Ah thanks. Was Amber Road the origin of Gylruv?
Ymaryn Successor Quest (Paths of Civ AU)
Where is the overall time limit to get everything back? The way I'm reading it we have to be visibly working towards getting (not necessarily by war) some part of the old lands back and making progress every turn or lose influence during turns we don't. No reason the Amber Road colony wouldn't count - our diplomats/warriors are publicly sent out, if they succeed we proclaim that we've got back something of ours - Revanchists are happy for a year or two then they want something else, just like with any other target.
Taking Thunder Plateau back by force is a bastard of a job that will likely stall out several times while tying up so much of our military that we can't make progress anywhere else and Revanchism fucks us anyway. The when we've got it we can't hold it by force. Our economy and military is not strong enough to conquer it without ruining ourselves - we'd need everything else back first and working to have a chance.
Thunder Plateau is huge and far away from our core and there aren't convenient sea lanes to the bulk of it. There's a reason OTL that the Persians moved their capital out of Persia once they had an empire. And the Empire held onto the territory because the populace considered the empire their possession rather than the other way around, even if the Sha an Shah had moved out. If the Black Sheep consider themselves full partners in the great enterprise that is Ymaryn then it's an asset otherwise it's a liability. We might get that by diplomacy, we won't by war.
Taking Thunder Plateau back by force is a bastard of a job that will likely stall out several times while tying up so much of our military that we can't make progress anywhere else and Revanchism fucks us anyway. The when we've got it we can't hold it by force. Our economy and military is not strong enough to conquer it without ruining ourselves - we'd need everything else back first and working to have a chance.
Thunder Plateau is huge and far away from our core and there aren't convenient sea lanes to the bulk of it. There's a reason OTL that the Persians moved their capital out of Persia once they had an empire. And the Empire held onto the territory because the populace considered the empire their possession rather than the other way around, even if the Sha an Shah had moved out. If the Black Sheep consider themselves full partners in the great enterprise that is Ymaryn then it's an asset otherwise it's a liability. We might get that by diplomacy, we won't by war.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
IIRC, no. I vaguely recall WoAN to the effect that amber road fell apart into the native tribes and their advanced tech let the locals nucleate into not!Russia. Gylruv claimed to be a successor to the OYE via Amber Road, but that was about as true as OTL's Holy Roman Empire's claim to be a successor of Rome.
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@Aranfan: If we used diplomacy to convince the barbarians who took the Thunder Plateau to become marcher lords and accept Ymaryn suzerainty, would that satisfy our revanchism flaw? Or do we need to drive the barbarians before us?
Just checking on what the options are.
I have to say, from the information we have so far, trying to re-take the plateau with military force in the next 40 years sounds like a bad idea.
fasquardon
Just checking on what the options are.
I have to say, from the information we have so far, trying to re-take the plateau with military force in the next 40 years sounds like a bad idea.
fasquardon
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
RAGE AGAINST THE STEPPES! + Personal Stewards of Nature says hell the fuck no.
Y'all are the ones who voted to try and tank the tantrum spiral.
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OK. I guess we ride this horse to wherever it goes then...
And are those civ traits we have? I don't see them on the civ sheet. Am I missing something obvious?
fasquardon
- Location
- Hell
However the way it became a thing was due to one of our Northern Marches. Marches were martial dependents on the outskirts of the Ymaryn Empire, usually the north, who do one of three tasks; bulk up their Martial, Feed their army, and go on scouting missions. During the reign of Rulhuthyn, father of Rulwyna, the Stallion March decided to send a scouting party by the river that goes through the steppes until they started dying from cold
Then they met up with people who lived up there and lived like that, saw some big trees, bought some neat yellow stones, warm furs, and came back. Officially it became a Trading Post during the reign of Hertythyn of the God Fist.Pretty sure it was actually the Triple Crown that originated from Amber Road though.
