This talk about Selmy having "too much pride to work alongside sellswords" is absolutely baffling to me. @Duesal is dead wrong. We quite literally see him do so for months in canon ASOIAF without any issues we'd care about.
If we want to loot this high-level martial PC, we absolutely can. We looted Liomond Lashare, who is definitely guilty of worse crimes than Barristan, so why not loot this latest moral coward who's good at swording? Is it just because he isn't as sassy as Liomond?
There's a personal component to things. Yes, it helps that Liomond is Sassy on a meta level. He's a reprobate who actually does have something of a head on his shoulders for things above swording, unlike Bronn, who was at least loosely attached to mass murder of our citizens. And Liomond was undead and working with slavers for pretty much as long as he's been alive--and we can discern well enough that while he's probably loosely grouped into the same class of people who would have treated enslaved people 'well enough', and had no proclivities toward cruelty for cruelty's sake, he wasn't on some moral crusade to free every slave he came upon. He's just a glory hound.

Bronn is a mercenary to the bone, with just a loose desire for lording power over people who did the same to him and a desire for the finer things, with tokens of wealth being the most recognizable path toward both.

So we're not above working with people who care about their own image at least a couple steps above common decency, or even baser desires.

But, unfortunately, he made the mistake of doing all of those things we don't find too many problems with (so long as it serves our purpose) by A) making his claim to fame by 'serving Kings', all three of which we as players and even as characters don't think very much of, or outright despise and B) abrogating any responsibility for the suffering Rhaella or the smallfolk Aerys burned went through by claiming he was "just doing my duty".

It's just the unfortunate bit of having personal attachment to our PoV characters own background.

Now personally, reflecting on Bronn and Liomond, and our reasons we're more open to accepting them as they are, it's because they're fun! They're roguish assholes who entertain us.

Selmy isn't like that. In an ideal arrangement, Selmy doesn't have too many personal interactions with us, in which case there's not much point to his character in the narrative. He brings nothing to the table in terms of plot, other than some vague notion of the past leading into the future, which we have plenty of.

If he does place himself as something of a character who tries to gain our confidence and attempts to interact with us, we sense that... we have no reason to really like him. We can't view him with detached amusement, like 'oh that wacky rogue, I remember I used to survive on the streets with my wits and violence alone'.

We just remember unpleasant things about the past, the taste of failure, at best, if we go with @Azel's interpretation and assume he's just a sycophant out to improve his own image with a looser attachment on his own self importance, or with my interpretation of him as a delusional narcissist, something that wouldn't last long in Viserys' proximity anyway since he abhors self delusion in all its forms.
 
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Perhaps I will also express my opinion, although it is unlikely to affect anything. Selmy is a proud narcissist who first of all wants to be the main knight of the kingdom, wear beautiful white armor, shine in tournaments and receive recognition and honor in the value system of Westeros. And for the sake of this, he is ready to go to questionable actions from a moral point of view.
But I believe that the main question is not whether Selmy is a good person, but whether he can be useful to us. And we will provide loyalty with incentives and control. Besides, as much as Selmy is a shitty person by nature, he has a well-established reputation as a great knight, so his joining us could be useful in terms of PR. In the end, the current Tor is much more deceitful and duplicitous, but we quite use it as our minion.
[X] Sir Barristan Selmy, I release you from your vows.
- [X] My kingdom is too large to manage with just seven knights, so the King's Guard will be disbanded.
- [X] But if you want to serve our Empire, you will have many ways. Get used to the changed realm first, and if you still want to serve me, find me later.
- [X] Just keep in mind that my warriors do not stand behind the throne and shine in tournaments, they go to the farthest corners of the world, where they will fight with the horrors that are preparing to break out into the populated lands.
 
This talk about Selmy having "too much pride to work alongside sellswords" is absolutely baffling to me. @Duesal is dead wrong.
Also, Duesal is the one who claimed Selmy would have no troubles starting from the bottom up in the Legion, though chances are he would find himself as some kind of officer pretty much immediately given his qualifications and also just his force of personality. He would be wasted as a line soldier or a small unit leader.

