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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Alratan said:
The history of the gods may be unknowable, the history of the origin of the modern cult seems much open to investigation, as described in the bit of BoneyM's post you didn't quote:

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Even if there was Belthani worship of a god that can be idetified with Taal, that may not matter. If the modern Cult is descended from the Taleutens as described in Tome of Salvation, after the role of priest split off from the role of king (page 12) then there may be no continuity between Belthani worship of that entity and the current Imperial cult. The way the text is written in such an over the top way strongly implies that the 'Tilean' theory that the institution/role of priest was something that the proto-Imperial tribes picked up from the southern tribes is true.

Generally, this section of Tome of Salvation, is, I think, some of the best Warhammer material and is well worth a read if you have access to it. An interesting bit I just read is this:

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You can see why Cython thinks that some of the human gods are the same as the elven ones with those early names!
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You seem to be under the impression that a Cult is just a collective echo chamber where everyone believes their god comes from the same origin? I can clearly see members of the Cult having vigorous disagreements over Taal's nature, as a great number of them come from a wide variety of cultures and backgrounds that involve the Belthani's Old Faith, Shamanistic and Druidic beliefs, and a number of nature gods subsumed by Taal. Even if part of Taal's origin comes from Kurnous, Taal is not Kurnous. Taal is Taal. He isn't Kurnous but for humans, he's a complicated entity formed by the beliefs of hundreds of thousands of people, many of which likely disagree on his origins and likely have knowledge that would be relevant to our project because at least part of them descend from the Belthani.
 
[X] Plan Redshirt v2 with Divine AV
[X] Plan Redshirt v2
[X] Plan Redshirt v2 with Divine AV with nice living space
[X] Plan Redshirt v2 with nice living space
[X] Plan Windherding: Crawl now, Run next turn
[X] Plan: Keep it basic+AV
 
Codex said:
You seem to be under the impression that a Cult is just a collective echo chamber where everyone believes their god comes from the same origin? I can clearly see members of the Cult having vigorous disagreements over Taal's nature, as a great number of them come from a wide variety of cultures and backgrounds that involve the Belthani's Old Faith, Shamanistic and Druidic beliefs, and a number of nature gods subsumed by Taal. Even if part of Taal's origin comes from Kurnous, Taal is not Kurnous. Taal is Taal. He isn't Kurnous but for humans, he's a complicated entity formed by the beliefs of hundreds of thousands of people, many of which likely disagree on his origins and likely have knowledge that would be relevant to our project because at least part of them descend from the Belthani.
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My impression from the available evidence is that the precursors to Cult of Taal, as an institution in the empire rather than as a tribal faith lead by the chieftain in a merger of secular and temporal power, emerged several hundred years after the Taleutens entered the Reik basin, possibly in emulation of the priests that the proto-Tilean groups they encountered had. This would be several hundred years after the Belthani disappeared from the pre-historical record, apparently because the proto-Imperial tribes killed them off (although some survivors apparently went into the deep woods as the druids - note that from what Tome of Salvation tells us, those Children of Belthani didn't join the Cult of Rhya, they remained seperate and hidden for thousands of years until Teclis recruited them). Now, it's noted that while some Cults were subsumed peacefully, those of the proto-Imperial tribes that could be identified with the Great Mother are noted to have been, the Cults of Ulric and Taal, particularly of Taal, are noted to have gained monopolies on their portfolios by force, literally killing off the Cults of gods with overlapping portfolios. In a pre-literate era, this would mean that their knowledge most likely died with them.

Now, seeing as the Cult of Taal as an institution doesn't seem to have overlapped with the existence of the Belthani as a people, and the Cullt of Taal's response to other people worshipping a similar god under another name was often to kill them, it seems very unlikely that they would have somehow have gained the Belthani's knowledge.

To me, given the gap in history and culture, it seems like saying that the modern Roman Catholic Church should be expected to know the secrets of the druid orders of Gaul because Rome conquered Gaul and the Roman Catholic Church became the religious institution that took over the druids' social role in the successors to the Roman Empire.

As I say, Tome of Salvation has an interesting IC document about the history and origin of the Empire's Cults as institutions. It's a book much more about the Cults than the gods, which is a refreshing change from most settings 'god' books.
 