I thought the Kielmyr Triple Crown was !scandinavia, while Amber Road itself is in !Russia
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Reminder that the Volga feeds the Caspian, while Amber Road would be on a river that feeds the Black Sea.
They are traits the Ymaryn had in Paths of Civilization, yeah. I should really put up a thing to explain them for the new peeps.
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- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
There is no hard overall time limit. We got a soft limit on backlash from revanchism killing us by sending us down a death spiral and we have until some point between 1623 and 1628 to get Thunder Plateau back before it gets much harder due to us being seen by the locals as foreign conquerors rather than returning countrymen. Incidentally is why we have a chance of retaking it as we can hold due to the locals considering themselves to be Ymaryn. That is why it is so important to get it before the time limit as once that is up, you will be correct and it will be effective impossible to hold.
I also don't think you understand exactly how revanchism works. We don't have to take new actions towards restoring the empire, we just have to take an action towards it. We could spent several turns trying to take Thunder Plateau and it would keep revanchism at bay due to us actively retrying to reclaim our lost lands. And while we don't have to take it by force, I am not seeing a viable way to do it diplomatically while doing it militarily is possible with several turns of preparation. I also disagree that we can't take it by war. We got the means to do so provided we take careful preparation while we currently lack any diplomatic means of retaking it. The Black Sheep are foreigners as far as anyone is concerned and that both means that they won't buying into the Ymaryn Empire unless we conquer them first and we can't just cut a deal where the Thunder Plateau is technically ours because our revanchists won't stand for barbarians holding de facto control over rightful Ymaryn lands.
In regards to Amber Road, it almost certainly be easier to reclaim Thunder Plateau than Amber Road as we have some means of enforcing our will over there while Amber Road is unlikely to accept extremely faraway overlords after a decade or more of independence. I doubt that even if they still consider themselves Ymaryn that it will be enough for them to just return to the fold. So I don't see it as being a viable way to buy time to take Thunder Plateau because it isn't some low hanging fruit, but the hardest part of the empire to reclaim to the point that even the Ymaryn revanchists aren't going to hold not reclaiming it against us.
To be honest, I don't want to reclaim Thunder Plateau by force and if you can layout a plausible way to retake it via diplomacy, I will happily switch over to trying that. But until you can provide the details of your plan to do it diplomatically, I am going to focus on figuring out ways to do it be force because we have to do it and have no viable ways beyond force.
OK, every time I've written not!Volga in my arguments for the value of the north shore of the Ylthon, substitute not!Dnieper or not!Don as appropriate. The Dnieper would be the RW analogue for the Amber Road route.
edit: Ah, so the time limit effect is for that territory because of cultural drift. I still say for practical reasons we need to complete the circuit of the Ylthon first. Amber Road is closer than the far end of the Thunder Plateau in travel time because there's the navigable river. We are the trading partner that makes their enclave profitable, the heavyweight backup that gives them status beyond their size and many of the traders will be core territory born who were trapped there by the fall. They have every reason to reaffiliate themselves with the rest of Ymaryn once contact is reestablished.
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- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I decided to ask Aranfan about diplomatic options on the Discord and this is how it went down:
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
In case you didn't notice, the tally is missing that Surveying MoS has two Influence on it.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
That's really odd, por que this happen?
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
So future priorities. Barring any unexpected failures, we will have enough Income and Treasury to survive past 1600. Unfortunately, we got to take Thunder Plateau in the 1620s and doing so will take at six years if everything goes perfectly and given that they will most likely not, we are looking at even longer, perhaps as much as a decade.
That means we need to start looking to improve our Treasury. That means we need to continue avoiding Expensive actions as we stockpile money. If we begin the campaign in 1615, we are looking at four loads of income or three if start earlier, which is going to be -0.5 for either -2 or -1.5 at the moment. So we will need to look into improving that. That said, we should have something of a buffer for the Treasury.
