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To be clear, I don't expect Boney to answer how this works; though obviously I'd be excited to learn more about the metaphysics, it's possible that I am overthinking things. Mostly I am just trying to start discussion about the question that Boney posed to the thread: how much of a factor is random chance in things (specifically in this case the Lay the foundations), and to what degree can discrete tweaks of it further Mathilde's goals? But, of course, to answer that we need to compare it to how random chance has been tweaked in Mathilde's favor in the past, and it's there that I confess myself kind of stumped. Hopefully someone else has got clearer insight than I do.

Working backwards, we know each character stat to be affiliated with its own set of rolls, e.g martial rolls as we've seen in combat and conflict, learning rolls for magic and scholarship, diplomacy rolls for interpersonal and inter-polity relations, etc. Can we call the Waystone Project a diplomacy project, or a learning project? If the answer to that is yes, then I think it's reasonable to assume the existence of diplomacy rolls and learning rolls in the first foundational act of the Waystone Project, just as other actions affiliated with other stats get their own rolls.

If we do not get diplomacy and learning rolls, then another type of d100 roll would be event rolls that aren't tied to a particular stat, like the Consideration of Suitability or Alkharad's readiness to receive guests, or when we hired loremasters to teach the We:
[Karak Norn: 18]
[Karak Hirn: 94]
In that case, we had the potential for contribution from both Karaks but only one delivered. If Karak Norn had rolled higher and Hirn had rolled lower, perhaps we would've gotten one from each Karak, which implies that there was a sliding scale of DCs in terms of the number they each contributed.

We don't know what the actual system will look like, but I don't see anything that causes me to believe that the Laying the Foundations action is dissimilar to the above. That is to say, if random chance was applicable in the above categories, then there is probably random chance here too.

As food for thought: What examples do we have of actions that didn't have rolls, and are they conceptually similar to Laying the Foundations?
 
To be totally transparent, I do have an ulterior motive. That motive is having Panoramia join us in the magic forest. It doesn't matter if she's directly a part of the Waystone Project or not, although I do think she would be very useful for WEB-MAT. Even if her research project is only adjacent, I'd love to have her along.
 
I was thinking about what @mathymancer said about the Seed and Panoramia, how no one made the case for it so why not do it myself. Here are the reasons why I think we should not just do it, but do it soon:
  1. It allows us to help get Panoramia out of a rut, right now she is just making time. don't get me wrong I do not think her work with the halflings is entirely useless but it is a far cry from the revolutionary work she did in the early days, work she is not even taking credit for. This would be like after Dum Mathilde took a sabatical and spent all her days doing hold defense enhancing. The sooner she is back to putting her imagination and drive to their full use the better.
  2. We can interact with Panoramia in a research action and not just social actions. As well written as those are if Pan only interacts with Mathilde that way, without moving things forward, showing her power and drive she is in danger of becoming the Love Interest TM only relevant to the narrative because Mathilde is in love with her and I think she deserves better than that.
  3. If the Seed is indeed from the Oak of Ages than it is an anti-Chaos talisman which could be immediately useful to the project and it would be quite the feather in our cap to be able to put that on the table during the foundation action. Also there is the liminal aspects part of things, what role does the Oak of Ages and its roots have in the flow of magic in the world?
  4. Last but not least the potential of giant army killing squirrels. Who doesn't love giant army killing squirrels? :V
I don't think Panoramia is in a rut, she has a bunch of ideas for future work and is about to graduate, and we are going to interact with her in a research action this turn when we write the first half of the Windsoak Mushroom book.

And could you maybe not tag me in an argument for the fatherless plan after I've made it clear that taking part in those arguments is stressing me out, including to you personally?
 
I don't think Panoramia is in a rut, she has a bunch of ideas for future work and is about to graduate, and we are going to interact with her in a research action this turn when we write the first half of the Windsoak Mushroom book.

And could you maybe not tag me in an argument for the fatherless plan after I've made it clear that taking part in those arguments is stressing me out, including to you personally?

Ah sorry about that I should have taken the tag out, that is just how I make sure I don't misspell people's names :oops:
 
Also if you voted for a plan that clearly isn't going to pass, maybe consider voting again.
I would like to encourage people who are voting for a minority plan and feel like weighing in on the top two to approval vote, because that helps indicate to what degree minority plans have support. I'm a big believer in approval voting in general, but especially here: if your favorite plan has 5 votes but you want one of the top votes to beat the other one, just vote for both rather than change your vote entirely. This is the sort of thing of which comebacks and vote shifts are made, and it costs nothing.
 
