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[X] Outside the pavilion, where Xia Lin sat beside Zhengui's bulk, staring thoughtfully out into the snow.
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
[X] In her own mind, with Sixiang, pondering the meaning of insights, and the demon gnawing at her heart.
Mmm, I kinda feel like we need to go more fundamental in a way.
If I were to describe LQ's key drivers it would be something like:
Goal: Security and happiness
Method: be the very best like no-one ever was + power of friendship
Method: be the very best like no-one ever was + power of friendship
Addendum?: Be a good person
Ling Qi is driven to be the strongest so that she can be safe and secure, and so be happy. She acquires friends for the dual purpose of happiness (because she doesn't like being lonely) and for the purpose of protection. She additionally appears to maybe have a modifier on all this, which is that she wants to be happy with the actions she takes to achieve security, which could be described as "be a good person" (she strongly associates this in particular with "be a good friend", tying into her goals of friendship).
As described in her advanced insight, and possibly related to her drive to "be a good person" she has internalised the idea that being happy with her friends requires all their desires to be accounted for, and for all of them to be happy. She can't just look at what makes her happy. So far so good.
However, when the actions she feels she needs to take to be the best conflict with the actions she feels she needs to take to make her friends happy, or be a good person, she runs into problems. This may be reflected in her attunement to SCS - she understands how her desires for friends and happiness may constrain her actions, but at the same time one of her deep drivers is to be unconstrained and always growing to be "optimal". Indeed, it may be said that a part of her conceptualisation of "security" is "other people don't have power over me". She is of course capable of dealing with reality, and making compromises in order to optimise her progression - indeed her choosing to follow Renxiang may be seen as one. Ideally Ling Qi would be super powerful and have no gods but her and everything would be fine. But, well, she's not megarich and lives in a society so she has to deal with that, and so she chose the optimal path to achieve the best outcomes she thought she reasonably could for herself and her family.
So hmm. My read is kinda that in this instance, her actions with Renxiang create a conflict because she thinks they were the best for her and Renxiang and their mission. However, it hurt Renxiang, which harms LQ because it makes her feel like a bad friend, and because her and her friends being happy is kind of her ultimately goal - and if the means she's having to take to achieve that goal are making them unhappy then that's kind of a Catch 22 to her.
... alright I'm not sure where I'm going with this now. I never said I had answers. Just thoughts.
EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
Insert Tally
- Location
- At the end of the world
[X] Outside the pavilion, where Xia Lin sat beside Zhengui's bulk, staring thoughtfully out into the snow.
[X] Drifting into the conversation between Gan Guangli and Meng Dan on the Mountain folk, where Hanyi sat listening idly.
Let it go people. I don't want to jump back in that horror show right after we finished it.
[X] Drifting into the conversation between Gan Guangli and Meng Dan on the Mountain folk, where Hanyi sat listening idly.
Let it go people. I don't want to jump back in that horror show right after we finished it.
Jensaarai
Sing Victory Everlasting
- Pronouns
- They/Them
What horror show? What're you talking about?
[X] In her own mind, with Sixiang, pondering the meaning of insights, and the demon gnawing at her heart.
[X] Drifting into the conversation between Gan Guangli and Meng Dan on the Mountain folk, where Hanyi sat listening idly.
- Location
- At the end of the world
Well, how do you name previous chapters? For me it was horror show. I really hated this ark, especially because it was written so well. And pondering on insights means that we will ponder on what just happens too. I had enough depression this last months.
Varder
Tired Cultist
- Location
- Hell
[X] In her own mind, with Sixiang, pondering the meaning of insights, and the demon gnawing at her heart.
We're close to our destination. Ling Qi needs to focus on centering herself and mentally preparing for what is to come. Sixiang would be best for it.
We're close to our destination. Ling Qi needs to focus on centering herself and mentally preparing for what is to come. Sixiang would be best for it.