In regards to other factors to consider, barring any setbacks, we should finishing rolling out gunpowder weaponry in 1602 while the Guild Industry will finish in 1612. The former should prove useful against the Black Sheep though I'm not sure how helpful it will be. The Guild Industry on the other hand will be very useful and downright critical as it will pay for 50% of the Mass Levy.
We also got confirmation on the Discord that the Khem deal didn't delay the recovery of the Guild Industry:
So we need to increase Income to positive whilst building up a buffer in the Treasury to pay for the half of the Mass Levy costs that isn't covered by the Guild Industry. We can totally do the campaign to retake the Thunder Plateau from the Black Sheep and the difficulty of paying for it will be halved by the Guild Industry. We just need to find a way to put our Income in the positive plus build up a buffer. Ideally we can get positive Income so we can get some more money in the Treasury in 1600, 1605, 1610 and 1615.
Ultimately, it is very doable to get Thunder Plateau back though we will need to retake the rest of the Ymaryn Empire in the meantime to avoid backlash from Revanchism.
I don't know, but I think it is because you had "--[X] 2 dice" twice in the plan so it counted both lines at being the same thing and therefore only counted the former. Like when you choose an action or option twice in a vote, you need to put an 'x2' at the end of the second time you choose it to avoid the Tally thinking you are just making the same vote twice.
That means we need to start looking to improve our Treasury. That means we need to continue avoiding Expensive actions as we stockpile money. If we begin the campaign in 1615, we are looking at four loads of income or three if start earlier, which is going to be -0.5 for either -2 or -1.5 at the moment. So we will need to look into improving that. That said, we should have something of a buffer for the Treasury.
In regards to other factors to consider, barring any setbacks, we should finishing rolling out gunpowder weaponry in 1602 while the Guild Industry will finish in 1612. The former should prove useful against the Black Sheep though I'm not sure how helpful it will be. The Guild Industry on the other hand will be very useful and downright critical as it will pay for 50% of the Mass Levy.
We also got confirmation on the Discord that the Khem deal didn't delay the recovery of the Guild Industry:
So we need to increase Income to positive whilst building up a buffer in the Treasury to pay for the half of the Mass Levy costs that isn't covered by the Guild Industry. We can totally do the campaign to retake the Thunder Plateau from the Black Sheep and the difficulty of paying for it will be halved by the Guild Industry. We just need to find a way to put our Income in the positive plus build up a buffer. Ideally we can get positive Income so we can get some more money in the Treasury in 1600, 1605, 1610 and 1615.
Ultimately, it is very doable to get Thunder Plateau back though we will need to retake the rest of the Ymaryn Empire in the meantime to avoid backlash from Revanchism.
That's really odd, por que this happen?
I don't know, but I think it is because you had "--[X] 2 dice" twice in the plan so it counted both lines at being the same thing and therefore only counted the former. Like when you choose an action or option twice in a vote, you need to put an 'x2' at the end of the second time you choose it to avoid the Tally thinking you are just making the same vote twice.
Control of Hathatyn and Trelli +1.5
Control of Tinshore +0.5
Control of Greenshore + 0.5
Control of Western Wall 0.5
This gives us 3.5 increases. Current -2 become 1 income if all go well. Let us assume we also get a treasury out of taking control. We're looking at 5+ to our treasury.
Sooner or later, we will need to spend money on our navy, but also to spend money in order to make money, such as establishing trading posts or making investments.
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Hills does not give +.5, just the initial one time boost.
This costs us an authority and 3 treasury, gives us an additional income of 1, which we makes it back in 15 years. It's not a very cost effective option. If we weren't trying to focus short term on trying to take on the Black Sheep, it would be something to embark on.
Turn 4 (1597 Andyidh Dyadorn) Results
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Turn 4 (1597 Andyidh Dyadorn) Results
News from Trelli
True to his word, Dafydd has retaken all traditional Hathayan territory. The Hellas Syffronites were completely unable to oppose you on land. Dafydd believes this to be for two reasons. First, they just weren't able to mobilize and command as many men as you are. Your armies pulled from the cities outnumbered them. Then there is the morale difference.
