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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Briefvoice said:
Yes, that is exactly what I think. If you think differently, that is a difference of opinion not a "fallacy".



It makes sense to me. There's little attention now, but people have memories. If this amounts to anything, "how it started" will be a story. "Who was in the room" will be remembered. I don't want the story to be that the Hedgewise were sitting across from Thorek and representatives from the Light College and Jade College and the Grey Colleges.

Bringing them in later and it's easier not to make a big deal out of it. Though we can also figure out if we even need them first. If things seem to be going well, maybe we'll have better things to do.



I think we can show them "respect" without bringing them into Lay the Foundations, if they end up being necessary at all.
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Geez, why do you hate the Hedgewise? I mean, we already have a Hag Witch, another old and well-established non-College tradition which we can't explain away using the "Damsels and Ice Witches are clergy" excuse at the table. The only difference is that Kislev doesn't persecute them the way the Empire does due to prejudice.
 
Briefvoice said:
I think we can show them "respect" without bringing them into Lay the Foundations, if they end up being necessary at all.
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I agree, but I also think the danger of including them early is also very small. The four Colleges involved are the Empire's only notable source of information on this project. Knowledge of the Hedgewise's involvement can be spun in whatever manner the Colleges see fit to dress it up as.
 
IMO what it comes down to is the questions of 'why do you think the colleges have a near-monopoly on sanctioned magic?' If the other imperial mages involved think that this is because 'only the Teclisian way is right and everything else is madness' well then then would not work with the Hag either so we had best find out sooner or later. If on the other hand they think the monopoly as a political thing, an artifact of history and of the dedication of the Colleges to the Empire then that is certainly a reaason not to present the Hedgeewise as legitimate in public and in the Empire... but this is about as far from public as you can get.
 
I think the fact that including the Hedgewise in the Foundations could have political implications regarding the Hedgewise's relationship to the Empire/The Colleges is a good point.

It also happens to be a point that makes me want to include them on the Foundations more.

I'm a big fan of diversity and am a believer in the idea that bringing together different perspectives results in greater wisdom, and so I'm not an especially big fan of the Empire's "any way that isn't our way is punishable by death" policy regarding magic users. It's, yknow, a tad horrifying, really.

I like it when people have permission to exist.
 
Staff Notice - Rule 2 - 'Gentlying pushing a cultural group out of existence' is a polite euphemism for genocide.
DragonParadox said:
IMO what it comes down to is the questions of 'why do you think the colleges have a near-monopoly on sanctioned magic?' If the other imperial mages involved think that this is because 'only the Teclisian way is right and everything else is madness' well then then would not work with the Hag either so we had best find out sooner or later. If on the other hand they think the monopoly as a political thing, an artifact of history and of the dedication of the Colleges to the Empire then that is certainly a reaason not to present the Hedgeewise as legitimate in public and in the Empire... but this is about as far from public as you can get.
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Actually, neither one is my answer if the question is why should the colleges have a near-monopoly on sanctioned magic rather than why do they have a monopoly.

It might not be that only the Teclisian way is right in a theory sense, but that doesn't mean that it's only a matter of politics. What the colleges have is not "the most right" theory but a well organized training program that is very good at steering students away from dark magic and monitoring for anyone going in that direction. They have auditing, accountability, etc, and they hunt down their mistakes literally religiously. The Hedgewise have what we know is a very murky organization that, partially because they are illegal, cannot possibly have that level of oversight. It's difficult to tell whether a Hedgewise is acting squirrelly because them doing magic is illegal and they have to hide their magic or because they're up to their ears in dark magic... probably even for other Hedgewise.

What the magical traditions in Kislev do... (throws up hands) well that's up to Kislev, but it's notable that both the Ice Witches and the Hag Witches appear in some sense answerable to political authority. The Tsar says come and they come. That's neither here nor there, though, that's Kislev's business.

Now does that have anything to do with inviting them into a Waystone project in Laurelorn? Well, only secondarily. Like I said, the elves don't care. But I think word gets out, and if other wizards complain that "Hey, this is giving this group of rogue magic users political legitimacy, did you have to do that?" then they have a good case. Not just a "this could cause trouble for Mathilde" sense, but a legitimately good case that it's better to keep low level pressure on and encourage people discovering magic to come on over to the Colleges instead of having their grandma in the Hedgewise tutor them. So yeah.

