Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
A but here is the thing. The winning option right now is the "a conservative approach" as you say. After all waiting is hardly a Yolo action.

and I hardly would classify maybe try to talk the other tribes a Yolo either.

(But yes,infiltrating is as Yolo as you can get).
Wait is not a conservative approach, it is a compromise between trying something, anything, and leaving.

Talking to other tribes is dangerous, these are not just some horse nomads living their life and occasionally joining a chaos warband (because notjoining probably makes you lunch), but warbands active in chaos wastes.
Not as bad as infiltration, but not safe either.
 
The earliest listed example of which occurs in 1967 in our own Earth, named after a specific person?

@BoneyM could you tell us if the tone heard by Citharus was labelled according to the real-life phenomenon linked above, or if it had something to do with the occupation of a shepherd?

I'm assuming translation convention - the "always falling, but never getting lower" bit fits too perfectly for it to be unrelated.
 
then it's a good thing I'm not advocating for sitting around for a day before leaving.

Not having come here in the first place was the least risky option, leaving now earns us all the risks of an expedition to the chaos wastes without achieving our goals
Our main goal has been acchieved (and thanks to vlag, gone way beyond), now people are trying to either run up the scoreboard or operating on sunk cost.
We are here, do we increase risks for potentially no gain, or get out with the success we have already acchieved.
 
disturbingly familiar forest
Drakwald, Laurelorn, or Forest of Shadows
We know Mathilde has visited the Eonir so that's a connection to Laurelorn, so there's a possibility the forest has something to do with the Eonir. The divine energy we're seeing may have something to do with an elf god. Additionally we know the Eonir are interested in the waystones.

I don't think Mathilde has been to the other two possible forest options which increases the chances of that even more.
 
I was unaware Borek was psychic, and if he isn't then he might still be in debriefing.

The reason for this might not be immaterial if the dwarves of Dum are too ashamed to show their faces, us going to them would be something they can't ignore

You are proposing we treat the dwarfs of Dun like moody teenagers we have to guilt out of their room. They know we are in need of aid and yet they are not rendering it. How about we stop trying to come up with excuses?

Are you ignoring word of QM, or do you also propose that we evacuate all of Stirland?

It's almost like ambient Dhar levels can change or something. Storms of magic happen, up here they happen at the whim of the Dark Gods as do countles other calamities.
 
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And she did all of those personally. Like, she specifically asked to personally participate in the tortures and assassinations.

She so far hasn't let other people be subjected to something she wouldn't do herself, and I don't think this is where she should start.

I somehow doubt Mathilde would like to be subjected to torture or assassination. The volunteer is, under this analogy, the "victim" of the unheroic deed rather than its perpetrator.
 
Theres no way to infiltrate the Karak with out magic which we cant/shouldnt use given it could chaos spawn us and frankly making that gamble IC would be utterly insane.

So maybe the Dum Dwarves have turned to law god worship neato burito, still time to leave. Guilds will grudge every dwarven guild member that worships a different god. So no evacuation.

Theres no path to rescuing or evacing them, they didnt respond to communication attempts so dont want our help either. Thats with Borek having had time to communicate they know our good intentions and dont care.

This isnt like last update where we didnt try to communicate theres nothing left for us now.
 
Our main goal has been acchieved (and thanks to vlag, gone way beyond), now people are trying to either run up the scoreboard or operating on sunk cost.
We are here, do we increase risks for potentially no gain, or get out with the success we have already acchieved.
Really, what is the situation of Karag Dum then, in terms precise enough to remove the chance of a Grudge being declared wrongly?
 
Wait is not a conservative approach, it is a compromise between trying something, anything, and leaving.

Talking to other tribes is dangerous, these are not just some horse nomads living their life and occasionally joining a chaos warband (because notjoining probably makes you lunch), but warbands active in chaos wastes.
Not as bad as infiltration, but not safe either.
Considering I want a balance between safe (no I am not infiltrating that place alone) and smart ( sitting on our ass and turning tail with no info isn't smart).

They are perfectly fine choices.
 
Honestly, at this point I may agree that it is rational to leave... if they do not answer, they abandon the right to be heard.

Fair enough, but these are dwarves. Their standard response to any sort of unorthodoxy or shamefulness is stewing in silence (see the entire Karak Hirn business).