Your enemies are dying at the whim of lords who squeeze them and seem to care little for them. While your soldiers are the ones demanding to march and take back the homes and farms that the Kingdom had spent so long investing in. Your men and women fought with the fury and mettle of professional mercenary companies, even if not the skill, rather than a more normal army of conscripts.
As the successful campaign comes to a close, the city levy is demobilized, the men and women receiving training in useful trades of their choice and receiving spiritual attention from the priests, as is traditional. As Dafydd returns to your side, you breathe a sigh of relief, to once more have his wise council at your left hand.
Sadly, his predictions are troubling. Taking Tinshore or Western Wall will not be as easy as retaking the Hathayan territories. The rebels know how to mobilize a city levy, and have ironworks and forests to make it happen, you will need to raise another to take each of them in all likelyhood. They are People still, and will likely fight with all the fury in defense of their homes as you did against the Great Khan. And you need more warships to keep the supply lines needed to feed any army you do call up.
(+1 Influence)
Control the Hills, Diplomatic
Needed: Authority. Authority + Personal Attention. Roll: Hidden.
As you continue to make the rounds, word of your personal attention to the issue spreads like wild fire. Your diplomats have easier and easier times getting folks to fall in line as the time goes on. By the end of the year, almost the entire Hills region is once more sending taxes. There are a few holdouts, but they can be easily crushed whenever you decide to get around to it.
[+1 Treasury Status, More defensible borders, 4/4 complete]
Deepen Diplomacy, Khem
Needed: Irrelevant, Authority
Once more, you send a permanent envoy to the Khemetri. This time he makes it, opening up significantly more options for diplomacy going forward.
[KMT opinion of you unlocked, actions involving KMT unlocked]
Reestablish Administrative Control, Hathytta
Needed: Irrelevant, Authority
You command the bureaucracy to restore the flow of taxes and information from Hathytta now that their territory is once more whole. Despite some potential hiccups, everything appears to go smoothly. The farms of Hathytta and the great city of Trelli once more send taxes to the palace in Valleyhome.
However, there is a problem. The mines are not sending taxes, in fact, you have heard nothing of them. Were it not for the records of them, and of previous tax receipts, one would think there were never mines there at all. Something is going on, and you don't like it.
[Control of Hathytta restored. +1 Treasury. +1 Influence. +.5 Income from Hathytta. +1 Income from Trelli. .5 income from mines missing.]
Adopt Gunpowder Weaponry
Needed: 11+. Rolled: 72. Success.
Progress continues in adopting and refining these new weapons. [5/10]
Praise the Sun
Needed: ???. Rolled: 43. Successful.
As ever, the Khemetri have paid close attention to the sky and the movements of the stars. They developed complex models of the sky's movements, and also of the stars and especially the wandering stars.
Some enterprising skywatchers took your precision glasswork eyepieces and very carefully and exhaustively tracked the movements of these wanderers. With this new and more precise information, they went to update their models and the world broke. To update the earth centered model would cause epicycles to proliferate beyond all reason. To adopt a sun centered model would only require about as many epicycles as the old earth centered one needed.
Then someone put forth a model where the wanderers moved, not in circles, but rather in ellipses around the sun, the Earth among them. The model's elegance is matched only by the affront of abandoning the perfection of the circle.
No wonder the sun worshipers are enjoying a resurgence. This is going to cause issues, you know it. The priests are already almost ready to stab each other about updating the models of the sky.
[+Heliocentrism?, +Religious Tensions]
Survey Homevalley Province
Needed: ???. Rolled: 42+70=112.
