Removing the sword their navy represents hanging over our head is just a few actions away. The prestige loss of breaking a non-agression pact would be counter to their goals. A few trade deals, perhaps some other actions, and we can lock them into a parallel path rather than confrontation.
Ymaryn Successor Quest (Paths of Civ AU)
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Trade deals won't stop them from being our enemies when the Khem are more concerned about King of the Hill. While the Khem currently have it, that is due to them being a position of temporary strength while the Ymaryn are in a position of temporary weakness. With us being superior on the fundamentals, we are going to keep catching up and therefore the Khem are going to keep viewing us as an enemy instead of a friend. Until the Khem lose the King of the Hill, they aren't going to be interested in our friendship unless we decided to effectively subordinate ourselves to them to keep them appeased and I have no interest in doing that.
I also doubt that we can simply remove the threat of their navy is just a few actions. We have to pay for all of the warships which will require 1 Treasury for every point of warships and each point of warships will take at least two years to build if not longer. It will be at least a decade before we can come close to matching the Khem's naval strength and that is if we focus on just doing that. If we do other things, it will take far longer.
Edit: In any case, we should be prioritising our actual friends such as Pamplona and Amber Road over trying to appease our enemies in the hopes that they will magically stop being opposed to us despite it being in their own interests to do so.
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The mechanics now exist to get them into a non-agression pact. Breaking it will hurt them and specifically hurt their prestige. They are riding high on humiliating us.
We can get them to opinion 6-7 and press for a non-agression pact that will make it hard to push us over KoTH next time it comes up.
Or they could try and work around it, by either finding ways to force us to break it, sabotage, or other methods.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
This isn't some computer game where the mechanics are something that is blindly followed. Just look at how the mechanics can work differently to normal in the Thunder Plateau Sacred Warding. Instead of autopassing, we still have to do a dice roll due to narrative effects. I see no reason that the Khem will just let themselves get into an alliance with us when we are still rivals just because the mechanics say it is technically possible.
Yes, but we can build navy in the meantime, and it stops them from just blockading us.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We can't just build the strongest navy. It takes time and money to do so and those things are in short supply even for the Ymaryn when it building a navy that can match the Khem's. Especially if we want to do other expensive actions like the Math Reform, supporting Thunder Plateau or a megaproject.
This is more of a reason to push the "we're actually willing to work with you" button. At the least, it'll divide their internal factions, and hurt more in the event of war (traders + trade beneficiaries will throw a fit). If you expect the trade agreement to be soon suspended, the total income loss would also be minimal.
Treat them like "enemies" (again, they're rivals with just below neutral opinion), and they'll have no reason to even try working with us. Show them that we'll actually give them some consideration, and they'll give a second thought before throwing away a willing friendship.
...
What this really is, however, is another reason not to take the Rus conquests for +20 prestige, only the Western Wall traditional boundaries. We're not actually ready for another confrontation under the best case: our people are war-wary, and our navy is still lackluster.
(This doesn't even take into account that the conquered Rus would take a Great Powers War as the perfect time to revolt.)
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[] Plan Noliar
-[] Influence: Diplomatic Contact, Pulska: Who are the Pules and what do they want? (???%. 1 Year.)
-[] Influence: Survey Thunder Plateau Province: The Thunder Mountains have been surveyed many times, but a lot of information about their resource deposits would have been lost in the chaos of the Black Sheep takeover during the Collapse. Additionally, technology and the skill of surveyors is always improving. (???%. 1 Year. Resources?)
-[] Influence: Determine Internal Factions: Receive a dossier on the relevant internal factions of a polity you have diplomatic relations with. This will allow you to support or oppose their internal factions to be more favorable to your interests.
--[] Western Wall
-[] Catch up on the latest plays and theological debates (-Stress)
Our big import will be textiles. No way is our large urban population spending enough time with distaff and spindle (90% of the labour) to be self sufficient there. Especially since most of our people can afford more than one outfit. Oh, and our focus on food stability and sustainability will mean proportionately less land devoted to fibre production.
Cloth is an excellent long distance trade good and since everywhere has there own styles and specialities we'd be importing even if we were self sufficient. And though we're a net importer we're still exporting too thanks to our dyeing industry.
You could say spinning makes the world go wound.
I'll get me coat
-[] Influence: Diplomatic Contact, Pulska: Who are the Pules and what do they want? (???%. 1 Year.)