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LadyLynn said:
I think the fact that including the Hedgewise in the Foundations could have political implications regarding the Hedgewise's relationship to the Empire/The Colleges is a good point.

It also happens to be a point that makes me want to include them on the Foundations more.

I'm a big fan of diversity and am a believer in the idea that bringing together different perspectives results in greater wisdom, and so I'm not an especially big fan of the Empire's "any way that isn't our way is punishable by death" policy regarding magic users. It's, yknow, a tad horrifying, really.

I like it when people have permission to exist.
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So yeah, I disagree with you and I think the Hedgewise are bad and should eventually be pushed gently out of existence, preferable in the process helping incorporate any of their traditions worth saving into the Grey College.

Magic is dangerous and genuinely corrupting and it's not just a matter of culture or traditions being preserved.
 
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Briefvoice said:
Actually, neither one is my answer if the question is why should the colleges have a near-monopoly on sanctioned magic rather than why do they have a monopoly.

It might not be that only the Teclisian way is right in a theory sense, but that doesn't mean that it's only a matter of politics. What the colleges have is not "the most right" theory but a well organized training program that is very good at steering students away from dark magic and monitoring for anyone going in that direction. They have auditing, accountability, etc, and they hunt down their mistakes literally religiously. The Hedgewise have what we know is a very murky organization that, partially because they are illegal, cannot possibly have that level of oversight. It's difficult to tell whether a Hedgewise is acting squirrelly because them doing magic is illegal and they have to hide their magic or because they're up to their ears in dark magic... probably even for other Hedgewise.

What the magical traditions in Kislev do... (throws up hands) well that's up to Kislev, but it's notable that both the Ice Witches and the Hag Witches appear in some sense answerable to political authority. The Tsar says come and they come. That's neither here nor there, though, that's Kislev's business.

Now does that have anything to do with inviting them into a Waystone project in Laurelorn? Well, only secondarily. Like I said, the elves don't care. But I think word gets out, and if other wizards complain that "Hey, this is giving this group of rogue magic users political legitimacy, did you have to do that?" then they have a good case. Not just a "this could cause trouble for Mathilde" sense, but a legitimately good case that it's better to keep low level pressure on and encourage people discovering magic to come on over to the Colleges instead of having their grandma in the Hedgewise tutor them. So yeah.

EDIT:



So yeah, I disagree with you and I think the Hedgewise are bad and should eventually be pushed gently out of existence, preferable in the process helping incorporate any of their traditions worth saving into the Grey College.

Magic is dangerous and genuinely corrupting and it's not just a matter of culture or traditions being preserved.
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I mean OK, let's say the Lights just as an example complain... who are they gong to complain to? If they complain to Algard he will tell them to mind their own business, no doubt politely. So that leaves the Emperor... how do we think he will take being told about the spooky shifty eizards doing something shifty off Imperial territory that might maybe indicate that they are not being entirely diligent in dealing with that are basically petty rural spellcasters? Is he going to go on a witch hunt? Is he going to tell the templars of Sigmar?

I am just not seeing it, this is not as big as thing as you think IMO, it is not touching the bad magic, it is just not focusing on the mostly harmless rural wizards who have been these since before the time of Sigmar. I think we are fine as far as the chain of command is concerned here.
 
Briefvoice said:
Actually, neither one is my answer if the question is why should the colleges have a near-monopoly on sanctioned magic rather than why do they have a monopoly.

It might not be that only the Teclisian way is right in a theory sense, but that doesn't mean that it's only a matter of politics. What the colleges have is not "the most right" theory but a well organized training program that is very good at steering students away from dark magic and monitoring for anyone going in that direction. They have auditing, accountability, etc, and they hunt down their mistakes literally religiously. The Hedgewise have what we know is a very murky organization that, partially because they are illegal, cannot possibly have that level of oversight. It's difficult to tell whether a Hedgewise is acting squirrelly because them doing magic is illegal and they have to hide their magic or because they're up to their ears in dark magic... probably even for other Hedgewise.

What the magical traditions in Kislev do... (throws up hands) well that's up to Kislev, but it's notable that both the Ice Witches and the Hag Witches appear in some sense answerable to political authority. The Tsar says come and they come. That's neither here nor there, though, that's Kislev's business.

