of Dreams
-[X] [Cultivation] The Laughing Wind (7/3, Shattered Gaol)
-[X] [Cultivation] Frozen Soul Serenade Successor Creation
-[X] [Cultivation] Bear God's Fury (6/3, sites irrelevant)

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Btw...

[X] Plan Chilly Winds of Change
[X] Plan Step by Step
[X] Plan Frozen Tree

Look, at the end of the day, I just don't feel Raising the Bastion fits into the narrative we're looking at with the other actions.

It's primary purpose exists as an effect to protect your comrades from the incidental effects of a powerful Spirit's presence and Domain. This is a good thing! We do want it! But... Not right now, when it'd have to be clumsily crowbarred into the narrative because it doesn't play nice with anything else we're doing this turn.

Consider what we have here, roughly three primary threads of Narrative going through this turn.

1) The Political issues, as we head to the embassy site and work out any kinks that have emerged in its development. This is primarily political and diplomatic in nature, but more importantly, it's also overwatched by our elders, because this is a matter of Some Importance backed by the Duchess. There are not going to be local spirits who could disrupt things when the Crucible has recently done a pass around here. This is likely also going to include Hou Zhuang's Gift in the leadup to this event, as part of our job is managing the reaction to all of this.

2) Our Adventures and Antics of the turn. At present, this is our Dream Adventure with Xuan Shi, but it also includes the final step of our Fief survey, where we discover what's at the 300 breakpoint. Notably, none of the breakpoints so far have speedwalked us into a dangerous area, because Ling Qi is not stupid, just like Thunder Mountain, a place with potentially hostile high level Spirits is going to be noted and avoided in general. If we're very lucky, our final site will give us our regional Moon elemental site, and might be able to segue cleanly into the Dream Adventure--though this is admittedly speculation.

3) Our visit to Zeqing's peak and the development of FSS+, which is likely going to add into a retrospective of the events that have taken us this far and where we're still going.

Now, with all that said and done? How does Raising the Bastion fit into these primary narrative threads?

It really, really doesn't, unless you stretch the definition so far you can see daylight out of it. "It'll protect us from Kongyou playing fuckfuck games!" Except no it won't, because Raising the Bastion provides no defense against deliberate malice. "We might need it to negotiate at our final breakpoint!" Except so far, our company has shown a lot of sanity and not just charged willy nilly into a lava cave because we don't believe convection exists and we want the shinies, any Actively Hostile region is going to be marked as Dangerous and not immediately delved into anyway--because against, Raising the Bastion only works against environmental and incidental emanations, and is powerless against Active Malice.

Ripples at least ties in with the meditations on cause and effect we've seen so far, how the actions of one individual can spiral outwards far beyond the point of action. That we're tying this in with an arc that deliberately meditates on this is just an added bonus, and we'd have a hard time finding something better in the foreseeable future.

Zeqing was the sort of spirit that Bastion is designed to protect us from right up until she decided not to be. In a very real way, her last act was making herself a bastion of exactly that sort against herself. Drawing lessons from her death and choices that protect people from the unintentional wrath of powerful spirits is honestly pretty on theme.

Now, I actually didn't vote for that plan, but saying that it doesn't play into the thematic elements surrounding Zeqing's death is just not true.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:

Zeqing was the sort of spirit that Bastion is designed to protect us from right up until she decided not to be. In a very real way, her last act was making herself a bastion of exactly that sort against herself. Drawing lessons from her death and choices that protect people from the unintentional wrath of powerful spirits is honestly pretty on theme.

Now, I actually didn't vote for that plan, but saying that it doesn't play into the thematic elements surrounding Zeqing's death is just not true.

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That's a very large and tortured stretch, she didn't make a bastion, she just chose to destroy herself rather than destroy other things.

Alectai said:

That's a very large and tortured stretch, she didn't make a bastion, she just chose to destroy herself rather than destroy other things.

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It's a stretch to say she did it literally, but at this point all arts are metaphors, and the metaphor stands.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:

It's a stretch to say she did it literally, but at this point all arts are metaphors, and the metaphor stands.

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Anything can become a metaphor if you stretch it enough, that doesn't make it a good one

Alectai said:

Anything can become a metaphor if you stretch it enough, that doesn't make it a good one

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Sure, killing yourself to avoid harming people unintentionally is a pretty on-point metaphor for protecting people from unintentional harm, though.