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I think it's useful to go back to the start of the heart demon, unclouded by muddied waters since,Mmm, so given Heart Demon discussion it may be worth reflecting on what the Heart Demon actually *is*, as the narrative in story has gotten fairly muddled and confused there.
Perhaps the key thing to note is what the heart demon is not: the Zhengui conflict(s). All the stuff with Zhengui has somewhat drawn attention away from the actual heart demon, and coloured a lot of the development there. This occurred easily because the demon was initially sparked by Zhengui and Hanyi being unhappy about LQ almost getting herself killed. With Zhengui's emotional drama following on from there, it is easy to relate all of that to LQ's heart demon. However, they are not the same thing. Zhengui's teenage rebellion and desire to prove himself, LQ's tendency to solo things with her swolness rather than work with others as we increasingly moved away from support, our poor relation and use of Zhengui in terms of cultivation, LQ's hangups over being Zhengui's mother... all of those are separate (though yes there may be underlying character issues with LQ that inform her behaviour across all areas).
Returning to the inciting incident though, what actually caused the internal conflict for Ling Qi was the demand of Zhengui and Hanyi that she limit her actions, in potentially sub-optimal ways, for the sake of keeping them happy. Doing things to work better with Zhengui and make him happy might be somewhat related to that, but solving that specific problem doesn't actually fix the general conflict.
Somewhat crudely, and lacking all nuance, we might describe LQ's heart demon like so:
The original Zhengui/Hanyi demand was an example of her taking a suboptimal course of action for the sake of not causing her family emotional harm. Henceforth, we shall refer to this as a Type 1 conflict. This recent incident was an example (at least as she interpreted it) of her deciding on a course of action that was correct and optimal, but which resulted in her causing Renxiang emotional harm. This is a Type 2 conflict. Both of these describe different facets of the conflict between her goals of being the best in order to be happy and safe (where her happiness relies on her friends also being fulfilled and happy).
The Renxiang conflict then does not necessarily have the same answer as the Zhengui conflict. Moreover, *specific* solutions also do not solve the underlying issue. Finding a way of making LQ happy with her decision here does not necessarily solve the heart demon, just as making Zhengui happy does not. What is needed is a general philosophical answer that can be applied to resolve all such conflicts like these in a way LQ can be happy with. Specific cases may be useful for informing and testing such ideas, but are not necessarily generally applicable.
Okay, so there's a common theme here. First, Zhengui's asking her to fight together, and not take on the hardest parts herself. This is essentially, though not stated outright, asking to be peers. She then immediately thinks about how it would "limit her ability, limit her growth, hinder her cultivation". This is further followed by remembrances of powerful and dangerous entities in the world, and the peak existence she personally strives for to be safe from it all. She makes the promise not to leave her spirits behind. And then, in the aftermath, she impresses on them she can't "slow down".
Ling Qi's gut feeling is that committing to keeping her spirits on the same level as her, keeping them relevant instead of her doing all the hard bits herself, is slowing her down. Making her weaker. That it's a sacrifice on her part. And she's making that sacrifice because she values family, but it conflicts with her own core desire for advancement.
This hasn't been touched on very much, not directly, but it really looks like it's the real driving core of her conflict. The one time it did come up was during the spar between Zhengui and Wang Chao, where Ling Qi had unrealistic expectations for Zhengui and suggested she'd give up cultivation time to get him up to par. Alingge pointed out this is crazy, but that plot thread of commentary got swept away by an ill-considered foray into the mother issue thing. And it hasn't come up since.
The problem is Ling Qi does not have faith in others and can't commit to relying on their strength without feeling like she's betraying her principles by "wasting" time on their development.
But because this hasn't been explored, I'm skeptical Ling Qi can come up with useful answers to it, or even identify the problem, by poking around in her own head with Sixiang. Especially since this recent event with Renxiang doesn't obviously map to the issues.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Mmm, so given Heart Demon discussion it may be worth reflecting on what the Heart Demon actually *is*, as the narrative in story has gotten fairly muddled and confused there.