Now does that have anything to do with inviting them into a Waystone project in Laurelorn? Well, only secondarily. Like I said, the elves don't care. But I think word gets out, and if other wizards complain that "Hey, this is giving this group of rogue magic users political legitimacy, did you have to do that?" then they have a good case. Not just a "this could cause trouble for Mathilde" sense, but a legitimately good case that it's better to keep low level pressure on and encourage people discovering magic to come on over to the Colleges instead of having their grandma in the Hedgewise tutor them. So yeah.
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"You can't tell whether they're being secretive because they don't want to die or because they're evil" isn't really a good justification for killing people, I think.
Briefvoice said:
So yeah, I disagree with you and I think the Hedgewise are bad and should eventually be pushed gently out of existence, preferable in the process helping incorporate any of their traditions worth saving into the Grey College.

Magic is dangerous and genuinely corrupting and it's not just a matter of culture or traditions being preserved.
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I also don't think there's a way to "gently push" a culture "out of existence". The way the Hedgewise are being treated right now certainly isn't gentle.

In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this just a polite euphemism for genocide?
 
I think nearly the entire college leadership would have lived through the ban and siege of the colleges. I can see how the other orders might baulk at officially working with unsanctioned magic users, which puts them on the wrong side of the articles of magic.
 
picklepikkl said:
Happened a while ago:
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Okay mostly want to talk Spiders. So that snippet was we going "I guess our silk is worth twice it's weight in protein???" which to me implies a rather rudimentary understanding of trade. And also mostly focusing on getting sustenance. Unless they're buying books by the pound and eating them, I feel them buying books represents a significant forward leap in general economic understanding which is cool!
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Over 24 hours later, I have finally caught up with the thread. I'm probably far too late now, but I wanted to ask anyone planning to use the Father to use a Library action to reach out to the Verenans in some capacity.

Verena's not the most likely candidate - she's supposed to be Shallya's mother. But that doesn't necessarily rule her out entirely. Time is funky in the Realm of Chaos (consider the competing, mutually exclusive timelines of Gods we've come across), and if you told me that a God ended up as their own grandparent I might believe it. There's also the fact that the entire Daughter hunt is predicated on the concealment of family ties; covering up the truth with a deception seems entirely plausible.

It's a bit of a long shot, but it's one that's essentially free to test, if we reorder our plans to go for a Verenan library on the turn we use the Father, which seems like a no-brainer to me.
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Many of the leading plans do have us doing the KAU action to recruit a staff, at the same time as having the Father side of the coin activated. It might happen that we try to recruit Verenans with the coin set to Father; if Verena's somehow Shallya's daughter, then we might find out that way.
Briefvoice said:
It makes sense to me. There's little attention now, but people have memories. If this amounts to anything, "how it started" will be a story. "Who was in the room" will be remembered. I don't want the story to be that the Hedgewise were sitting across from Thorek and representatives from the Light College and Jade College and the Grey Colleges.
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On the contrary, I think that sounds wonderful. I'm going to echo @LadyLynn's post above in saying that more legitimacy for the Hedgewise would be a great thing. Their current persecution is a (political) injustice, and certainly counterproductive in the worst ways. This just makes we want to recruit them for the Foundations action even more now.
 
If we activate Father, could we visit Morr and be like yo gramps gimme some juice on the fam?

Also, not sure if this was already discussed, but for a god of ambiguity and mysteries, funny how Ranald's identity is so rarely in question.

Boney said:
You serve the Trickster, yha?
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Boney said:
"She serves the Dancer," Deathfang says distractedly.
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Rhyans and Ishaites and Earthmotherists are bickering, gods of war are a dime a dozen but there's usually only the one sneaky sneakster to go around. For a god that "didn't use to fight other gods," as Heidi claimed, I get the feeling that there are many more than just the Widow's siblings that ran into a terminal string of bad luck.

DragonParadox said:
I mean OK, let's say the Lights just as an example complain... who are they gong to complain to?
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Nordland EC, who is pressuring various institutions to denounce Middenland and would be ecstatic to scapegoat a group of traitors as a warning and example.
 
Given the Colleges seem to be completely resigned to not attempting to innovate in such a manner so as to be able to realistically expand out of their original paradigm, I see no reason to strangle alternate paradigms so long as they work. If we're not going to systematically understand magic outside personal paradigms and master/apprentice paradigms that very occasionally accidentally create something usable by other people, we might as well maximize the amount of spaghetti we're throwing at the wall. Hopefully, if enough humans flail at enough typewriters, we can recreate most of the library of the Tower of Hoeth eventually.