This makes the most sense to me right now.
[X] Plan Wherein Lies Meaning

I don't see why Bastion doesn't fit in the narrative of finishing the survey of the fief.
It's not like we need to dive head first in any dangerous environment we find, rigth?

In any case, if we are talking about narrative cohesion, continuing with BKSD after the Weilu party makes more sense than doing Ripples when we aren't even with Meizhen.

[X] Plan Chilly Roots of Bastion
-[X] Professional: Root Inroads
-[X] Professional: Hou Zhuang's Gift 3
-[X] Personal: Idols and Ancestors
-[X] Personal: Sea of Dreams
-[X] Cultivation: Frozen Soul Serenade Successor Creation
-[X] Cultivation: The Laughing Wind (6/3, Shattered Gaol)
-[X] Cultivation: Raising the Bastion (6/5, Greater Argent Vent + Argent Domain)

I like chilly winds of change, but would rather put off the survey action. Nothing else we are doing this turn involves the fief. Also learning about the interests of the Xia and Bian would be good before we do major politics. While knowing about the final thing in our fief will help for long term planning, short term we won't be able to develop any of those things for many turns. Probably too late for another plan to get up there, but better late than never.

Also on the bastion discussion: for me it was never about dealing with Kongyou, but about dealing with other possibly higher realm spirits we encounter in the dream. It will also be useful for the journey to the summit location. But if it doesn't fit in as a narrative beat, then I'm pretty sure it just won't be one. It can just be something Ling Qi mentions off hand, then we properly see it in action next turn or later when we are doing stuff with it. I'd just rather have our protection art BEFORE we need it.

[X] Plan Chilly Winds of Change
Keeping my vote here because it's a tight race.

[] Plan Wherein Lies Roots
-[] [Professional] Root Inroads
-[] [Professional] Hou Zhuang's Gift 3 of 3
-[] [Personal] Idols and Ancestors
-[] [Personal] Sea of Dreams
-[] [Cultivation] We Are But Ripples (Greater Argent Vent + Argent Domain) (6/3)
-[] [Cultivation] The Laughing Wind (Shattered Gaol) (7/3)
-[] [Cultivation] Frozen Soul Serenade Successor Creation

An alternative Wherein that trades survey for roots, for similar reasons.

Alectai said:

Look, at the end of the day, I just don't feel Raising the Bastion fits into the narrative we're looking at with the other actions.

It's primary purpose exists as an effect to protect your comrades from the incidental effects of a powerful Spirit's presence and Domain. This is a good thing! We do want it! But... Not right now, when it'd have to be clumsily crowbarred into the narrative because it doesn't play nice with anything else we're doing this turn.

Consider what we have here, roughly three primary threads of Narrative going through this turn.

1) The Political issues, as we head to the embassy site and work out any kinks that have emerged in its development. This is primarily political and diplomatic in nature, but more importantly, it's also overwatched by our elders, because this is a matter of Some Importance backed by the Duchess. There are not going to be local spirits who could disrupt things when the Crucible has recently done a pass around here. This is likely also going to include Hou Zhuang's Gift in the leadup to this event, as part of our job is managing the reaction to all of this.

2) Our Adventures and Antics of the turn. At present, this is our Dream Adventure with Xuan Shi, but it also includes the final step of our Fief survey, where we discover what's at the 300 breakpoint. Notably, none of the breakpoints so far have speedwalked us into a dangerous area, because Ling Qi is not stupid, just like Thunder Mountain, a place with potentially hostile high level Spirits is going to be noted and avoided in general. If we're very lucky, our final site will give us our regional Moon elemental site, and might be able to segue cleanly into the Dream Adventure--though this is admittedly speculation.

3) Our visit to Zeqing's peak and the development of FSS+, which is likely going to add into a retrospective of the events that have taken us this far and where we're still going.

Now, with all that said and done? How does Raising the Bastion fit into these primary narrative threads?