Then why come to the expedition at all?

I feel like a significant portion of the 'leave' faction are people that did not want to come in the first place, and see their chance to persuade the rest to return now that we've run into an obstacle that we can't easily and immediately resolve. Mind, they're allowed to and it's a reasonably valid point, but they're operating under different parameters than voters who wanted to come, aware of the risks the expedition entailed.
 
I think what is happening at Dum is most likely to be a mix of different effects, and a plan long in the making as a contingency. If you break it down with the Dwarves having a never Chaos belief and experienced this for thousands of years, then you understand that the dangers they are facing comes from 1) Magic Saturation and The Environment, and 2) The Chaos Warriors themselves.

They have the Waystone that in the past may have sufficed to create a livable level of magic saturation, particularly if you limit your time spent outside but as the chaos wastes gradually expanded and the magic got more saturated this natural ability may have gotten overwelmed. Or perhaps more likely, the Dwarves themselves need to physically be outside for some certain period of time to collect resources but the dangers of that just gradually increased. So fundamentally they needed a better way to turn their environment towards their advantage, and to reduce the magic saturation levels.

The second problem is rather more obvious and one that the Dwarves as a race have been facing for millennia, that of more enemies constantly fighting them and wearing them down over time. With Chaos as a foe with it's wide influence and at times demons literally at your doorstep, this is all the more the case. So fundamentally they needed an armed barrier to be able to supplement their forces, if not manage it themselves to minimize the attrition to themselves.

So while the "what happened" may not necessarily be figured out, the "why" does as this seems to have fundamentally addressed both things, and given we know that the flow of energy down the Waystone remains pure they are very much still Dwarves and not just another version of Dhar Dwarves (not chaos ones obviously). They just may not be Dwarves as acceptable to the Karaz Ankor, or at least not acceptable enough to be willing to provide help, when they're in a situation that the environment itself could be killing them hence Borek's act. Prime example being Thorgrim's response when Mathilde asked for help during the Waaagh.

When you theorize it, and Mathilde should have all the knowledge needed, the Runecrafters/Runemasters of Karag Dum should realistically be the most skilled and potentially learned in the entire Karaz Ankor. We know from the Demon's blood experiment that Runes take energy from the winds to power themselves, so Runes that are placed in the north should understandably be more powerful or at least more consistent if there is more to draw on. This goes further if you consider runes that are no long effective further south and thus gradually over time were forgotten, would have still worked so far up north, and given what we know of Runecrafters and Dwarves in general they wouldn't really be inclined to share this knowledge. Then there's the casual knowledge of the Waystones that Borek displayed that is unknown to other kings, but it'd make sense for that to be more known here if it's not only core to the running of the Valaya runes themselves, but reducing the saturation to livable levels for them. Plus if you are aware of both the Waystones and the wider impact Runes can have on a large scale, there is obvious potential for further experimentation on other wide effects. Such as what is happening here, which is the beginning of the answer for "how" they are doing it if not an explanation of the mechanics of it.

Finally is the what, and given the two different effects in place you can take them separately given they serve different purposes. We already know the chaos wastes are very mutable and themselves are also capable of translocation (that soldiers childhood house = maybe Chekovs gun), so if you understand that they are capable of that naturally, you can likely direct towards things more beneficial for your purposes. We also know that translocation is possible from other areas such as the various magics that can do it, the Wood Elves with their world roots, but importantly for this the Beastmen themselves showing a similar capacity to travel between separate forests without crossing the land enabling them to crusade or "gather from all across the world" that has been mentioned in canon. With the Karag disguising itself as a Legendary Herdstone, as well as some manner of controlling Morghur himself, you now have a way to rally a force from the entire planet itself with which to defend you and a reason to do so given how their behavior around Herdstones have been described. Who knows how the dwarves could have theorized this one up honestly, but it wasn't shocking for Borek to see it, and I've got to say it undoubtedly works. Perhaps they had contact with one of the Wood Elf factions particularly as they also have their own Waystone network that powers their own stuff, and they sort of collaborated on taking out a respawnable enemy and threat. The Dwarves get a disposable ablative shield, the Wood Elves neuter their enemy and can claim more forest for themselves. This would also be another reason to keep it hush, given the various attitudes towards Elves. Though this doesn't really explain Morghur's affectionate attitude.