Useless. You found nothing except more coal! Is there a more accursed substance? Mining is unhealthy in the best of circumstances, but Coal Mining is by far the most dangerous. Horror stories from the Styrmyr abound of everlasting firestorms underground. Of miners killed by toxins released by the spirits of coal. Of the poisoning of the earth and air around the mine to an even more extreme degree than the smelter's work.
You know that some foreigners who have failed to adequately manage their forests have resorted to using such an accursed material to fuel their forges. Yet your trees will continue to fuel your ironworks for the foreseeable future, and with the new charcoal bricks it will even be possible to expand the ironworks and forges of the provinces as their forests expand.
Too bad you couldn't find something actually useful.
Survey Memory of Spirits Province
Needed: ???. Rolled: 42+26=68.
Gold! The surveyors have found a new gold mine! It isn't a major one, alas, but any bit helps in these days.
[+.1 Income]
-
Rumor Mill:
Khem on the back foot?: KMT only records victories in their wars, but the victories that have been recorded in the south against Abyss seem to be closer and closer to the traditional KMT borders. Their attempts to expand in the south seem to be meeting stiff resistance now that they have encountered an actual state rather than scattered tribes. Still, Abyss must be powerful indeed to resist the Khemetri.
[X] Plan Oli Intensified
-[X] Authority: Reestablish Administrative Control, Hathytta
-[X] Authority: Deepen Diplomacy, Khemetri
-[X] Influence: Praise the Sun
-[X] Influence: Survey Homevalley Province
--[X] 2 dice
-[X] Influence: Survey Memory of Spirits Province
--[X] 2 dice
-[X] Attend to a particular action personally.
--[X] Control the Hills, Diplomatic
-[X] Authority: Reestablish Administrative Control, Hathytta
-[X] Authority: Deepen Diplomacy, Khemetri
-[X] Influence: Praise the Sun
-[X] Influence: Survey Homevalley Province
--[X] 2 dice
-[X] Influence: Survey Memory of Spirits Province
--[X] 2 dice
-[X] Attend to a particular action personally.
--[X] Control the Hills, Diplomatic
News from Trelli
True to his word, Dafydd has retaken all traditional Hathayan territory. The Hellas Syffronites were completely unable to oppose you on land. Dafydd believes this to be for two reasons. First, they just weren't able to mobilize and command as many men as you are. Your armies pulled from the cities outnumbered them. Then there is the morale difference.
Your enemies are dying at the whim of lords who squeeze them and seem to care little for them. While your soldiers are the ones demanding to march and take back the homes and farms that the Kingdom had spent so long investing in. Your men and women fought with the fury and mettle of professional mercenary companies, even if not the skill, rather than a more normal army of conscripts.
As the successful campaign comes to a close, the city levy is demobilized, the men and women receiving training in useful trades of their choice and receiving spiritual attention from the priests, as is traditional. As Dafydd returns to your side, you breathe a sigh of relief, to once more have his wise council at your left hand.
Sadly, his predictions are troubling. Taking Tinshore or Western Wall will not be as easy as retaking the Hathayan territories. The rebels know how to mobilize a city levy, and have ironworks and forests to make it happen, you will need to raise another to take each of them in all likelyhood. They are People still, and will likely fight with all the fury in defense of their homes as you did against the Great Khan. And you need more warships to keep the supply lines needed to feed any army you do call up.
(+1 Influence)
Control the Hills, Diplomatic
Needed: Authority. Authority + Personal Attention. Roll: Hidden.
As you continue to make the rounds, word of your personal attention to the issue spreads like wild fire. Your diplomats have easier and easier times getting folks to fall in line as the time goes on. By the end of the year, almost the entire Hills region is once more sending taxes. There are a few holdouts, but they can be easily crushed whenever you decide to get around to it.
[+1 Treasury Status, More defensible borders, 4/4 complete]
Deepen Diplomacy, Khem
Needed: Irrelevant, Authority
Once more, you send a permanent envoy to the Khemetri. This time he makes it, opening up significantly more options for diplomacy going forward.