-[] Influence: Survey Thunder Plateau Province: The Thunder Mountains have been surveyed many times, but a lot of information about their resource deposits would have been lost in the chaos of the Black Sheep takeover during the Collapse. Additionally, technology and the skill of surveyors is always improving. (???%. 1 Year. Resources?)
-[] Influence: Determine Internal Factions: Receive a dossier on the relevant internal factions of a polity you have diplomatic relations with. This will allow you to support or oppose their internal factions to be more favorable to your interests.
--[] Western Wall
-[] Catch up on the latest plays and theological debates (-Stress)
Our big import will be textiles. No way is our large urban population spending enough time with distaff and spindle (90% of the labour) to be self sufficient there. Especially since most of our people can afford more than one outfit. Oh, and our focus on food stability and sustainability will mean proportionately less land devoted to fibre production.
Cloth is an excellent long distance trade good and since everywhere has there own styles and specialities we'd be importing even if we were self sufficient. And though we're a net importer we're still exporting too thanks to our dyeing industry.
You could say spinning makes the world go wound.
I'll get me coat
[] Plan Get Highlander Diplomacy Out of the Way
-[] Influence: Diplomatic Contact, Highlanders (???% 1 Year. Possible -Influence)
-[] Influence: Calendar Reform: The calendar adopted from the Khemetri in the wake of the Godfist has the disadvantage that the year shifts, losing a day every four years. It had been planned that once a full rotation had been completed, there would be a reform that adds an extra day every four years. However, the Collapse serves as an important enough event that a new calendar that begins at the end of the collapse would be warranted and allow the reform to occur thousands of years ahead of schedule. (60%, 3 years, +1 Influence, better calendar)
-[] Influence: Determine Internal Factions: Receive a dossier on the relevant internal factions of a polity you have diplomatic relations with. This will allow you to support or oppose their internal factions to be more favorable to your interests.
--[] Western Wall
-[] Catch up on the latest plays and theological debates (-Stress)
This one focuses on getting the highlander diplomacy out of the way lest we forget. We will also need to determine internal faction of the WW because they're a huge honking mess.
-[] Influence: Diplomatic Contact, Highlanders (???% 1 Year. Possible -Influence)
-[] Influence: Calendar Reform: The calendar adopted from the Khemetri in the wake of the Godfist has the disadvantage that the year shifts, losing a day every four years. It had been planned that once a full rotation had been completed, there would be a reform that adds an extra day every four years. However, the Collapse serves as an important enough event that a new calendar that begins at the end of the collapse would be warranted and allow the reform to occur thousands of years ahead of schedule. (60%, 3 years, +1 Influence, better calendar)
-[] Influence: Determine Internal Factions: Receive a dossier on the relevant internal factions of a polity you have diplomatic relations with. This will allow you to support or oppose their internal factions to be more favorable to your interests.
--[] Western Wall
-[] Catch up on the latest plays and theological debates (-Stress)
This one focuses on getting the highlander diplomacy out of the way lest we forget. We will also need to determine internal faction of the WW because they're a huge honking mess.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
A rival who dislikes us and is opposed to us is an enemy, just look at the definition of the term. They also don't want to be our friends and pretending that isn't the case doesn't change the facts. Right now, the Khem are our enemies because that is in their self-interest and if we want to change that, we need to change things so it is in their self-interest to be our friends and not our enemies. That means making so the Khem stop viewing us as a threat to their position as King of the Hill, which cannot be done by just weakening our people to strengthen them unless you decide to take it far enough that we are looking at another Collapse.
Ignoring the actual issues won't make the Khem magically our friends and will only result in continued hostilities whilst strengthening our enemies at the expense of our own people. And relying on game mechanics is a terrible plan when the QM has shown that they clearly willing to fudge or ignore them to better fit or represent the narrative effects of the quest.
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. 1 income is 1 treasury over 50 years. It is hardly weakening our people. 5 opinion is neutral. 5 r likely means "no like or dislike, but they are in the way".
We need to get that to positive opinion so Khem starts being open to another way. When their opinion is high they will look for nice ways to up their prestige rather than looking for the easiest way to pound us down.
AND it lowers our prestige to even take the action, so it helps pad them out.
Khemetri doesn't actually dislike us: again, their opinion is barely below neutral.
Right now, we've both hurt them in the past (including by blatantly selling guns to their wartime enemies) and tried to make amends. So, no, Khemetri will not make the first move until our position has become more clear; it will be up to us.
You also seem to be viewing the Khem as a unified entity, when they have internal factions just as we do. Some of these factions can effectively be befriended: a trade deal pulls at the levers of the traders and the trade beneficiaries. We now have diplomacy actions to target even the other factions.