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going with this for full cultural immersion plan

[X] Plan Full Cultural Immersion 2.0
-[X] Overwork (Slot 1)
--[X] Explore the wonders of the ancient and beautiful city of Tor Lithanel
-[X] Immerse yourself in the culture of the 'Cityborn' Toriour inhabitants of Tor Lithanel
-[X] Immerse yourself in the culture of the 'Forestborn' Faniour inhabitants of the woods surrounding Tor Lithanel
-[X] Explore one of the Wards of Laurelorn (specify which: Storm, Rain, Frost)
--[X] Storm Ward
-[X] Explore one of the Wards of Laurelorn (specify which: Storm, Rain, Frost)
--[X] Rain Ward
-[X] Explore one of the Wards of Laurelorn (specify which: Storm, Rain, Frost)
--[X] Frost Ward
-[X] EIC: Have a blackpowder factory built in Wurtbad.
-[X] The Night Prowler
-[X] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (FADING)

Night prowler allows Malthitide a unique experience intot the culture and way of lives for the Eonir which i think is worth prioritizing and what once took years can now take months for Malthitide to learn a new cultures traditions, language, and simple mannerisms and way of life.

Mhm, were not in a rush and I think getting a scan of the surroundings of the political climate for the elves is for the best so we know what our decisions affect it moving forward and perhaps even round up the houses against human contact and know how to change their minds.
 
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TimEd said:
[X] Plan Redshirt v2 with Divine AV

I want an elf level fancy place, since we are in elf lands. 300 is nice, but I want it to be fancy.
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Here is my issue with the statement. We don't know if 600 is elvish fancy. It might well still be poor according to the elves - for whom residentual costs have no upper limit. Yes it is more likely to be fancy but there is no guarantee. For all we know all that the extra 300 will provide is the appearance of being faux-rich. Thus I prefer the 300 since I know what I am getting for the money, while still being by no means frugal.
 
VoiceOfTheRiders said:
Here is my issue with the statement. We don't know if 600 is elvish fancy. It might well still be poor according to the elves - for whom residentual costs have no upper limit. Yes it is more likely to be fancy but there is no guarantee. For all we know all that the extra 300 will provide is the appearance of being faux-rich. Thus I prefer the 300 since I know what I am getting for the money, while still being by no means frugal.
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Well at least it will be fancy by the standards of the wizards and Runesmiths attending and at worst look kitschy rather than outright impoverished.

Also is it just me or does no plan furnish the research spaces?

Because that seems like something we'd want to do sooner rather than later.

[x] Plan Windherding: Crawl now, Run next turn
 
VoiceOfTheRiders said:
Here is my issue with the statement. We don't know if 600 is elvish fancy. It might well still be poor according to the elves - for whom residentual costs have no upper limit. Yes it is more likely to be fancy but there is no guarantee. For all we know all that the extra 300 will provide is the appearance of being faux-rich. Thus I prefer the 300 since I know what I am getting for the money, while still being by no means frugal.
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If 600 is faux-luxury than 300 is a hole in the ground. I would rather come off as tacky and cheap than an utter savage
 
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Zero Gravitas said:
Well at least it will be fancy by the standards of the wizards and Runesmiths attending and at worst look kitschy rather than outright impoverished.

Also is it just me or does no plan furnish the research spaces?

Because that seems like something we'd want to do sooner rather than later.

[x] Plan Windherding: Crawl now, Run next turn
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General view is we won't be using it this turn since we aren't doing any research and the dwarves won't be recruited based on how fancy our research area is. We can do the research area on the turn we think we will need it, either for recruitment or research.
 
[x] Plan Windherding: Crawl now, Run next turn
[X] Plan Redshirt v2 with Divine AV
[X] Plan Redshirt v2
[X] Plan Putting Down Roots
[X] Plan Redshirt v2 with Windherding
[X] Plan WEB-MAT & Culture
[X] Plan WEB-MAT & Max Research
 
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[X] Plan Redshirt v2 with Divine AV with nice living space
-[X] JOHANN: Have Johann spend time getting to know Kadoh, who has expressed an interest in meeting the 'fist metal-Mage'.
-[X] Attempt to bring a Karak's Runesmiths into the Waystone Project (Karak Azul)
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] Furnish the living spaces of the Waystone Project HQ (300gc)
-[X] Immerse yourself in the culture of the 'Cityborn' Toriour inhabitants of Tor Lithanel
-[X] Immerse yourself in the culture of the 'Forestborn' Faniour inhabitants of the woods surrounding Tor Lithanel
-[X] Investigate how the Vitae reacts with Divine Magic.
-[X] EIC: Have a blackpowder factory built in Wurtbad.
-[X] SERENITY: Observations of Karag Dum and its unusual guardian
 
Zero Gravitas said:
Wouldn't it cause us to look just... not very serious though?
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I mean not doing any intensive research in the first 6 months, of which we spend a lot of time getting to know the lay of the land is more likely to make us look politically canny. Not exactly big researcher energy, but not slacking off either given that we are working on the place and we will hopefully have a dwarf to show off soon.
 
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