I'm the one claiming he would find it insulting. He was treated by Dany as a trusted advisor, even reinstated as the head of the same august order he served before under a different monarch, and treated with respect despite aforementioned moral cowardice (who Dany had none of the necessary context to call him out on) and his decade and more years of absence. And if he is indeed not beyond a bit of pragmatism with regards to dealing with others, it's only that he's willing to work with these types with at least one or two degrees of separation between them and him. If you're surrounded by enemies and have no other allies, you don't dismiss your army just because they're violent killers without honor. You point them in the right direction and keep them placated.

I don't really recall if he had many dismissive thoughts over all the cutthroats and mercenaries who were serving Dany at the time. But I would be baffled by the notion of someone explaining that as him being fine with the concept of being a soldier paid to fight and nothing more. The context in this setting for that, repeatedly stated by DP whenever matters of knighthood are relevant, is people of that station generally being dismissive or contemptuous of the concept. While I admit that is liable to change once people realize of the general level of prestige and power these people tend to hold in our political sphere, that narratively shouldn't be an instant thing, and associated professional soldiering (as opposed to living as a member of the martial nobility) with being a respectable career choice.

Not when we haven't even actually integrated Westeros, and the whole narrative beats with this move of ours is how people living there don't really know what to expect, nor fully process the circumstances they find themselves in. It was all well and good to say "I will loyally serve you, Your Grace" when Robert was King, but what they are generally used to is an absentee ruler who does nothing of note, transitioning instantly into a very active ruler who is changing pretty fundamental aspects of life across pretty much every single province and region simultaneously.

If we accepted Barristan right now and played off those failings as "not that big a deal at the end of the day, we've dealt with worse"... what do we do with him? I think basically, nothing.

We have no use for him narratively. On a meta level, players look at him and think, "this is a guy from canon, but I have no strong attachment to him since he did nothing of note for our boy".

We place ourselves into Viserys' shoes on some level, and we view the plucky rogue like Bronn more forgivingly, because we understand what it's like to be a plucky rogue. They amuse us, and on some level we are rooting for them. I think, even, that some portion of that 'they amuse us' bleeds over into Viserys' decision-making, but I can't think of anything amusing with regards to Barristan's introduction to the narrative. Only unpleasant things.
 
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This talk about Selmy having "too much pride to work alongside sellswords" is absolutely baffling to me. @Duesal is dead wrong. We quite literally see him do so for months in canon ASOIAF without any issues we'd care about.
If we want to loot this high-level martial PC, we absolutely can. We looted Liomond Lashare, who is definitely guilty of worse crimes than Barristan, so why not loot this latest moral coward who's good at swording? Is it just because he isn't as sassy as Liomond?
I mean without the status of being above them, Talon. He has knightly pride. He wouldn't take being the peer of a lowborn slave or a sellsword.

And as for reasons not to loot Barristan? This time it's personal. Viserys would never recruit a man who aided in his mother's rape.
 
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Yeah, I think the point that Barristan was an accomplice in Aerys' many crimes by virtue of the fact that he was Kingsguard and did nothing, is enough to earn him nothing from us.

Also, who are the Kingsguard at this point? I know we shanked at least one before Bloodraven exploded, but I imagine most of them are largely the same as canon?
 
Can see Viserys not having a high opinion of the Kingsguard that served Aerys and Rhaegar at the time for many reasons.
 
We have no use for him narratively.
I give zero shits about him narratively either. I just thought it'd be nice to have another high-level martial PC in our forces. I was thinking of sending him off to the Wall, or perhaps to the PoF.

And @Duesal, for a good while he wasn't superior to sellswords anywhere but in the privacy of his own thoughts. He had this whole "I'm a sellsword named Arstan and I'm hiding my identity from everyone so I can see if Daenerys is mad and spy on her for Varys/Illyrio" thing going on, IIRC.
 
Yeah, I dunno. I dunno, guys. It doesn't sit right to me in on some level to admit I find people like Bronn and Liomond charming, but I might as well admit I might be a bit of an asshole myself.

Barristan just... appears, and acts like he's a big deal, but when I see him on screen, I just get this sense of revulsion. Not even aimed at him specifically, just, the entire notion behind the Kingsguard, of which he is not the sole arbitrator of or anything, but definitely a big contributor to their general uselessness as an institution. They couldn't protect the King, and they couldn't do all the things we sort of expect from Knights.