The changing of the surroundings into the desert is more simplified given on the one hand you've got Karag Dum in the chaos wastes constantly saturated in magic, and on the other hand an area from the equator furthest from the Polar Gates. If you can figure out a mechanism to get the translocation started, it may be easier to continue given the natural mutability of the chaos wastes particularly if mechanically "magical pressure" is a thing and it would prefer to stabilize itself and travel to a low energy place. This may even be an explanation for Mathilde on why and how the Winds blow the direction they do. Regardless, this is literally the Dwarven way of declaring a war on the chaos environment itself to get rid of it as well as to ensure it's more survivable for themselves. The sand itself isn't even necessarily permanent either, as over time it can be terraformed into fertile land particularly if you have a biome nearby such as that handy forest.

This would also more than explain the Yusak's disfavor with the Chaos God's if the Dwarves entire plan is self sustaining, for as long as Morghur remains within their control. The more magic in the air = the faster it grows, the less magic in the air = the slower it grows.
 
I'm partial to a parlay.

[x] Fortify here and see if anything interesting happens over the next day
[x] Attempt to approach Morghur to see if he can be communicated with
 
I feel like a significant portion of the 'leave' faction are people that did not want to come in the first place, and see their chance to persuade the rest to return now that we've run into an obstacle that we can't easily and immediately resolve. Mind, they're allowed to and it's a reasonably valid point, but they're operating under different parameters than voters who wanted to come, aware of the risks the expedition entailed.

Then you feel wrong, I voted to come on the expedition that was with the tacit understanding that we might be leaving Dum having achieved very little. The Karak Dum dwarves do not want to be evacuated, we've had time to try and communicate with them via Semphore flags there's been no response, Borek is with them and could have communicated, there's been no response. They do not want rescue or evacuation. There's no way to bolster or reinforce them that's meaningful. There's nothing left we can do except try and plunder Karak Dum for their secrets and we don't have access to magic to do it because Morghur is right bloody there.
 
Thinking of dwarves and gods, they don't just worship the big five Ancestor Gods, they're just the Gods that all dwarves universally revere. They also, as a standard, worship their Clan Ancestors. That's, as I understand it, part of what makes Living Ancestors special, as they are, in some ways, seen as incarnate (demi?)gods.

I think Tome of Salvation also mentions Imperial Dwaves taking part in the worship of Sigmar as well as their own gods (as part of the Empire's civic religion?). It's not as if a god and worshipper's relationship is exclusive. Each god has many worshippers and each worshipper has many gods.

In terms of divine magic and gods, there's at least one canon runic item made by a runesmith that had fallen to chaos with dwarven runes empowered by the Chaos Gods (the Chaos Runesword). This may be something similar, but with an order god.
 
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For those saying that we've completed the mission of the Expedition, we haven't.
"Bold," you comment, your gaze meeting Snorri's who has an expression of profound tiredness. You wonder how long it took Borek to be talked into potentially putting it off for even that long. "What is the mission of the Expedition, precisely?"

"We'll see," Borek says.

"Evacuation," Gotrek and Snorri say at the same time.

"We'll see," Borek repeats firmly. "Our Norse kinfolk lasted near four thousand years. Karag Dum will not have fallen in a mere two hundred. If we can establish a new road to them..."
Our goal (discounting Borek) was to evacuate whaever dawi who are still holding out in Karag Dum. And right now, we have absolutely no idea what's happening in there nor if we are effectively abandoning innocent lives to have their souls eaten by the Warp knows what.

You might say that our expedition has de facto failed and we should just turn around -Borek certainly seems to think so-, but that is a very different statement than we should go home triumphant because mission accomplished.
 
Depends on how big it was. If it would have been suicide to fight it you bet we would have.

Then why leave now instead of just waiting a day?

If you'd have been willing to fight an army of daemons (if it's not a suicide) then why are you so unwilling to just wait a day more to leave? Or, well, in general, to do any of the actions that are far less risky than just fighting a literal army of daemons, like talking to the Kurgans?
 