It really, really doesn't, unless you stretch the definition so far you can see daylight out of it. "It'll protect us from Kongyou playing fuckfuck games!" Except no it won't, because Raising the Bastion provides no defense against deliberate malice. "We might need it to negotiate at our final breakpoint!" Except so far, our company has shown a lot of sanity and not just charged willy nilly into a lava cave because we don't believe convection exists and we want the shinies, any Actively Hostile region is going to be marked as Dangerous and not immediately delved into anyway--because against, Raising the Bastion only works against environmental and incidental emanations, and is powerless against Active Malice.

Ripples at least ties in with the meditations on cause and effect we've seen so far, how the actions of one individual can spiral outwards far beyond the point of action. That we're tying this in with an arc that deliberately meditates on this is just an added bonus, and we'd have a hard time finding something better in the foreseeable future.

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Hmm. While I can see your point, I disagree that Bastion doesn't work narratively.

• I agree that Bastion doesn't have a strong tie to the political narrative this turn, even though when I voted for it, I didn't really consider it working for that. But I also don't really see it working for Ripples too, so meh. But if Bastion HAD to work for political stuff, then its tie to MoSS works best imo, since this art is literally about understanding and communication. Like, whenever LQ does a project, she always references the art it's connected to, so if you're looking for any with the political stuff so it still works

• I completely disagree about Bastion not affecting our antics. Each time we've gone to the survey, the sites have gotten more and more dangerous. First Veins of Earrth and Saline Grotto, both low level with no dangers. Then Thunderhoof Mountain, with something so far above us (a place with a high chance of Indigo/Violet spirits) that it's pure, distilled stupidity to approach. Then Cathedral of Winds, thr Beavers, and the Labyrinth, which are stuff we can that bring a marginal bit of danger. Keep note that for the Labyrinth, our Sixth realm minder actually had to go check it out and confirm if we can actually clear it by ourselves. So an art that focuses on clearing environmental dangers completely fits.

• For Sea of Dreams, I've always argued that MoSS bits on negotiation and spirit understanding with Xuan Shi and Kongyou. After some discussions on Discord, it's been highlighted that using Bastion for that is kinda stretching the meaning since it's one line in the description and since well, Kongyou is a people spirit instead of an environmental AoE spirit. Now, I can understand that. But that's ignoring that the environmental negation is only the MECHANICAL effect on the art, not what the art's meditations are focused on.

The meditations on helping spirits understand the harm they do and mitigating the effects of said harm are the actual philosophical aspects that creates that mechanical effect of the art, just like like our thoughts on BKSD, TREE, and Community added the buffs as a mechanical aspect. So, it can still work with the Kongyou and Xuan Shi relationship angle. And not in the "It'll protect us from Kongyou playing fuckfuck games!" way. Because ultimately, it's about how spirits can casually act cruelly because of their fixed Ways and helping them understand their actions

Like, you can maybe say that Kongyou knows exactly what they were doing in the Dream, even though they describe it as playing a game. But then you can also argue that Kongyou is a new bound muse who doesn't really understand a lot of things like humans do, like how, at first, Six didn't understand exactly how our emotions work or what death is and how it feels like, and a bunch of other small things. So...something that focuses on helping spirits understand the harm they cause works really well with helping a friend work with a nightmare spirit, or watching a friend try and work with a nightmare spirit.

But if we're ONLY focused on the mechanical bit of the art, it can still help against any dangers we face helps. I mean, we literally run into a Cyan+ spirit on our last Dream adventure.

• I don't really see Bastion working with FSS+, but then again, I don't really see Ripples affecting FSS+ too. FSS+ is already narratively packed. It has a personal action tied to it. It has bonues from Jaromila and the Hui arts added to it. We have specific things to think about. Mainly, our insight. The only thing I can see tinging things so far is the direction of our Way and bringing understanding and connecting people, and Bastion and MoSS with that thread more than Ripples and SNR.

PS: I typed this all on my phone again and I'm too tired rn to read through, so kindly ignore any mispellings you see, or maybe bring them to my attention.

[X] Plan Chilly Winds of Change

Ripples only gives us meditation of the art.... which isn't bad, but isn't worth a separate action imo.... no other of our arts has a similar action after all.
And, as it was said multiple times both here and in Discord, its only draw is the chance (sure, 70% with argent went and omake bonus) to nab a concept we cant develop, even to level 1, so it would be just food for our other concepts.... from which we already have plenty and and some that would be better to be developed before it is eaten by another concept.
I would rather go for depths to see what the damn trait the art provides do or to extend our defenses before going for ripples.