The problem is that they need safety standards, knowledge sharing agreements and legalization, and good luck ever getting those done.
 
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The main political issue I'm expecting from them is Nordland, because that's where they're from and a Middenland backed project going into Nordland to work with illegal Nordlander magic users seems like a bit of an escalation. With that said, I don't see what the fuss is about. Assuming we manage to sneak their representative out of Nordland, couldn't we just paint them as the obscure and mysterious Cult of Haletha and be done with it?
 
Briefvoice said:
The Hedgewise have what we know is a very murky organization that, partially because they are illegal, cannot possibly have that level of oversight. It's difficult to tell whether a Hedgewise is acting squirrelly because them doing magic is illegal and they have to hide their magic or because they're up to their ears in dark magic... probably even for other Hedgewise.
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...TBH this reads to me as an argument more for legitimizing the Hedgewise than for trying to persecute them out of existence.
 
[X] Foundational Farms and Enchanting
[X] Plan Don't Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire More AP (Fatherless)
[X] Plan: No Recruitment
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP (Fatherless)

The last one is my least favorite but it's the one with a chance of winning.
 
A_Somebody said:
Okay mostly want to talk Spiders. So that snippet was we going "I guess our silk is worth twice it's weight in protein???" which to me implies a rather rudimentary understanding of trade. And also mostly focusing on getting sustenance. Unless they're buying books by the pound and eating them, I feel them buying books represents a significant forward leap in general economic understanding which is cool!
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That was my initial impression of that snippet too, but on a later realized it specifically said this:
Boney said:
The obvious question from there is 'how much more valuable', and the We had considered and ultimately rejected a great deal of economic theory in favour of a much more easy to grasp 'twice as valuable'. Twice the weight in protein, or roughly eight times it in live animals.
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It sounds like them deciding the "twice as valuable" was less them not really being capable of grasping economic theory, and more just lacking the motive of "maximize/optimize profits whenever possible".

Basically, they just don't really have a capitalist mindset. What does it matter if they could've had more money? They're satisfied with this amount.
 
LadyLynn said:
That was my initial impression of that snippet too, but on a later realized it specifically said this:

It sounds like them deciding the "twice as valuable" was less them not really being capable of grasping economic theory, and more just lacking the motive of "maximize/optimize profits whenever possible".

Basically, they just don't really have a capitalist mindset. What does it matter if they could've had more money? They're satisfied with this amount.
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The We have very little in the way of things they want to purchase, compared to other peoples. Even leaving aside that nobody makes many common luxuries for spiders, the fundamentally lonely nature of We means they wouldn't need them for social purposes.

Books make a lot of sense when one considers that We are very bad at storing information due to how their system works, but even that is limited to books on topics they think they need to store information about. Buying books frees up memory and they don't lose information when a body dies, but they are much less versatile, they can't be overwritten with new information if needed.
 
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Briefvoice said:
Yes, that is exactly what I think. If you think differently, that is a difference of opinion not a "fallacy".

It makes sense to me. There's little attention now, but people have memories. If this amounts to anything, "how it started" will be a story. "Who was in the room" will be remembered. I don't want the story to be that the Hedgewise were sitting across from Thorek and representatives from the Light College and Jade College and the Grey Colleges.

Bringing them in later and it's easier not to make a big deal out of it. Though we can also figure out if we even need them first. If things seem to be going well, maybe we'll have better things to do.
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The presumption that because an action is possesses risk right now, that it will inherently become less risky later is indeed a logical fallacy

But moving onto opinions as it were
Anyone who would look back at prior involvement of the Hedgewise and take issue with them isn't going to take less issue with them being invited to be involved later
If anything one could argue that it'd be more contentious to try and bring in the Hedgewise after the fact, since the Hedgewise not being involved at the inception makes it easier for people to argue excluding them from the project entirely