Do we give a damn if a grudge is declared rightly wrongly or otherwise? They are beyond the power of the Karaz Ankor to ever interact with.
That's an interesting hypothesis, I think the fact that we were sent by the Karaz Ankor to interact with them disproves it though. I for one do give a damn if entire sections of rune knowledge are cast away on the grounds that it might belong to someone else, yes. I give a damn about the knowledge of how to beat back the chaos wastes being lost. I give a damn about walking away from a potential rennaisance of rune knowledge that would come from a dum runemaster travelling south and taking apprentices, yes.
 
Then why leave now instead of just waiting a day?

If you'd have been willing to fight an army of daemons (if it's not a suicide) then why are you so unwilling to just wait a day more to leave? Or, well, in general, to do any of the actions that are far less risky than just fighting a literal army of daemons, like talking to the Kurgans?

Because every day we're here with no realistic good outcome is another day every one in the expedition is inundated with dhar for no purpose? Going to Karak Dum was about evacuating the dwarves there and pulling the survivors out, they don't want to be evacuated. There's nothing sensible we can do. Trying to infiltrate the Karak with Magic is suicide and without magic Mathilde doesn't have the skills to infiltrate through a forest of beastmen and even after that she'll almost certainly not find an entrance to infiltrate through.

That's an interesting hypothesis, I think the fact that we were sent by the Karaz Ankor to interact with them disproves it though. I for one do give a damn if entire sections of rune knowledge are cast away on the grounds that it might belong to someone else, yes. I give a damn about the knowledge of how to beat back the chaos wastes being lost. I give a damn about walking away from a potential rennaisance of rune knowledge that would come from a dum runemaster travelling south and taking apprentices, yes.

We weren't sent by the Karaz-Ankor, this is a private venture funded by Borek to gather reinforcements for Dum, it's been sponsored by Belegar and Karak Zhufbar it's not a venture with the favour of the high king. There's no realistic way to get into the Karak and the dwarves inside don't want to communicate.
 
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Do we give a damn if a grudge is declared rightly wrongly or otherwise?

Well, even if that would be the only thing at stake (which it isn't, considering that something in Dum is transmuting chaos wastes into inert desert), yes? Mathilde is a deeply moral person in her own way, and cares deeply for the Dwarves and the Karaz Ankor. Seeing an entire hold struck from the Karaz Ankor and a grudge leveled unjustified (even if it is de facto unenforceable) would strike her as profoundly unjust, I imagine?
 
Really, what is the situation of Karag Dum then, in terms precise enough to remove the chance of a Grudge being declared wrongly?
Situation is that the Karag is lost to us and i have hard time imagining we will learn anything that would stop a grudge from being declared.
Borek did not seem to think there was anything left to learn, and he seemed much more informed than us.

Considering I want a balance between safe (no I am not infiltrating that place alone) and smart ( sitting on our ass and turning tail with no info isn't smart).

They are perfectly fine choices.
Sitting on our asses is not safe, and leaving with what we have acchieved instead of risking all the lives under our care is smart.
 
Then why leave now instead of just waiting a day?

Because this place is inherently dangerous

That's an interesting hypothesis, I think the fact that we were sent by the Karaz Ankor to interact with them disproves it though. I for one do give a damn if entire sections of rune knowledge are cast away on the grounds that it might belong to someone else, yes. I give a damn about the knowledge of how to beat back the chaos wastes being lost. I give a damn about walking away from a potential rennaisance of rune knowledge that would come from a dum runemaster travelling south and taking apprentices, yes.

The dwarfs are refusing to talk to us, it is almost assured they will continue to talk to us being dwarfs and thus very stubborn. Even if they were to render us some minimum age they would not give us rune lore because that only exists within the brains of living runemasters (the most shamed among them). Thus I consider the above a pipe dream.
 
[X] Leave

that said some speculation. I think that the Rune masters managed to do something like create runes for the gods of other races see there is one god of the Tomb Kings still active their death god. So use that to spread a wave of death for chaos around the stone then use Isha and Kuronus to bring life and purification for resources and to bind the beasts. As for why they would do this if they knew about the network supporting the protections of the holds maybe the gave it up to extend the other holds power rather than using what they collected to protect them selves. We are unlikely to ever know if this is the truth but something to think about.
 
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