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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Err, Plan: No Recruitment currently doesn't use the coin at all, going by what's in the tally and what's in the first and most recent votes that listed all of the actions in it. I believe that it's intended to use the Gambler on Laying the Foundations, given the variants that do do that.
 
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP

EDIT: For the record, I do think using the Gambler on the Foundations is likely very valuable. I don't think there'll be any dramatic problems that arise from not using it, or at least none that can't be solved without too much effort, but I do think it'll probably have a noticeable impact.

I'm just really into getting the Hedgewise on-board with the Foundations, and really want to get into more God and Cult stuff in general. I think getting the Hedgewise(which I think is very likely) will significantly compensate for the lack of Gambler on the Foundations.
 
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ReImagined said:
Personally, I much prefer the AV Powerstones action to the AV Enchantments action.
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Even if it was objectively better, I don't see how it's worth the extra action. Are we never doing AV enchanting? If so then great, we beat the system. But if we plan to get around to it eventually, then we're effectively paying 2 actions to make stones happen sooner. Are they that urgent? I don't think so. I also think that AV enchanting is a good narrative explanation for a fresh perspective on windherding, plus we make better use of Egrimm's time if we slot AV enchanting now and windherding next turn.

On the other hand, I can see how people would be sick of feeling pressured to come up with WEBMAT actions to fill a quota, and this seems like a good way to get it out of their system before we hunker down to munchkinize (4+2) research turns.
 
Rafin said:
How can anything that we've left to sit for 11 years be considered time sensitive? If something specific had happened last turn that triggered this becoming an option this turn then that would be something different. But nothing changed in the last ~2 years (when we got that Library).
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It was always timesensitive, from the time we leveled the castle onwards. We just didnt think of it till now. The fact we didnt doesnt change that the task isnt time sensitive, on the contrary, it gives more time for everyone else to think of the same thing and for them to organize a way to get at the books. Its very well in the realm of possibilities that someone is already trying to get at them and just hasnt had the resources or opportunity yet. Even if someone already got them its far easier to take up the trail and stop whatever shenanigans they get up to the earlier we know of it.
 
ReImagined said:
Err, Plan: No Recruitment currently doesn't use the coin at all, going by what's in the tally and what's in the first and most recent votes that listed all of the actions in it. I believe that it's intended to use the Gambler on Laying the Foundations, given the variants that do do that.
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The original post where it was laid out has a typo, using a { instead of a [ to open the bracket, and so the coin wasn't put in the tally. Then people copy/pasted what was in the tally, rather than just voting for the plan by name, so even if Thomasfoolery fixes it, it'll still display wrong. Luckily, Boney is not an evil genie, so if that plan wins, it'll be fine. We've had tally problems before and we undoubtedly will again.
 
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picklepikkl said:
Using AV in enchanting is a player-originated research idea, which I tend to be skeptical about for meta reasons. Furthermore, we know that exposing AV to magic causes it to decompose into winds, and so I don't have high hopes for AV as an enchanting reagent. The best idea I have for it, based on what we know about Warhammer metaphysics, is that maybe it will be useful for Windherding in some way, because it contains multiple Winds at once in potentia.
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I agree that AV powerstone has slightly better odds of creating very interesting or usefull results, but you didn't respond to my big problem with your plan : giving up a bonus action.

It really doesn't matter how much better AV powerstone looks on paper, it's worse then AV enchantement with a bonus free artifact analysis or apparition capture.

We arent choosing between two AV reasearch options here, we are choosing to give up a free action for prioritising a certain type of research, I am being pushy because bonus AP is extremely valuable and starting with AV powerstone doesn't come close to the same value.

Nurgle said:
I have been very adamant about doing more AV research because every chain of it has lead to something valuable.
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I am not arguing against AV research but the WEB-MAT action economy comes up this turn in a way that prioritising AV enchantement gives us a bonus AP we can spend on other magical research, giving that up is crazy.
 
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flogoyog said:
I agree that AV powerstone has slightly better odds of creating very interesting or usefull results, but you didn't respond to my big problem with your plan : giving up a bonus AP.

It really doesn't matter how much better AV powerstone looks on paper, it's worse then AV enchantement with a bonus free artifact analysis or apparition capture.

We arent choosing between two AV reasearch options here, we are choosing to give up a free action for prioritising a research action.
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I know that two AP is more than one AP. What I have said, multiple times, is that I think the one Mathilde action is better than the two WEBMAT actions. If someone has two bills of currency in one hand, and one bill on the other, and asks which hand's contents you want, knowing that two is more than one isn't enough information to decide which is more valuable. You need to know what bills those are. In this analogy, I think powerstones are a twenty and the best WEBMAT can offer are fives, so even though two is more than one, twenty is more than ten. Maybe you disagree! That's fine! Vote accordingly! If you think all the bills involved are tens, then clearly you should go for the two rather than the one. But it is not and has never been the case that we can assume all potential actions are of equal value. Some potential actions are of high value, some are total wastes of time, and we need to decide which to pursue.
Dragonofelder said:
Have we tried drinking AV? Or having someone else drink it?