There is no bringing in another group into the project, one that'd want a share of the potential profit and influence as another partner, and "not making a big deal out of it"
They'd have their own magic paradigm that nobody else in the group understands that'd need to be cross referenced
They'd have their own callaborative controbution with various different group members
Introducing a whole new group with their own foreign theories and practices is going to be a big deal by default
I don't know if you're picturing sneaking in some Hedgewise under a sheet and running offscreen for their input without anyone else taking notice of their contribution into the project, but trying to keep the Hedgewise entirely from notice if we bring them into the project is not something that one should hinge their plans on
There's a reason the advice for bringing them on was "Here's how you make it deniable" rather than "try to keep them stuffed in the closet out of sight"

The idea that we ought to wait to see if we need the Hedgewise before we think about recruiting them is also flawed
We don't know if we need them or not, and we won't know after running into a hypothetical roadblock, because we don't know what sorts of insights the Hedgewise even have that could help
If the Hedgewise can help then it benefits to have them included as early as possible so that their insights can be taken into account from the start, planning to run into the potential issues first before seeking unknown insights afterward is kinda like studying after an exam
 
The Hedgefolk are about as susceptible to corruption as your average College Wizard. It's part of what makes them so attractive to the Colleges. They are magical and have practiced magic yet they bare very little taint, nothing more than the average sanctioned Wizard. A few relevant passages from Shades of Empire:

"Across the Empire, there are all manner of ancient traditional magics performed beyond the watchful eyes of the Colleges of Magic. No matter what they call themselves, be it Seers, Wyrds, Necromancers, Diviners, Elementalists, or even Hedge Wizards, the Colleges view them as dangerous, for channelling the Winds of Magic without proper training can have disastrous consequences. Contrary to what many may expect, the Hedgefolk agree with this.

The Hedgefolk are aware that magic is dangerous, and they believe only careful training by the Hedgefolk, and perhaps the Colleges, can ensure safety. Therefore, other Witches are a problem, for not only do they attract the attention of Witch Hunters, but they are dangerous as well. They tempt the Dark Gods with their reckless use of powers beyond their ken.

Different Hedgewise deal with this problem in different ways. Some seek out such Witches and turn them over to the authorities, some do their best to urge Witches to stay away from their territories, and some turn to hunting them down; whatever the individual direction, what is clear is the Hedgefolk do not like rogue Witches." Page 67

"Much like Witches, Cultists of the Dark Gods attract Witch Hunters in significant numbers. Because of this, and because the Hedgefolk are so opposed to the perversions of Chaos, it is common to find Hedgewise taking extreme measures to tackle those involved with the Ruinous Powers. Normally, the Hedgefolk are reticent to directly involve themselves with others; however, when it comes to followers of Chaos, poisons, curses, and even subtle knives in the dark are just a few of the many tactics used. Indeed, such is the strength of opposition from the Hedgefolk, many Cults teach their acolytes to target healers, apothecaries, and herbalists first when attempting to corrupt new settlements."

"The Colleges of Magic pose a unique threat to the Hedgefolk. Unlike their many other enemies, the Colleges are less concerned with destroying the Hedgefolk, and more concerned with recruiting them.

Because the Blessed Few, when property trained, demonstrate remarkably little taint, the Orders see them as prime candidates for "proper" training. Assuring they are not too old and stuck in their ways, the Colleges are keen to capture such Hedge Wizards and press them into the service of the Empire. Of course, those who refuse this generous offer are dealt with like any other rogue Witch: typically by burning. This is enough of a threat to force most young Hedge Masters to reconsider their beliefs on a permanent basis." Page 68
 
LadyLynn said:
Basically, they just don't really have a capitalist mindset. What does it matter if they could've had more money? They're satisfied with this amount.
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The incredibly fascinating thing from that passage, which I raved about at the time because of who I am as a person, was that the We treat currency much more like modern economic theory thinks of currency -- as a pure value-marker -- rather than the way Mathilde and the economic theories of WHF (and the analogous time periods in real life) did, as something with value in itself (hence the focus on precious metals). For all their lack of knowledge of the outside world, they reached the OOC "sophisticated" conclusion while the people teaching them still hold the OOC "primitive" understanding, which is super great.

I seem to recall a Boneypost that they spend the money they aren't spending on food mostly on books, apart from what they save for later, but I cannot find it (the keywords are really hard to search for), so take that with a giant asterisk.
 
Really I think the biggest problems are witch hunter because of racism, Elves because of arrogance in believing only they can do it, Chaos because well chaos, druichi because getting more waystone online would make it harder for the druichi, and Sigmar church because of racism.
 
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