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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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ctulhuslp said:
If we are banking on it, we might as well sacrifice and try to aim for Abraham sacrificing his son.

And if we think that this sacrifice will not be pulled this way, well then it is pretty clear that we do not actually believe that he would not mind. :V
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Nah.

I know it's unreasonable to ask some one to read sixty pages of discussion but there's plenty of reasons why what you're saying here is not right and BoneyM has been one of the people to say so.

Literally there's no benefit to choosing faith if you want Truth, because it puts Ranald in the path of any ecclesiastical blow back if Mathilde is caught, Ranald may be happy to look the other way but if we go to him and ask then he'll have to tell us to knock it off or risk ruining his relationship with the other gods.
 
Codex said:
The idea here is that Mathilde would try to be subtle about it. If the gods notice, then she's getting smited, and Mathilde can't stand a direct smiting from a god. There's a limit to hubris.

Anyways, I'm not too invested in Hekarti. Sure, no Hekarti raiding. Let's do Khaine, Anath Raema, Atharti etc. There's plenty more where that comes from.

I have very little affection for the Cytharai. "They're a dark reflection of the Elven Psyche" or whatever, I don't care. Khaine blinded, crippled and enslaved Vaul to produce weapons for him for all eternity, and Vaul hates it so much that his tears pour into the mortal world as flint, accepting the situation because he's "vital for beating Chaos" or whatever. I don't care, he 100% deserves to be mugged. What an asshole.
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I do not think we should just assume that 'if the gods notice we are getting smited', that has been the broad assumption, but all we really know IC is that 'if the gods would have wanted this known they could have spread it around', so the gods are probably going to be upset, how upset and what are the mechanisms of divine manifestation we do not know... Though finding out more of the truths of the divine is what truth is about.
 
DragonParadox said:
I do not think we should just assume that 'if the gods notice we are getting smited', that has been the broad assumption, but all we really know IC is that 'if the gods would have wanted this known they could have spread it around', so the gods are probably going to be upset, how upset and what are the mechanisms of divine manifestation we do not know... Though finding out more of the truths of the divine is what truth is about.
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Yeah but you said that you wouldn't support raiding Hekarti because you wanted the help of her followers, which seems to imply that you're operating under the impression that being caught is a given. In what scenario do you expect the Gods to catch Mathilde in the process and it not turning into a complete clusterfuck? Who are you going to support raiding then?
 
Codex said:
I have very little affection for the Cytharai. "They're a dark reflection of the Elven Psyche" or whatever, I don't care. Khaine blinded, crippled and enslaved Vaul to produce weapons for him for all eternity, and Vaul hates it so much that his tears pour into the mortal world as flint, accepting the situation because he's "vital for beating Chaos" or whatever. I don't care, he 100% deserves to be mugged. What an asshole.
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Just noticed this. You could look at that story as elven craft being enslaved to war with the coming of chaos. Saying Khaine is bad, is like saying 'war is bad'. Of course it is... but you still have to do it in a world like this one.
 
ctulhuslp said:
If we are banking on it, we might as well sacrifice and try to aim for Abraham sacrificing his son.

And if we think that this sacrifice will not be pulled this way, well then it is pretty clear that we do not actually believe that he would not mind. :V
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Would a God of Secrets and theft test a follower by punishing them for keeping secrets and stealing?

Wrong god for that trial - a Ranaldite equivalent trial is keeping your mouth shut about your accomplice if you get arrested
 
Codex said:
Yeah but you said that you wouldn't support raiding Hekarti because you wanted the help of her followers, which seems to imply that you're operating under the impression that being caught is a given. In what scenario do you expect the Gods to catch Mathilde in the process and it not turning into a complete clusterfuck? Who are you going to support raiding then?
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The implication is that we might get caught and I do not want to risk ruining a relationship already founded for just one set of fingerprints.

As for who I would support raiding.... people who we would never work with, or those who we can help by clearing their names of being Chaos.
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
Nah.

I know it's unreasonable to ask some one to read sixty pages of discussion but there's plenty of reasons why what you're saying here is not right and BoneyM has been one of the people to say so.

Literally there's no benefit to choosing faith if you want Truth, because it puts Ranald in the path of any ecclesiastical blow back if Mathilde is caught, Ranald may be happy to look the other way but if we go to him and ask then he'll have to tell us to knock it off or risk ruining his relationship with the other gods.
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Yes? I do not doubt that. I am arguing against any variation of having your cake and eating it, be it assuming we can keep being so close after Truth or we can keep research after Faith. Both are not impossible, but not something we should remotely count upon as probable or likely.
Just take the choice at face value, basically.
 
veekie said:
Would a God of Secrets and theft test a follower by punishing them for keeping secrets and stealing?