Just two primary examples in this quest of what we expect, at a bare minimum, from anyone who claims to be a Knight:

1) Incredible loyalty. I mean, real, honest, "it's not really to my personal benefit" loyalty. We see that from Richard, who has largely evolved past the notions of personal honor and image, and even past "regaining my ancestral lands". He will take both of those things with a humble sort of acceptance, but wants nothing more than that, and the latter mostly due to sentiment, with the former mostly due to quiet appreciation that they serve as affirmations of our appreciation of his service. But he sticks around now, and will stick around later, due to the love he shares between himself and the Targaryen siblings. The "most loyal knight" is window dressing for the truth.

2) Higher virtue. Waymar wants the concept of Knighthood to mean something. Knights defend the weak and helpless, and they will risk their lives doing very dangerous tasks without much in the way of expectation of glory or wealth. Those things may come, but what's important is doing everything possible not to let others suffer harm when you could prevent it.

If you fail at one of those things, you better not fail at the other one. If you fail at both, what purpose do you even serve? What can you do for me that I can not recruit a Praetorian to do for you?
 
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I give zero shits about him narratively either. I just thought it'd be nice to have another high-level martial PC in our forces. I was thinking of sending him off to the Wall, or perhaps to the PoF.

And @Duesal, for a good while he wasn't superior to sellswords anywhere but in the privacy of his own thoughts. He had this whole "I'm a sellsword named Arstan and I'm hiding my identity from everyone so I can see if Daenerys is mad and spy on her for Varys/Illyrio" thing going on, IIRC.
That's the big difference. He was wandering around in a hedge knight disguise, and even then he was just traveling from one monarch to the next to pledge his sword.

But here, joining the Legion not as an officer but as a common legionnaire as Ser Barristan formerly of the Kingsguard, after Viserys publicly tells him to get lost? His last shreds of pride may as well burst in flames. All his life's work, all that prestige, for nothing, now reduced to the peer of mere commoners.

If I was being charitable I could see Barristan abandoning his pride and joining the Legion so he can serve in some capacity and work his way up in the world, but I don't. He's like Olenna, a relic of the past too old to change with the new age.

Most likely we'd see him march himself to the Wall under some pretense of knightly dignity or something.
 
@TalonofAnathrax, if you really want high level martial PCs that bad, just see if DP lets us recruit more mercenaries from the planes or something. They'd come with none of the narrative baggage, and you'd be able to design their charactersheets to your heart's content. Even with the wars going on there should be plenty loitering around the Opaline Vault and Armun Kelisk waiting for someone to buy their services.
 
Or, how about this, we just got another person who's a Barristan-tier fighter type, one open to the concept of transhumanism.

If it seems like these days high level fighters are just falling in our lap, we should be happy some of them are willing to let us cut tem open and stuff them full of upgrades, not happy to be "so honored" to have such a famed proud warrior race guy 'humbly' offer us his sword.
 
Or, how about this, we just got another person who's a Barristan-tier fighter type, one open to the concept of transhumanism.

If it seems like these days high level fighters are just falling in our lap, we should be happy some of them are willing to let us cut tem open and stuff them full of upgrades, not happy to be "so honored" to have such a famed proud warrior race guy 'humbly' offer us his sword.
That is definitely better. It's always nice when PCs are open to forge upgrades.
 
We could also go the Buttercup option and offer that he can still be our sworn sword if he beats some obvious meme opponent that we've cooked up/recruited, and who everyone not in the know would assume is harmless... Then when it defeats him, we laugh and say no, you don't get to serve us.

Or, I almost want Rhaella to beat the stuffing out of him, to be honest.
 
We could also go the Buttercup option and offer that he can still be our sworn sword if he beats some obvious meme opponent that we've cooked up/recruited, and who everyone not in the know would assume is harmless... Then when it defeats him, we laugh and say no, you don't get to serve us.