Since the difference between the top two leading plans (Chilly Winds of Change and Wherein Lies Meaning) is a single action, let's take a look at both of them in the context of the other available actions:

Starting off with Raise the Bastion (for full disclosure, this is the one I'm not in favour of):

Raising the Bastion: In the harsh south, under the gaze of Bleak Skies yearning, you received a taste of the casual cruelty which spirits unbound and uncaring of man may display. In the lessons of the Bastion's Melody, you find the lessons needed to mitigate their harm, and even bring understanding of their doings to spirits most inhuman. Alters the Bastion's Melody Art, giving a chance to negate damaging environmental traits of higher spirits. Advances the Community and Protection projects by one step.

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This action is about bridging the gap between powerful spirits that don't understand humans, and mitigating the detrimental effects that they cause on mortals and cultivators simply by following their nature. While this super useful, and certainly something we want to take in the near future, I'm of the opinion that, in the context of the rest of the plan, it's a bit disjointed. Let me explain why.

In general, when making plans we want to take cultivation actions that can be incorporated by Yrs into the overall narrative structure of the turn, or vice versa with personal/professional actions. This means that cultivation can be woven naturally into the arc structure, rather than demanding its own scene (or scenes) that often end up sticking out like a sore thumb in the greater flow of the turn.

For narrative coherency, Raise the Bastion really wants to be taken with actions where we know that we'll be in the presence of and interacting with high realm environmental spirits, like the Piper in Cathedral of Winds, or the mistress of the glacier and the infection present in the Starlit Labyrinth. The arc structure of this is going to broadly be split into

• The creation of FSS+ - heavy philosophical introspection on the nature of Beginnings, Endings, Isolation and the development of Ling Qi and Hanyi since Zeqing's death.
• A delve into the Liminal with Xuan Shi - the primary antagonist here is likely going to be Kongyou, a spirit intimately familiar with humans and their foibles, with themes of Isolation, Connection, and the search for meaning, all of which are persistent in the overall Xuan Shi plotline.
• Political shenanigans with Shu Yue, teaching Ling Qi to examine and interpret negative connections and their impact on society.
• The final Survey action with Xia Lin/Lao Keung.

The only place where Bastion might naturally fit is the survey action, which is honestly the least important of the lot for the overall tone and themes of the turn. It might come up tangentially in the Xuan Shi adventure, but it's pretty forced and wouldn't do anything about Kongyou, who is precisely the wrong kind of spirit and completely out of its scope. It's not particularly relevant for Zeqing either, as it's about bridging the gap between powerful wild spirits divorced from the human perspective. Zeqing was a spirit was incredibly socialised (hence why she was allowed to stay within the sect), and able to grow and act beyond her base nature because of it - spirits of her type (as seen with BSY) shouldn't be able to restrain or deny themselves like she did.

Now, let's look at We Are But Ripples:

We are but Ripples: In waters deep, under skies far, we bear witness to our own crushing smallness. Where then does meaning rise, in the infinite dark? Advances Isolation and Mystery Projects one step. 40% Chance of acquiring Void concept for your Domain.(0/3)

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and a relevant snip from the art text of SNR:

In the Thousand Lakes, the infinite depth of the night sky is reflected from one thousand mirrors, displaying infinite emptiness extending beyond the heavens and into the depths of the earth.

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Lacking any experience with Lake Hei itself, Ling Qi is likely to turn to the infinite expanse that she does know - the empty nothingness between the stars, that final End to which all things will eventually return and the ultimate expression of Isolation. Recall back to one of our earlier conversations with Zeqing:

"All things End," Ling Qi shivered, the final word echoing in her ear like the ringing of a temple gong, layers of meaning skipping across her thoughts. "Heat, warmth, lives, cities, empires, rivers and mountains; none are eternal. The sun and the moon, the heavens and the earth, these things too shall End in time," Zeqing's voice chilled her, and spoke as if from the bottom of a deep pit. "And when the Heavens lie dark and the earth crumbles, even the End will cease. What lies beyond is unknowable."

Ling Qi let out a breath of relief as her dance came to a stop, and the chill faded. "Thank you for answering, teacher."