Screw it, I'm putting in a vote for plan: adventure because why not?

[X] Plan: Adventure
-[X] One Overwork Action
-[X] COIN: The Father
-[X] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (Nordlander Haléthan Hedgewise)
-[X] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela).
-[X] WEB-MAT: Hunt an apparition with a member of WEB-MAT (Johann, Red Rider).
-[X] WEB-MAT: MAX: Receive dictation: Windsoak Mushrooms
-[X] Involve yourself in current affairs: Investigate the Iron Orcs of Carcassonne with Egrimm.
-[X] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
-[X] Explore the wonders of the ancient and beautiful city of Tor Lithanel (with Pan).
-[X] KAU: The many legends about the amount of books contained within and under Castle Drakenhof still haunt you. Organize an expedition to mine the ruins for books.
-[X] EIC: Have the Hochlander set up a shadow headquarters for the EIC in the Sunken Palace.
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Coins of Nehekhara's Fifth Dynasty

I think I've counted the number of actions here correctly—five normal actions, 1 free webmat action, 1 overwork action, 1 free library action, and 1 free EIC action (I believe the Serenity action combos with the Max action).

Also an approval vote for the father plan:

[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP
 
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[x] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP
- [x] One Overwork Action
- [x] COIN: The Father
- [x] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
- [x] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
- [x] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (Nordlander Haléthan Hedgewise)
- [x] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Tindomiel)
- [x] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
- [x] Investigate how the Vitae reacts to a power stone.
- [x] EIC: Have the Hochlander set up a shadow headquarters for the EIC in the Sunken Palace.
- [x] KAU: Decide who your library staff will consist of, and go about recruiting them.
- [x] SERENITY: Write a book: Windsoak Mushrooms (1/2)
 
But a book takes up two slots, doesn't it?
Yes, and Max can write two slots worth since he's a paper writing machine.
[ ] MAX: Receive dictation: specify which two papers or one book will be written.
You can finish off the Windsoak Mushroom book with Max using a single action, and your serenity slot is free for an additional paper. I struggle to think what you can put there - my Father and Foundations plan used it to write the Windfall paper, but I know some people want to write that one with Egrimm. So maybe just some old paper, observations on terrain obstacles or something.
 
Yes, and Max can write two slots worth since he's a paper writing machine.

You can finish off the Windsoak Mushroom book with Max using a single action, and your serenity slot is free for an additional paper. I struggle to think what you can put there - my Father and Foundations plan used it to write the Windfall paper, but I know some people want to write that one with Egrimm. So maybe just some old paper, observations on terrain obstacles or something.

Ah, I understand now. I've subbed it out with the 5th dynasty coins paper.
 
So I don't usually keep up with turn plans due to being complicated, but I'm curious about the "Disregard WEBMAT" framework. Isn't it better to use the free Webmat AP if we have the actions for it?

Webmat Max: Receive Dictation (Windsoak Mushrooms)
Webmat Egrimm/Johann: Inspect Kurgan weapons
Webmat: Recruit gyrocopter pilot

That would let us write another paper with the Serenity free action and clear out the backlog faster. The Ghyran nut action in Fatherless plan could be replaced with Kurgan weapons + Receive Dictation.
 
So I don't usually keep up with turn plans due to being complicated, but I'm curious about the "Disregard WEBMAT" framework. Isn't it better to use the free Webmat AP if we have the actions for it?

Webmat Max: Receive Dictation (Windsoak Mushrooms)
Webmat Egrimm/Johann: Inspect Kurgan weapons
Webmat: Recruit gyrocopter pilot

That would let us write another paper with the Serenity free action and clear out the backlog faster. The Ghyran nut action in Fatherless plan could be replaced with Kurgan weapons + Receive Dictation.

Pickle has written a big justification for this which is basically spending an AP on a personal action is better than spending an AP on two WEB-MAT actions (for this specific turn). It's slightly inefficient AP wise, but affords us more flexibility in which actions we can take in return. Normally we need to dedicate some of our personal actions to webmat actions to keep our employees busy, but because they'll be working on the foundations this turn we're free to give them time off and work on our personal actions instead.
 
So I don't usually keep up with turn plans due to being complicated, but I'm curious about the "Disregard WEBMAT" framework. Isn't it better to use the free Webmat AP if we have the actions for it?