I think we have actually, going to look for it...
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This kills the crab.
 
Dragonofelder said:
I honestly don't know what this means.

Did we test it on a crab and it died?
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It is a reference to a meme about cooking instructions for softshell crab that state the obvious. I will not post the associated image because I strongly suspect people will find it upsetting, but here is the text:

Feeding AV to a living being causes it to decompose explosively inside their digestive system and kill them. We did this as part of our safety testing, starting with insects because we aren't a goddamn monster. EDIT: It appears I didn't remember accurately: feeding pure AV to a living being does this, but mixed with water it was safer, though medium doses caused it to curdle into Dhar, at which point it is no longer safe. Thanks Codex for getting the citation.
 
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Dragonofelder said:
Have we tried drinking AV? Or having someone else drink it?

I think we have actually, going to look for it...
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This has been tested. It kills small creatures, and bigger ones gain a burst of emotion:
Boney said:
Vitae does not readily mix with other liquids, but very careful experimentation does reveal a way to stir it just enough to mix it without agitating enough to trigger the transformation, and before the waters can still once more and the Vitae can be drawn back together, you present the mixture to a series of dehydrated test subjects, who eagerly gulp it down. All of them show various levels of discomfort a few minutes later, coinciding with the sudden release of magical energies within them, but while the Amphibia test subjects have the energies escape through them and fill the room, the Aves and Mammalia ones have the energies initially remain within them, and they display heightened fear, anger, and curiosity responses as the Winds slowly radiate back out of them, similar to how animals act in Wind-rich environments. You increase the dosage, and find a medium-level dose that so floods the test subjects that the crowded energies are forced to intermingle and begin to curdle into Dhar. Unfortunate, but the mercy killings do provide an opportunity to do an autopsy, and you confirm that while the intermixed doses do cause internal bruising to the digestive organs from the Vitae transformation, it's not strong enough to cause severe or permanent damage.
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You drink a big enough dose, you would likely explode. You drink a small amount, you suffer from a weird mix of emotions. We haven't tested it on mages, and I'm not eager to.
 
Dragonofelder said:
Have we tried drinking AV? Or having someone else drink it?

I think we have actually, going to look for it...
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Turn 25, part 2, -[*] The Gambler: Investigate how living things react to exposure to the Vitae. We aborted drinking from that part onwards.
Boney said:
Next is Pisces. You're less than keen to fill an entire fishbowl with the Vitae, so you repeat the experiments one more time with a larval newt imported from Ulrikadrin, and all that you discover is that a gill chamber is as agitating to the Vitae as a beetle's stomach. About what you expected. Larger fish tend to be more intelligent than smaller fish, at least according to some Manannian doctrines, and you believe they might be able to spark a different reaction to the Vitae, but the logistical problems and safety hazards inherent in testing that hypothesis lead you to move on to Amphibia, represented by some Badlands lizards retrieved by scouts. The lizards are naturally quite terrified when they arrive, and you can see a very faint ripple in the ambient Shyish. Intelligent enough to fear death.

A single drop of Vitae glistens upon the scales of a terrified lizard for a moment, before exploding into Winds and sending the test subject skittering away in panic. You coax the poor creature into a nice dark box to nurse its bruise and move on to a second test subject, and you douse most of the lights, move quietly, and provide some of the surplus test subjects from the first two phases. The lizard calms somewhat as it eats, and though it watches you carefully, it does not react to the dropper moving slowly over it. The drop of Vitae lands atop its back and the creature freezes for a moment, before carefully returning to its feast. The drop moves slowly down its side and then falls onto the floor.
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Edit: Weber'd.
Edit 2: Clarified wording.
 
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Is there a way to do the AV powerstone reseach with a WEB-MAT action then ?
I would be wiling to diclose the origin of AV to the members of WEB-MAT in the name of not giving up an action if it's possible.

picklepikkl said:
I know that two AP is more than one AP. What I have said, multiple times, is that I think the one Mathilde action is better than the two WEBMAT actions. If someone has two bills of currency in one hand, and one bill on the other, and asks which hand's contents you want, knowing that two is more than one isn't enough information to decide which is more valuable. You need to know what bills those are. In this analogy, I think powerstones are a twenty and the best WEBMAT can offer are fives, so even though two is more than one, twenty is more than ten. Maybe you disagree! That's fine! Vote accordingly! If you think all the bills involved are tens, then clearly you should go for the two rather than the one. But it is not and has never been the case that we can assume all potential actions are of equal value. Some potential actions are of high value, some are total wastes of time, and we need to decide which to pursue.
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I cant see a world where the AV powerstone result is good enough to justify giving up a bonus action, even if the results are revolutionary they will probably need another action for any kind of usefull implementation, Just like the beneficial interactions with runes did.
 