Simply treating them as a gestalt "enemy" will leave no one to throw a fit and moderate (or redirect) their future actions.
...
Edit:
Right now, we've both hurt them in the past (including by blatantly selling guns to their wartime enemies) and tried to make amends. So, no, Khemetri will not make the first move until our position has become more clear; it will be up to us.
You also seem to be viewing the Khem as a unified entity, when they have internal factions just as we do. Some of these factions can effectively be befriended: a trade deal pulls at the levers of the traders and the trade beneficiaries. We now have diplomacy actions to target even the other factions.
Simply treating them as a gestalt "enemy" will leave no one to throw a fit and moderate (or redirect) their future actions.
...
Edit:
Sadly, it doesn't (only for giving favorable deals to less prestigious states), but everything else is the case.
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- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The Ymaryn lose Income while the Khem gain Income. That is weakening the Ymaryn to strengthen the Khem. We could also focus on our actual budding alliances instead of trying to appease our enemies at the expense of our own people. In terms of diplomacy, we should be focusing on trying to court Pamplona or Amber Road or one of the Kus nations like Ealam rather than focusing one of the nations that opposes us the most. We should be going for the lowest hang fruit, not the highest especially when we are so limited in terms of actions, money and everything.
This is just outright lies. We have done nothing to hurt the Khem, especially not sell weapons to their enemies since we have never sold enemies we have never sold guns to Berba or Hellas and we only sold weapons to Abyss after they concluded their war with the Khem. Furthermore, they have never tried to make amends, that was us.
The Khem are the ones who are being hostile to us unprovoked, not the other way around. Making up lies to victim blame the Ymaryn and whitewash the Khem. We have done nothing to provoke their actions and none of their hostile actions were completely avoidable on their part and in no way forced.
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- Location
- United States
I'm fairly certain @noncannon is referring to when we sold bombards to the enemies of the crown during the Khem civil war. Which uh, is obviously a good way to get off to a bad start.
No one, by my reading, is saying to coddle the Khem. Rather they're saying that the road to making an enemy no longer an enemy has to start somewhere, and as the civ controlled by the players (and thus not generic Great Power assholes) the responsibility for such falls primarily onto us.
I personally think that we won't be able to truly have good relations with the Khem until we can meaningfully contest them in all spheres (including naval power), but that doesn't mean we can't start buttering them up now.
...
They aren't gonna ignore us stealing the king of the hill position just because of a nonaggression pact. THE POINT is that they will likely look to other methods to knock down our prestige if they deem it necessary, and if desperate enough, they probably would break it, or try to invalidate it.
The Khem situation is one that really isn't in our favor, and we honestly would be better off if we actually knew what their internal politics was, as it would better help us understand who we are dealing with, and open options...
Ah yes, the great lie about Khemetri having internal factions.
Also, the record doesn't lie:
And yes, we made some belated amends long after the fact, after it become clear that our pattern of disregard had consequences. Before that, we essentially treated them as non-entities.
So no, the Khemetri aren't going to reach out to us: our behavior has them going WTF. But we can, and will fix this with the improved diplomatic corps.
Also, the record doesn't lie:
so yeah, we totally sold guns to their wartime enemies.
And yes, we made some belated amends long after the fact, after it become clear that our pattern of disregard had consequences. Before that, we essentially treated them as non-entities.
So no, the Khemetri aren't going to reach out to us: our behavior has them going WTF. But we can, and will fix this with the improved diplomatic corps.
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[X] Plan Opening Diplomacy
-[X] Influence: Survey Thunder Plateau Province (???%. 1 Year. Resources?)
-[X] Influence: Diplomatic Contact, Pulska (???%. 1 Year.)
-[X] Influence: Diplomatic Contact, Highlanders (???% 1 Year. Possible -Influence)
-[X] Catch up on the latest plays and theological debates (-Stress)
Update: QM has said there's not much point in Internal Factions. Surveying instead the province most likely to get us resources.
Pulska would soon be an important neighbor (either directly, or indirectly through Rus interests), so see what's up with them. Maybe, with our new diplomatic bureau, we can send a Meshamini diplomat or something (religious tolerance FTW).
Highlander diplomacy has been punted into the future for long enough (plus several thousand years). Now that their offensive has stalled, they're most likely to be open to talks.
Last but not least, Balthazar is at 12.9 Stress, far above danger levels; he is a popular figure among the Peahen faction, and doing anything but stress-reducing actions risks that (among other side-effects). As to the action itself, more Plays and Theological Debates to give him exposure to people who actually consider his decisions wise (this narrative hasn't actually panned out, and it may never, but it can't hurt).