Perhaps the key thing to note is what the heart demon is not: the Zhengui conflict(s). All the stuff with Zhengui has somewhat drawn attention away from the actual heart demon, and coloured a lot of the development there. This occurred easily because the demon was initially sparked by Zhengui and Hanyi being unhappy about LQ almost getting herself killed. With Zhengui's emotional drama following on from there, it is easy to relate all of that to LQ's heart demon. However, they are not the same thing. Zhengui's teenage rebellion and desire to prove himself, LQ's tendency to solo things with her swolness rather than work with others as we increasingly moved away from support, our poor relation and use of Zhengui in terms of cultivation, LQ's hangups over being Zhengui's mother... all of those are separate (though yes there may be underlying character issues with LQ that inform her behaviour across all areas).
Returning to the inciting incident though, what actually caused the internal conflict for Ling Qi was the demand of Zhengui and Hanyi that she limit her actions, in potentially sub-optimal ways, for the sake of keeping them happy. Doing things to work better with Zhengui and make him happy might be somewhat related to that, but solving that specific problem doesn't actually fix the general conflict.
Somewhat crudely, and lacking all nuance, we might describe LQ's heart demon like so:
The original Zhengui/Hanyi demand was an example of her taking a suboptimal course of action for the sake of not causing her family emotional harm. Henceforth, we shall refer to this as a Type 1 conflict. This recent incident was an example (at least as she interpreted it) of her deciding on a course of action that was correct and optimal, but which resulted in her causing Renxiang emotional harm. This is a Type 2 conflict. Both of these describe different facets of the conflict between her goals of being the best in order to be happy and safe (where her happiness relies on her friends also being fulfilled and happy).
The Renxiang conflict then does not necessarily have the same answer as the Zhengui conflict. Moreover, *specific* solutions also do not solve the underlying issue. Finding a way of making LQ happy with her decision here does not necessarily solve the heart demon, just as making Zhengui happy does not. What is needed is a general philosophical answer that can be applied to resolve all such conflicts like these in a way LQ can be happy with. Specific cases may be useful for informing and testing such ideas, but are not necessarily generally applicable.
This has been gnawing at me, and I think I finally figured out why.
I disagree with the way you are framing the issue in terms of "optimal action" vs "friend's unhappiness". Or... I think that trying to characterize the situation we just had with CRX like that is too reductive. The CRX situation was going to have CRX hurt no matter what. Either we reminded her of Liming, or she breaks out of the dream and remembers Liming, or Liming ASSUMES DIRECT CONTROL. And what course of action was "optimal" there is a matter of much debate. Minimizing risk is a thing, but accepting some risk for a higher payout is also a thing.
No, the CRX situation was much more "Is tough love a thing? Can hurting those you care about, or even letting them be hurt, help them in the long run?" question.
There are layers to this question of course. Degrees and suchlike. As Zhengui says, we aren't willing to let others take responsibility and risk. Hell we threw ourselves neck first in front of an assassin's knife rather than let LanLan be exposed to harm. We are clearly too far into coddling territory. We need to realize that other people need to be allowed to take risks and accept that hurt is sometimes a part of growing stronger and that our friends will be smothered if we don't let them take on responsibilities and risks.
The main thing is making sure we don't go too far in accepting tough love as valid, cause it can definitely go into dark places if you press that button too much.
Ling Qi wants to be strong enough to protect all her stuff. Like family and junk. But I'm not sure framing that, in the context of her heart demon, as "coddling" is really helpful.
The sense I get is honestly an inability or deep hesitation to trust in external strength, the strength of others. Promising not to just do all the hard parts yourself means allowing for others to be on the same level as you, even though they're scrubs. And that makes you a scrub too! Ahhhhhh!
Or so Ling Qi's treacherous inner impulses say. It's more like a... jealousy on the monopoly of power based on abstract implications? Than a direct consequence of her protective desires.