Webmat Max: Receive Dictation (Windsoak Mushrooms)
Webmat Egrimm/Johann: Inspect Kurgan weapons
Webmat: Recruit gyrocopter pilot

That would let us write another paper with the Serenity free action and clear out the backlog faster. The Ghyran nut action in Fatherless plan could be replaced with Kurgan weapons + Receive Dictation.
the lay foundations action counts as working with all the webmat wizards, so we dont have to worry about the timers for them this turn. Thus the plan is to get some of the things that we can only do ourselves out of the way this turn
 
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that needs to be used to actually perform the dictation to max.
It used to be the case that an additional dictation action was required when Max was writing paper - it was Max: Recieve Dictation and Mathilde: Dictate or something of the sort - but this was changed with WEB-MAT because WEB-MAT actions are done with Mathilde so there isn't a need for a seperate dictation action taken by Mathilde:
WEB-MAT actions are performed by Mathilde alongside that person when possible, such as studying something alongside that person, cowriting a paper together, one teaching the other, both of them learning something new, et cetera.
There is a WoG on the dictation issue specifically, but I'm off to bed so someone else will have to find it.
 
Pickle has written a big justification for this which is basically spending an AP on a personal action is better than spending an AP on two WEB-MAT actions (for this specific turn). It's slightly inefficient AP wise, but affords us more flexibility in which actions we can take in return. Normally we need to dedicate some of our personal actions to webmat actions to keep our employees busy, but because they'll be working on the foundations this turn we're free to give them time off and work on our personal actions instead.
the lay foundations action counts as working with all the webmat wizards, so we dont have to worry about the timers for them this turn. Thus the plan is to get some of the things that we can only do ourselves out of the way this turn
But it seems like the only difference in actions is the Ghyran nut research? It's a personal action for studying an artefact, so it's similar to inspecting Kurgan weapons, but we could fit a Max dictation alongside Kurgan weapons.

Clearing the backlog faster with 2 webmat actions offers more flexibility than spending a personal action studying the ghyran nut, it seems to me?
 
But it seems like the only difference in actions is the Ghyran nut research? It's a personal action for studying an artefact, so it's similar to inspecting Kurgan weapons, but we could fit a Max dictation alongside Kurgan weapons.

Clearing the backlog faster with 2 webmat actions offers more flexibility than spending a personal action studying the ghyran nut, it seems to me?
We can't use WEB-MAT to study the nut, and turns on which we have space to do research without WEB-MAT are scarce. You can find a more in-depth explanation by going to the tally, then clicking on picklepikkl's name under the top plan, which will send you to the plan vote where he lays out all the justifications for each choice.
 
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But it seems like the only difference in actions is the Ghyran nut research? It's a personal action for studying an artefact, so it's similar to inspecting Kurgan weapons, but we could fit a Max dictation alongside Kurgan weapons.

Clearing the backlog faster with 2 webmat actions offers more flexibility than spending a personal action studying the ghyran nut, it seems to me?
You're correct that two webmat actions would allow for things to be done faster. The question is what things those are, and how important they are. The Ghyran nut is something that a lot of people have been excited about studying with Panoramia ever since we bought it, but we can't use WEB-MAT actions to study it with her because she's not in WEB-MAT (and is unlikely to be recruited any time soon, for action efficiency reasons). So if we want to study it with her, we need a personal action. Furthermore, the nut is very likely a stolen acorn of one of Athel Loren's most magical trees, and so I expect it to be a very interesting topic of research. We could use a WEB-MAT action to study it, but by doing so we lose both the personal benefits of doing a project with Panoramia and the material benefits -- I think we'd get a lot more out of studying it with the help of someone who actually uses Ghyran than with Chamon or Hysh-wielders!

In contrast, the Kurgan artifacts just aren't something I find very interesting. Maybe we'll get an opportunity to donate them? But it's not like any of the Kurgan that we fought in the encampment wielded particularly notable weapons that stood out to us at the time. My expectation is that that action will not yield significant dividends.

So, to summarize, the tradeoff between those specific actions in the Fatherless variant is "advancing the study of something inherently significant with the aid of the character who is both best-equipped to help us and our girlfriend" vs. "checking two things off the to-do list." Even if two things off the to-do list is more than one thing, I'd prefer to knock out one really good thing over two things of lesser significance if the opportunity presents itself.
 
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