Wrong god for that trial - a Ranaldite equivalent trial is keeping your mouth shut about your accomplice if you get arrested
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That sounds way too close to justifying how one of vote choices in a important decision can give you both for free to sound like reasonable quest design, so while your hypothesis (and it is nothing more than that) is not impossible, it is less likely than alternatives, on at the very least meta grounds.
And on textual grounds too.
 
ctulhuslp said:
That sounds way too close to justifying how one of vote choices in a important decision can give you both for free to sound like reasonable quest design, so while your hypothesis (and it is nothing more than that) is not impossible, it is less likely than alternatives, on at the very least meta grounds.
And on textual grounds too.
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this being a secret test of character has not been confirmed in the text, that was an argument made up by questers rather than the QM.
Ranald is the god of liars, among other things, and
Ranald has been quite clear in dissuading us from dangerous things in the past
therefore him testing us for honesty doesn't make a lot of sense
therefore, many people feel it is safe to assume one of two things
1) this is not a secret test of character from Ranald (personally this feels most likely)
or 2) the real test of character is seeing if we cash out now or let it ride.

you are free to disagree, of course, but saying that a certain player made argument must be true because of quest design feels rather silly to me, since players are generally not involved in quest design.
 
ctulhuslp said:
That sounds way too close to justifying how one of vote choices in a important decision can give you both for free to sound like reasonable quest design, so while your hypothesis (and it is nothing more than that) is not impossible, it is less likely than alternatives, on at the very least meta grounds.
And on textual grounds too.
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Hardly, plausible deniability also means he can't reward us for things done that way. That he approves of it doesn't change that if he acknowledges the offering then the rest come with.

For Truth to become Piety, we'd need to do the research, get to the end of the tree, then give Ranald his cut of the takings if we succeed.
The main goal remains research even if Ranald is secretly in favor of it, we'd not be getting any benefits of that favor until we complete the project and give him a share of that.

As Boney said on this topic: It may be easier to ask forgiveness than permission here.
If we have results, the gods would be more likely to accept it that we've ALREADY walked the path and done no ill with it, than to trust this mortal not to take the research down dark places as she starts on an unknown road.


On the inverse side - in what way would a god of secrets and deception(and stealing power from the gods) test a follower who worships him mainly through emulation?
By putting her in a situation where she exposes her secrets, tells the truth and gives up the possibility of stealing power from the gods?
 
The biggest reason for not going for the Imperial gods (and the Kislev ones and the dwarf ones...) is not that we get smited on the spot (I don't actually think thats possible, someone would need to be there to do the smiting as I understand it) but that the grand theogonist or the Ar ulric goes to the Emperor and complains about us, because then we have to stop. Losing the support of the colleges is super duper bad for us...

But on the other hand, we don't need to use one of the big magical sites or items for the essence, using small time divine artifacts is totally possible, it's just hard to tell if you have a genuine one, so that would be more research but also waaaaay safer.
 
I obviously don't know the minds of the gods, but logically they shouldn't be that threatened by Mathilde learning their secrets. It doesn't take all that much prompting to get Mathilde to keep a secret. So long as someone is willing to give her a bribe bigger than the college favor she would get from the paper which seems well within their means.
 
fictionfan said:
I obviously don't know the minds of the gods, but logically they shouldn't be that threatened by Mathilde learning their secrets. It doesn't take all that much prompting to get Mathilde to keep a secret. So long as someone is willing to give her a bribe bigger than the college favor she would get from the paper which seems well within their means.
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Cult secrets are a pretty damned big deal. Most cults have a very stern view on outsiders learning about any.

And the examples of such are not very complimentary given how the Lore of Morr was used to raise the dead.
 
Tobtorp said:
The biggest reason for not going for the Imperial gods (and the Kislev ones and the dwarf ones...) is not that we get smited on the spot (I don't actually think thats possible, someone would need to be there to do the smiting as I understand it) but that the grand theogonist or the Ar ulric goes to the Emperor and complains about us, because then we have to stop. Losing the support of the colleges is super duper bad for us...