Or, I almost want Rhaella to beat the stuffing out of him, to be honest.
No. I don't have it in me to even waste more time on him. The options for Barristan were always "fuck off out of here" or "sure, fall in line with the rest, I'm sure there's some monster thousands of miles away from Court that you could busy yourself killing, don't let the door hit you on the way out".

Actually interacting with him past that point is beating a dead horse.
 
Just finished reading the chapter.

Also, didn't realised you guys disliked Selmy that much.
The dude might not be trustworthy, but why not just give him a posting in Essos or something?

Edit: no wait, changed my mind.

[X] Takesis
 
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Just finished reading the chapter.

Also, didn't realised you guys disliked Selmy that much.
The dude might not be trustworthy, but why not just give him a posting in Essos or something?
IC it's far too personal to Viserys or Daenerys given what he helped Aerys do to Rhaella. Every time someone has hurt their family they've been utterly ruthless in destroying them.

It's frankly an act of mercy that we're just letting him walk away.
 
IC it's far too personal to Viserys or Daenerys given what he helped Aerys do to Rhaella. Every time someone has hurt their family they've been utterly ruthless in destroying them.

It's frankly an act of mercy that we're just letting him walk away.
We're letting him walk away because there's just too many targets worthy of shelling out blame in regards to Aerys getting away with everything he did.

If we take Selmy's head for conveniently forgetting nine out of every ten oaths he swore, we'd have have a bloodier start to our reign than Maegor ever did.
 
We're letting him walk away because there's just too many targets worthy of shelling out blame in regards to Aerys getting away with everything he did.

If we take Selmy's head for conveniently forgetting nine out of every ten oaths he swore, we'd have have a bloodier start to our reign than Maegor ever did.
Exactly. He's just not worth our time.
 
*remembering the thousands of devils we sacrificed to kill the Court of Stars.*

Uh, yeah.....
I honestly just... don't compute that when people bring it up. The Court of Stars are just these weird blue or green or elven aliens who do things without managing to evoke anything resembling human sympathy. Moonsong fits into the same category of "wacky rogue" who nevertheless doesn't have a compassionate bone in her body (but may waste some time cheering up someone she has personal attachment to, but likely just because she's friendly with them, not because she actually understands what they're upset about).

I just mentally wrap that up in the same neat bow of "pest control" that I do when we wipe out cults / cabals of fiends.

Edit: I'm not implying the above is the correct stance to take. The update after we did all this, DP showcased a Fey who was weeping openly and did seem to show some real depth of emotion and character beyond blue and orange morality type Fey.

But we get placed on the business end of that so seldom that it is hard to really correct aforementioned stance in absence of any evidence for it.
 
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I honestly just... don't compute that when people bring it up. The Court of Stars are just these weird blue or green or elven aliens who do things without managing to evoke anything resembling human sympathy. Moonsong fits into the same category of "wacky rogue" who nevertheless doesn't have a compassionate bone in her body (but may waste some time cheering up someone she has personal attachment to, but likely just because she's friendly with them, not because she actually understands what they're upset about).

I just mentally wrap that up in the same neat bow of "pest control" that I do when we wipe out cults / cabals of fiends.

Touché.

Edit: also I think Barristan will either:

A) Betrays us and go to the Lannister(unlikely, but not impossible).

B) Go to the Wall for the Long Night battle.

C) Find a job in the Legion.

And finally
D) Retire as a "honorable knight".
 
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It's yet another messy situation with the edges muddied by how @DragonParadox doesn't actually try clarifying the consequences of those actions we took, and sometimes he allows the narrative to warp slightly to justify our actions when we do something so extreme that ends with many deaths, by making the people we murdered completely incapable of evoking sympathy for them.

I think this has more to do with the fact that the players are just tired of that plotline in general though, and also the fact that there is no reasonable way for these Fey to show that they have more depth to themselves because none of them would risk coming near Viserys without a good reason, and the ones that do have a good reason tend to be the ones who are super powerful and do not feel any need to justify their strange, ethereal existence to us.


also I think Barristan will either:

A) Betrays us and go to the Lannister(unlikely, but not impossible).

B) Go to the Wall for the Long Night battle.

C) Find a job in the Legion.

And finally
D) Retire as a "honorable knight".

There's really not much left for him except for B).
 
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