"You do not understand, my words cannot express the truth without dealing you great harm," Zeqing said as the wind died and her human form spun into existence from snow and wind, floating serenely a few meters from where Ling Qi stood. "But that is fine, you are too young for such understanding yet."

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Our final FSS insight was a rejection of this - not of its existence, but of it's importance. More broadly, Ling Qi defines herself by and in opposition to Isolation, inflicting it unto her enemies and shielding her allies from it. Meditations on where meaning arises in the face of this final End is therefore highly relevant to FSS+ (see, for example, our understanding of Endings - 'All things end in time, it is the journey to ending that has meaning'). There is also a certain resonance with Xuan Shi here - much of his character arc has been defined by Isolation, and his search for meaning. It's precisely this which Kongyou is exploiting, as a spirit of nightmare and discord, seeking to drive him to a noble yet tragic end.

The Void concept, then, is important as a counterpoint, the backdrop against which much of her understanding and development is contrasted. As an artist and musician, Ling Qi acts in direct defiance of Nothingness, filling the void via acts of creation - what I suspect will happen here is insight via antithesis, which is not something that has been explored all too much yet. As a side note, there was also this interesting little titbit revealed in our trip south:

"There are bodiless demons that may take a man's mind in the south," Ilsur said quietly. "They seem rare, but I gather this was not always so. Their possession makes even weak beasts into terrors. They may make men do terrible things in the dark of winter, even to their own kin. And it is said that the Crone does not take sacrifice idly, but to fuel her war with the malice that lies between the stars which births the demons."

"You mean of the stars, I presume," Ling Qi said.

"I do not. The stars are fickle and may be cruel or kind as they wish. It is the darkness between from which malice comes."

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Which sounds both incredibly relevant here, and also super interesting.


All in all, it's my opinion that Raise the Bastion is at best tangential and at worst a rather awkward fit in the overall narrative of the turn, and We Are But Ripples is a far more natural fit.

[X] Plan Wherein Lies Meaning

Alectai said:

Now, with all that said and done? How does Raising the Bastion fit into these primary narrative threads?

It really, really doesn't, unless you stretch the definition so far you can see daylight out of it. "It'll protect us from Kongyou playing fuckfuck games!" Except no it won't, because Raising the Bastion provides no defense against deliberate malice. "We might need it to negotiate at our final breakpoint!" Except so far, our company has shown a lot of sanity and not just charged willy nilly into a lava cave because we don't believe convection exists and we want the shinies, any Actively Hostile region is going to be marked as Dangerous and not immediately delved into anyway--because against, Raising the Bastion only works against environmental and incidental emanations, and is powerless against Active Malice.

Ripples at least ties in with the meditations on cause and effect we've seen so far, how the actions of one individual can spiral outwards far beyond the point of action. That we're tying this in with an arc that deliberately meditates on this is just an added bonus, and we'd have a hard time finding something better in the foreseeable future.

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That's a fair critique of the limitations of Bastion yeah. There are potential applications for it in our adventures, but in practice if those opportunities were to occur I'd expect them to be more deliberate actions by us to go out and engage with specific big spirits. And yeah Bastion has zero relevance to Kongyou here.

At the same time, I'm not really sold by this argument for Ripples? It feels like it's jumping on the name rather than the text - though I acknowledge that we really don't know where it's going to go. Ripples isn't really about causality or connections, it's about isolation. It's about finding meaning, when all else is stripped away. I guess what I wonder is what would give a good opportunity to produce this meditation? We, after all, lack a good Lake Hei to dive into

I'm not sure. In many ways, it feels like a fairly "alone" cultivation action, which could make integration challenging. Otoh, maybe you could get a decent dream ordeal out of it. After all, isolation stuff can also be used to hit Xuan Shi quite well. idk...

yrsillar said:

We are but Ripples: In waters deep, under skies far, we bear witness to our own crushing smallness. Where then does meaning rise, in the infinite dark? Advances Isolation and Mystery Projects one step. 40% Chance of acquiring Void concept for your Domain.(0/3)

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Empere said:

We Are But Ripples grants Ending XP which will level up the concept, and I think having a strong Ending Concept will help with FSS+.

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It doesn't though. It's isolation/mystery. Generally we're hoping/guessing that void is an Ending adjacent concept, but that's not quite the same thing.

[X] Plan Wherein Lies Meaning