The sense I get is honestly an inability or deep hesitation to trust in external strength, the strength of others. Promising not to just do all the hard parts yourself means allowing for others to be on the same level as you, even though they're scrubs. And that makes you a scrub too! Ahhhhhh!
Or so Ling Qi's treacherous inner impulses say. It's more like a... jealousy on the monopoly of power based on abstract implications? Than a direct consequence of her protective desires.
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[X] In her own mind, with Sixiang, pondering the meaning of insights, and the demon gnawing at her heart.
[] "Sixiang, what is cultivation?"
Going well back into Forge, we learned that cultivation is fundamentally an increasingly lonely path. As you progress you'll find your friends falling behind and your ability to relate to your new peers decreasing until you end up fundamentally, irrevocably alone. As she refuses to stop progressing that is her ultimate fate.
However Ling Qi wants to have a family. Loneliness is a big part of how she got where she is today but her goal is not the maximization of it. She has gathered friends around her and she deeply values those bonds. The idea of losing them horrifies her.
This contradiction means that Ling Qi is both frightened of her own progression yet continues regardless. Thus the Heart Demon.
Enter Sixiang.
As a muse that isn't Sixiang's experience of their own cultivation. Rather they will become increasingly a part of the world as a whole, connected to a vast community of spirits that exceeds human imagination. Separation here is inherently temporary and is, to some extent, their own choice. Instead of ultimately losing the faculties that allow them to connect to other people, they will be improving that ability.
As such I think Sixiang's perspective is extremely valuable for Ling Qi.
[] "Sixiang, what is cultivation?"
Going well back into Forge, we learned that cultivation is fundamentally an increasingly lonely path. As you progress you'll find your friends falling behind and your ability to relate to your new peers decreasing until you end up fundamentally, irrevocably alone. As she refuses to stop progressing that is her ultimate fate.
However Ling Qi wants to have a family. Loneliness is a big part of how she got where she is today but her goal is not the maximization of it. She has gathered friends around her and she deeply values those bonds. The idea of losing them horrifies her.
This contradiction means that Ling Qi is both frightened of her own progression yet continues regardless. Thus the Heart Demon.
Enter Sixiang.
As a muse that isn't Sixiang's experience of their own cultivation. Rather they will become increasingly a part of the world as a whole, connected to a vast community of spirits that exceeds human imagination. Separation here is inherently temporary and is, to some extent, their own choice. Instead of ultimately losing the faculties that allow them to connect to other people, they will be improving that ability.
As such I think Sixiang's perspective is extremely valuable for Ling Qi.
I'll point back to my other post where I discuss Zhengui, and why he's frankly wrong about that when you look at the actual history and incidents (tournament, bandit arc, nomad attack). In brief though Ling Qi has never really coddled Zhengui once he was old enough to actually fight, and if anything his problems came from her being willing to leave him alone and not baby him. Ling Qi might be perhaps a bit too willing to take on too much responsibility herself (as befits the ego of a quest protagonist), but really I think she mostly just allocates risk and resources efficiently.
But yeah, I think Abeo's getting at a key point here:
Like, while LQ will absolutely pursue strong friends for protection and greater power, she ultimately believes that she can also only really rely on herself at the end of the day. And, arguably, she's kind of not wrong? It's easy for Alingge to go "family is also power there is no conflict". Alingge is a member of a viscount clan, and knows that that will be true and she'll have their support and protection whether or not she's green, cyan, or indigo. For Ling Qi though ultimately everything comes down to her being awesome. Indeed, many of her connections she only has because she's super awesome and people expect her to be awesomer. Her family has nothing, and relies entirely on her. Her value to Renxiang relies on her being the very best. Her spirits are, ultimately, weaker and slower in progression than her, being at best rubber-banded. At the end of the day, she needs to be the best. Oh, sure, perhaps when she's indigo or violet one could make a case for stopping. That she would be strong and valuable even if she did not progress any further - but right now? No.
edit: though that point only really addresses the Type 1 conflict with Zhengui? It doesn't really seem to apply to the Renxiang twinge clearly...
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