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flogoyog said:
Is there a way to do the AV powerstone reseach with a WEB-MAT action then ?
I would be wiling to diclose the origin of AV to the members of WEB-MAT in the name of not giving up an action if it's possible.
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Boney said no, so here we are. That's the whole reasoning behind my plan skeletons: there are a bunch of things Mathilde can only do with personal AP, and now is a good time to make progress on them before the Waystone project kicks into high gear and we are more crunched for actions. On the flip side, I don't see a world where we're ever worried about having too many things we want to do with WEBMAT, because they are restricted in scope and we can turn two Mathilde AP into three WEBMAT AP.
 
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Briefvoice said:
I want to set up the shadow HQ in the fief, not the Sunken Palace, but even though I made my arguments and at least some people got on board, no plans other than my own (which is getting no votes) are doing that.
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I'm doing that. And I'm even doing that without the Father in one of my plans. And in another I am not disregarding WEB-MAT. But sadly not both at the same time. But that can be changed.

[] Plan for Briefvoice's Consideration
-[] One Overwork Action
-[] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
-[] WEB-MAT: Experiment with integrating the Vitae into enchantments with Egrimm.
-[] MAX: Receive dictation: Windsoak mushrooms book.
-[] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
--[] The Gambler
-[] Study an artefact: Ghyran Nut
--[] With Panoramia
-[] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Tindomiel)
-[] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
-[] EIC: Have the Hochlander set up a shadow headquarters for the EIC in your fief.
-[] KAU: Decide who your library staff will consist of, and go about recruiting them.
-[] SERENITY: The Black Orc Warboss' worship of Only Gork, and what you saw of the Rogue Idol ritual.

I added it with Xs filled in to my plan post. How do you like it?

@Boney Would doing two WEB-MAT actions with Egrimm be acceptable or would he, combined with the foundation action that also directly involves him, feel like we are monopolizing his time too much?
LightLan said:
We can do both windherding and apparation hunting as WEBMAT actions.
Both do have at least some supporters.

in fact we could try dropping one action from the currently winning plan and do both.

Which action is least wanted?
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Fiddling with an existing plan that many people voted for is bad form.
Dragonofelder said:
Edit: Also I want to add; I think my reaction to what I see as a lot of negativity is to throw a joke. But I also have a tendency to put my foot in my mouth, so.
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Sometimes it's hard to separate laughing with people from laughing at people over the medium of text. And when people act all serious to the point of negative undertones it often is because, at least at that moment, they are serious, warranted or no. So trying to make light of how serious they are can easily rub said serious people the wrong way.
mathymancer said:
I'm going to be voting for the names of the plans sans the block of text and just hope that Boney can make sense of the tally in the incredibly unlikely event that it wins.
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Don't do that for the plans of which you are the author of. Combining different votes in the tally is easy. But if nobody is voting for the plan in question with its full body of text then the tally doesn't link to it and Boney has to guess who wrote it and manually search the thread for it.
 
I have finally reached most recent update in my reading through this magnificent story and started on omajes!

And because of reading omakes and how often Liber Mortis mentioned in them and watching Highlander I had seen a dream... and now I have a question to those more deep in the lore and mechanics of the this fantastic world - can Mathilde cast necromancer spell with Ulgu and make someone immortal by using not dhar but pure Ulgu in said spell? After all she already adapted one necromancer spell as Matrix
 
What were the reasons we are so hesitant to be open about AV? I'm guessing a combination of it being a potentially very dangerous substance, it being easily confusable for demonology, and us wanting to be primarily responsible for coming out with something Highly Revolutionary And Super Cool And Useful?
 
LadyLynn said:
What were the reasons we are so hesitant to be open about AV? I'm guessing a combination of it being a potentially very dangerous substance, it being easily confusable for demonology, and us wanting to be primarily responsible for coming out with something Highly Revolutionary And Super Cool And Useful?
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Back during the K8P days, every time we had a chance to propose AV to Belegar as our next task, people shot it down. I was on the pro-AV side, so I undoubtedly have a very biased memory of those arguments, but you can find them if you search and judge the OOC reasoning for yourself.

In-character, I think it's mostly a combination of the daemonology thing and also the fact that Mathilde literally can't outsource a lot of this. When we asked Boney about using Max and Johann for some of the AV actions back in K8P, we were told that their senses just weren't up to Mathilde snuff for detecting some of the magical interactions going on -- and we saw that ourselves, that time Johann was stuck on the Ratling Gun for a long time until Mathilde unblocked him with her better Windsight. So AV is mostly a Mathilde-only show by practical necessity as well as by political necessity, which slows our pace down a lot.
 
Centergg said:
I have finally reached most recent update in my reading through this magnificent story and started on omajes!

And because of reading omakes and how often Liber Mortis mentioned in them and watching Highlander I had seen a dream... and now I have a question to those more deep in the lore and mechanics of the this fantastic world - can Mathilde cast necromancer spell with Ulgu and make someone immortal by using not dhar but pure Ulgu in said spell? After all she already adapted one necromancer spell as Matrix
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Dhar + Shyish makes Necromancy.

Dhar + Ulgu makes… well, the Eshin Lore of Stealth, but possibly other things, who knows?

I don't particularly want to, personally.
 
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