...
...
Edit: since a few other plans include it
Note that Calendar reform lasts an expected five years (two years of which are failures). I don't want to commit an Influence dice for that long for a marginal change, not when we still have to win the war and negotiate with the Rus (our patricians might throw a fit). Highlander diplomacy is on a timer; calendar can wait.
-[X] Influence: Survey Thunder Plateau Province (???%. 1 Year. Resources?)
-[X] Influence: Diplomatic Contact, Pulska (???%. 1 Year.)
-[X] Influence: Diplomatic Contact, Highlanders (???% 1 Year. Possible -Influence)
-[X] Catch up on the latest plays and theological debates (-Stress)
The big one is looking into Western Wall. We need to find out more about what possible peace there may be between the Rus and Settlers, rather than just ordering an invasion blindly:
- Whether the Rus might accept a compromise with our oversight, or whether they're just going to fight off everyone seen as an invader.
- Whether the Settlers want to stay or are willing to move back; the Ymaryn population was depleted so there should be plenty of room
- How the Rus actually think of us--which has probably been tainted by Western Wall, but...
Maybe enough snippets of our punishment of Tinshore's former leadership have convinced them that our justice is genuine. Maybe our good treatment of Thunder Plateau has shown that we come as liberators, rather than conquerors. Maybe our restraint with Stymyr, and even Khemetri, have shown us that we have minimal and reasonable war goals, and are likely to treat them fairly at the end.
Pulska would soon be an important neighbor (either directly, or indirectly through Rus interests), so see what's up with them. Maybe, with our new diplomatic bureau, we can send a Meshamini diplomat or something (religious tolerance FTW).
Highlander diplomacy has been punted into the future for long enough (plus several thousand years). Now that their offensive has stalled, they're most likely to be open to talks.
Last but not least, Balthazar is at 12.9 Stress, far above danger levels; he is a popular figure among the Peahen faction, and doing anything but stress-reducing actions risks that (among other side-effects). As to the action itself, more Plays and Theological Debates to give him exposure to people who actually consider his decisions wise (this narrative hasn't actually panned out, and it may never, but it can't hurt).
...
...
Edit: since a few other plans include it
Note that Calendar reform lasts an expected five years (two years of which are failures). I don't want to commit an Influence dice for that long for a marginal change, not when we still have to win the war and negotiate with the Rus (our patricians might throw a fit). Highlander diplomacy is on a timer; calendar can wait.
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- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That action failed due to the diplomats not arriving due to bad weather and it was to the guys who won the civil war and currently sit on the throne.
I want to befriend the Khem, but I want to do so when we deal with the actual issues between us and them right now. Just weakening ourselves and strengthen them isn't going to make them magically like us and ignore their own self-interest. We need to make it in their self-interest to be friends with us and right now, it is in their self-interest to treat us as enemies. It has been confirmed that the Khem are going to act in their own-self interest with no regard for their neighbours so just trying to place nice with them without addressing the actual issues between us and them isn't going to result in friendship, it is going to result in a still hostile Khem.
No, they don't, but they can be misrepresented to show incorrect information such as leaving out the corre dates.
Abyss came to us for weapons in 1600 for guns, but we only sold them in 1601 when the Khem have already collapsed into civil war in 1600. Said civil war which resulted in the Abyss securing and fortifying their borders in 1601 as the Khem fought their civil war instead of continuing their failed offensive war against Abyss.
We did not sell guns to the Abyss while they and the Khem were still fighting and you are knowingly lying about that 'X' being that in 1600.
This is just more willing and knowing lies on your part. I have made it perfectly clear in the past that I want to do an Internal Factions report on the Khem along with setting up a spy network so we can hurt their internal factions who are hostile to us and strengthen those that are friendly to us.
But I guess lying about what about someone else wants to do to make them look worse is preferable to acknowledging what they actually want to do.
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- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Plan Oshha
-[X] Influence: Diplomatic Contact, Pulska: Who are the Pules and what do they want? (???%. 1 Year.)
-[X] Influence: Survey Thunder Plateau Province: The Thunder Mountains have been surveyed many times, but a lot of information about their resource deposits would have been lost in the chaos of the Black Sheep takeover during the Collapse. Additionally, technology and the skill of surveyors is always improving. (???%. 1 Year. Resources?)