[KMT opinion of you unlocked, actions involving KMT unlocked]
Reestablish Administrative Control, Hathytta
Needed: Irrelevant, Authority
You command the bureaucracy to restore the flow of taxes and information from Hathytta now that their territory is once more whole. Despite some potential hiccups, everything appears to go smoothly. The farms of Hathytta and the great city of Trelli once more send taxes to the palace in Valleyhome.
However, there is a problem. The mines are not sending taxes, in fact, you have heard nothing of them. Were it not for the records of them, and of previous tax receipts, one would think there were never mines there at all. Something is going on, and you don't like it.
[Control of Hathytta restored. +1 Treasury. +1 Influence. +.5 Income from Hathytta. +1 Income from Trelli. .5 income from mines missing.]
Adopt Gunpowder Weaponry
Needed: 11+. Rolled: 72. Success.
Progress continues in adopting and refining these new weapons. [5/10]
Praise the Sun
Needed: ???. Rolled: 43. Successful.
As ever, the Khemetri have paid close attention to the sky and the movements of the stars. They developed complex models of the sky's movements, and also of the stars and especially the wandering stars.
Some enterprising skywatchers took your precision glasswork eyepieces and very carefully and exhaustively tracked the movements of these wanderers. With this new and more precise information, they went to update their models and the world broke. To update the earth centered model would cause epicycles to proliferate beyond all reason. To adopt a sun centered model would only require about as many epicycles as the old earth centered one needed.
Then someone put forth a model where the wanderers moved, not in circles, but rather in ellipses around the sun, the Earth among them. The model's elegance is matched only by the affront of abandoning the perfection of the circle.
No wonder the sun worshipers are enjoying a resurgence. This is going to cause issues, you know it. The priests are already almost ready to stab each other about updating the models of the sky.
[+Heliocentrism?, +Religious Tensions]
Survey Homevalley Province
Needed: ???. Rolled: 42+70=112.
Useless. You found nothing except more coal! Is there a more accursed substance? Mining is unhealthy in the best of circumstances, but Coal Mining is by far the most dangerous. Horror stories from the Styrmyr abound of everlasting firestorms underground. Of miners killed by toxins released by the spirits of coal. Of the poisoning of the earth and air around the mine to an even more extreme degree than the smelter's work.
You know that some foreigners who have failed to adequately manage their forests have resorted to using such an accursed material to fuel their forges. Yet your trees will continue to fuel your ironworks for the foreseeable future, and with the new charcoal bricks it will even be possible to expand the ironworks and forges of the provinces as their forests expand.
Too bad you couldn't find something actually useful.
Survey Memory of Spirits Province
Needed: ???. Rolled: 42+26=68.
Gold! The surveyors have found a new gold mine! It isn't a major one, alas, but any bit helps in these days.
[+.1 Income]
-
Rumor Mill:
Khem on the back foot?: KMT only records victories in their wars, but the victories that have been recorded in the south against Abyss seem to be closer and closer to the traditional KMT borders. Their attempts to expand in the south seem to be meeting stiff resistance now that they have encountered an actual state rather than scattered tribes. Still, Abyss must be powerful indeed to resist the Khemetri.
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taovkool
Forever Gone
- Location
- The Library, Department of General Works
- Location
- New York
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I don't know what else coal is useful for. We could trade in it, I suppose. Perhaps we could get away with highly regulated, inefficient coal mining for safety by undercutting the market for coal?
(I am not an economist)
Or maybe we can bullshit our way into turning coal into diamonds. For the glory and prestige of Ymarn, of course. Can it really be any more impossible then brute forcing survival through the collapse?
(I am not an economist)
Or maybe we can bullshit our way into turning coal into diamonds. For the glory and prestige of Ymarn, of course. Can it really be any more impossible then brute forcing survival through the collapse?
taovkool
Forever Gone
- Location
- The Library, Department of General Works
So why didn't they know about coal??