But on the other hand, we don't need to use one of the big magical sites or items for the essence, using small time divine artifacts is totally possible, it's just hard to tell if you have a genuine one, so that would be more research but also waaaaay safer.
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Wrath of the Gods and Vengeance of the Gods are both expressions of the Gods deciding to personally take a hand and punish you for percieved misdeeds. These are usually done on Priests, both spellcasting ones and even lay priests. However, I think this can even occur to a faithful, albeit the exact effects are usually less severe than on a priest.

It's not impossible for the Gods to decide to personally smite you. It just takes a LOT of convincing for them to do so, and it's much easier to bring over a priest to do the smiting instead of personally expending the energy for it.
 
veekie said:
Cult secrets are a pretty damned big deal. Most cults have a very stern view on outsiders learning about any.

And the examples of such are not very complimentary given how the Lore of Morr was used to raise the dead.
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Err, that's not correct?

Van Hal was a morrite priest but that isn't what allowed him to raise the dead and iirc it didn't assist with it either?
 
Codex said:
Wrath of the Gods and Vengeance of the Gods are both expressions of the Gods deciding to personally take a hand and punish you for percieved misdeeds. These are usually done on Priests, both spellcasting ones and even lay priests. However, I think this can even occur to a faithful, albeit the exact effects are usually less severe than on a priest.

It's not impossible for the Gods to decide to personally smite you. It just takes a LOT of convincing for them to do so, and it's much easier to bring over a priest to do the smiting instead of personally expending the energy for it.
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That's fair, (and thank you for the info) I still think they would not smite us directly. They might become super duper cross with us though. And that's why we should not get caught doing what we are doing. Let's just find a small time artifact of sigmario and his hammer and look at it behind 3 feet of Dwarven runes.
 
Something that's been on my mind is that Boney has constantly implied that Valaya might be paying attention to her Rune on Mathilde's belt, and he's been careful to mention that there is no guarantee that it would continue to work if she started to intentionally court Dark Magics.

The question is if Valaya is indeed paying a modicum of attention to Mathilde through the belt, whether she would be displeased or fine with what's happening. I can't imagine that she would be, but then again it's not like the belt reacted to her reading the Liber Mortis, and Valaya might have disapproved of that too. Does that disprove the possibility of Valaya keeping an eye on Mathilde? I don't know. Maybe, but maybe not and Valaya isn't paying enough attention to tell the specifics of what Mathilde does. Or maybe she is paying attention and she's surprisingly morally flexible. Eh, we'll find out I guess.
 
I think it would take much more than this to get Sigmar to personally come around to put a brick through the window.
 
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Codex said:
Something that's been on my mind is that Boney has constantly implied that Valaya might be paying attention to her Rune on Mathilde's belt, and he's been careful to mention that there is no guarantee that it would continue to work if she started to intentionally court Dark Magics.

The question is if Valaya is indeed paying a modicum of attention to Mathilde through the belt, whether she would be displeased or fine with what's happening. I can't imagine that she would be, but then again it's not like the belt reacted to her reading the Liber Mortis, and Valaya might have disapproved of that too. Does that disprove the possibility of Valaya keeping an eye on Mathilde? I don't know. Maybe, but maybe not and Valaya isn't paying enough attention to tell the specifics of what Mathilde does. Or maybe she is paying attention and she's surprisingly morally flexible. Eh, we'll find out I guess.
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Probably not, she is a dwarf god and the dwarfs do not give much of a damn about the internal conflicts of other species. As long as we do not poke the dwarf pantheon specifically (which would be too stupid to define in words) she is very unlikely to care.
 
Glau said:
So, theories on why this information, which would be EXTRAORDINARLY USEFUL to their worshipers and priests, is being kept secret by the gods?
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The obvious answer is that the gods are ignorant about how they work, just as humans in the setting are, and admitting their ignorance to their Cults would undermine their Cults' faith in their divinity, as ignorance about their own fundamental metaphysical nature isn't very godly. Why should being a god come with automatic self-knowledge of the principles that underlie their existence? Being a human doesn't, and they're partially Aethyric entities as well.

Mathilde doesn't consider this option, but that could be because she's too faithful herself to contemplate the option that the gods are that fallible.
 
Phalfpipe said:
If there's a worst case scenario, a divine that notices and strongly objects to the experiment , I'm pretty sure they'd just send something or someone to tell her to knock it off. I think it would take much more than this to get Sigmar to personally come around to put a brick through the window.
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The mental image of a steam tank sized golden glowing brick being thrown through our apartment has me in giggles...
 
I normally read every page, but I go to sleep and wake up to find 50 new pages of messages holy shit. I'm going to guess the voting's become contentious.

Truth's in the lead I see.
 
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