-[X] Influence: Calendar Reform: The calendar adopted from the Khemetri in the wake of the Godfist has the disadvantage that the year shifts, losing a day every four years. It had been planned that once a full rotation had been completed, there would be a reform that adds an extra day every four years. However, the Collapse serves as an important enough event that a new calendar that begins at the end of the collapse would be warranted and allow the reform to occur thousands of years ahead of schedule. (60%, 3 years, +1 Influence, better calendar)
-[X] Personal: Relax with Family (-Stress)
Contacting the Pulska again while also doing one of our many survey actions and while I have chosen Greenshore for this, I don't really care what province we do it for. Beyond that, I think we should get started on the Calendar Reform for that extra Influence since it looks like we won't be doing it with Authority anytime soon. Since people seem to still want to reduce stress despite doing it for about a continuous decade at this point, I am going for relaxing with family as the personal action.
Edit: Due to new info from the QM, I have switched to surveying Thunder Plateau for a higher chance of getting useful stuff.
-[X] Influence: Diplomatic Contact, Pulska: Who are the Pules and what do they want? (???%. 1 Year.)
-[X] Influence: Survey Thunder Plateau Province: The Thunder Mountains have been surveyed many times, but a lot of information about their resource deposits would have been lost in the chaos of the Black Sheep takeover during the Collapse. Additionally, technology and the skill of surveyors is always improving. (???%. 1 Year. Resources?)
-[X] Influence: Calendar Reform: The calendar adopted from the Khemetri in the wake of the Godfist has the disadvantage that the year shifts, losing a day every four years. It had been planned that once a full rotation had been completed, there would be a reform that adds an extra day every four years. However, the Collapse serves as an important enough event that a new calendar that begins at the end of the collapse would be warranted and allow the reform to occur thousands of years ahead of schedule. (60%, 3 years, +1 Influence, better calendar)
-[X] Personal: Relax with Family (-Stress)
Contacting the Pulska again while also doing one of our many survey actions and while I have chosen Greenshore for this, I don't really care what province we do it for. Beyond that, I think we should get started on the Calendar Reform for that extra Influence since it looks like we won't be doing it with Authority anytime soon. Since people seem to still want to reduce stress despite doing it for about a continuous decade at this point, I am going for relaxing with family as the personal action.
Edit: Due to new info from the QM, I have switched to surveying Thunder Plateau for a higher chance of getting useful stuff.
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Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
[X] Plan Oshha
@Oshha
I will say that events are squished enough together that the Khem may have already lost by the time we actually sent Abyss the guns (the events taking place in the same mid-turn). I didn't notice that part, so that's a good catch...
But, by the same token, the events are also so close together that it's an easy perception that we sold guns to their enemies (of not a few weeks or months before... and this is assuming they weren't still fighting, in which case we would've sold guns to their wartime enemies in truth).
I will say that events are squished enough together that the Khem may have already lost by the time we actually sent Abyss the guns (the events taking place in the same mid-turn). I didn't notice that part, so that's a good catch...
But, by the same token, the events are also so close together that it's an easy perception that we sold guns to their enemies (of not a few weeks or months before... and this is assuming they weren't still fighting, in which case we would've sold guns to their wartime enemies in truth).
As long as we're agreed on Khemetri not being a gestalt enemy, and having factions that we can influence, that's fine. At the same time, I don't see why we can't already strengthen the traders + trade beneficiaries who are obviously going to be against a disruptive war.
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- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The second year after we recovered from the Collapse and began to do foreign diplomacy, we put an Authority on ensuring we made diplomatic contact with them. That resulted in us making a deal with them and giving them their coveted King of the Hill status.
The year after that we attempted to make further diplomatic contact with them, but that action failed.
So the year after that year we did the same action except with Authority to ensure it succeeded.
We then later attempted to sell guns to the Khem rebels (and the ultimate winners of the civil war) with an Authority and only failed to do so due to the QM making a mistake.
That was it up until the Khem rivalled us a few years later for wrongly blaming us for the backlash of their own actions instead of daring to admit their own actions could have negative consequences. And if you complain that wasn't much, it is more diplomacy than the Ymaryn had done to any other nation at that point. No other nation had received more diplomatic attention from the Ymaryn than the Khem up until the Khem rivalled us. After that, we then took the only Khem diplomacy action we had left, which was an unfavourable trade deal and until 1619, we had no other diplomatic actions towards the Khem after that.
The Khem are not the poor innocent victims of the Ymaryn, they are the unprovoked aggressors who chose to initiate avoidable hostilities because they deemed it to in their self-interest.