It's a Girl's World -- And Lilly wants Adventure

..

Lol what?

This is a puzzle game, but not an asshole genie GM game. "This thing that's stated to help ground yourself and reinforce everyone else around you is actually a secret brainwashing cult leader power" is... Uh, a hell of a take.

And knowing what we know now? Martin's decision makes sense. We were dealing with a jailbroken dungeon that was corrupting the forest--even if we got to our {Locus}, we'd be fighting the enemy in the area they're strongest. Getting us a level up while also forcing their corruption back before getting us to our {Locus} is actually a really sound strategy. Because it gives us time to make that link without being attacked by--I dunno, shit like the corrupting Essence spikes it opened the fight with while we're occupied in the physical realm?

Being the rock people can lean on in hard times is a tactic cults use to recruit vulnerable people. It's also how family members and friends help each other in times of need. Assuming brainwashing is a stretch.

Also if there is any ethos I'd see in a cult leader, it's probably Reverend Advocate from before. (It would also be useful in say a reformist or revolutionary)

For healing dad I think we need either.
[Milestone-Essence] Shaping - Intuit (DC 60)
[Milestone-Essence] Shaping - Directed (DC 60)
or
[Milestone-Power] {Collective Communion} (x150%) (DC 40x1.5=60)

It helps better connect to conscious beings. And it also has technically directed shaping constructs even if they act as intuit shaping.
Because the infection in pops-es soul can't be brute-forced out. We need some advanced tools. Or at least we can't brute force it out at our current level. Golden rapture sounds like the brute force, lots of power, and even more power, kind of option.
I think that Golden Rapture is a dead end, it's good for empowering armies, feeding them essence to recharge their pith, used for recompense... but it doesn't do much for us personally. We won't be in large scale battles that will benefit it. And for dad we need finer control which, if I'm reading things right, is part of collective communion.

Alectai said:

Lol what?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

There's a lot of talking about needing protection against brainwashing. And reinforcing Lilly as she is now so she doesn't become something alien, instead of making Lilly more Lilly. On reflection that's mind controlly too.
Yet everyone has so far ignored the latter part of my resolution, thy bedrock. It only makes sense for it to be just as much a mind control power, you are the object around which all others come to orbit. Your resolution is the ground they stand on.
I hardly see any other connection, it reinforces your own beliefs. Makes them fact, makes it so that the world must accommodate. And it is so that others latch on, find peace in it, or if they have no purpose or lost purpose you help them discover theirs anew.

Edifier said:

The best plan would have been to let the soldiers handle it on their own, as we've been repeatedly told that they would have managed it just fine without us, and while they were distracted go to the tree. Now, I'm not so confident we can slip under their notice and sneak there.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Soldiers would have died had we not been there. Like this is only true if you dont value some of those peoples lives.

Slyvena said:

If you read her 'Pick Me' Ethos pitch, she aludded to knowing of some weird family connection between the two of you. She wasn't expecting to find what she did though..


Honestly the whole party would have probably still won without you. The Ambush was way more than what they were expecting, but most if not all of the forward group would have likely survived along with at least one of the rear.
Of course you probably want to ask yourself why Captain Martin took such a small group in in the first place.
Mystery abounds.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Like yeah they would have probably succeeded but there would have absolutely been casualties. I value their lives, and going with them was the right choice.

Edifier said:

Yet everyone has so far ignored the latter part of my resolution, thy bedrock. It only makes sense for it to be just as much a mind control power, you are the object around which all others come to orbit. Your resolution is the ground they stand on.
I hardly see any other connection, it reinforces your own beliefs. Makes them fact, makes it so that the world must accommodate. And it is so that others latch on, find peace in it, or if they have no purpose or lost purpose you help them discover theirs anew.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Have you ever been held by someone while you are crying? When you are feeling awful it can be really important to have someone who is there to be your rock. The ethos refers to helping people from losing stuff they want lost, helping people put themselves get back together again. No one has ignored it at all. Plenty are voting it because they want to help dad in his time of need.

Edifier said:

For healing dad I think we need either.
[Milestone-Essence] Shaping - Intuit (DC 60)
[Milestone-Essence] Shaping - Directed (DC 60)
or
[Milestone-Power] {Collective Communion} (x150%) (DC 40x1.5=60)

It helps better connect to conscious beings. And it also has technically directed shaping constructs even if they act as intuit shaping.
Because the infection in pops-es soul can't be brute-forced out. We need some advanced tools. Or at least we can't brute force it out at our current level. Golden rapture sounds like the brute force, lots of power, and even more power, kind of option.
I think that Golden Rapture is a dead end, it's good for empowering armies, feeding them essence to recharge their pith, used for recompense... but it doesn't do much for us personally. We won't be in large scale battles that will benefit it. And for dad we need finer control which, if I'm reading things right, is part of collective communion.

There's a lot of talking about needing protection against brainwashing. And reinforcing Lilly as she is now so she doesn't become something alien, instead of making Lilly more Lilly. On reflection that's mind controlly too.
Yet everyone has so far ignored the latter part of my resolution, thy bedrock. It only makes sense for it to be just as much a mind control power, you are the object around which all others come to orbit. Your resolution is the ground they stand on.
I hardly see any other connection, it reinforces your own beliefs. Makes them fact, makes it so that the world must accommodate. And it is so that others latch on, find peace in it, or if they have no purpose or lost purpose you help them discover theirs anew.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Golden Rapture is literally the fundamental building block that [Dream Within the Forest] builds off of, everything that comes afterwards springs out of something that Golden Rapture started.

And your definition of Mind Controlly and evil is so... Insanely broad that it's functionally meaningless. Something like this isn't about "Never change, and nobody around me ever changes either", it's "In a chaotic world, at least I can trust that I'm standing on something". Oh sure, it can be twisted in a bad direction if you really decide you want it that way, but just about anything in this setting can be twisted in a bad direction if you intentionally try twisting it in a bad direction. Our current primary Ethos could absolutely be a horrifying thing if we decided to be a little dark lady in training.

"Whatever else changes, I intend to remain something I can recognize as myself" is not a bad thing. A self-definition of "Whatever I happen to feel like at the time is me" is utterly meaningless, and ripe for subversion by anything that can just plant something else in that loose sand that is your belief system, and given Lilly's rapidly escalating nature. Having a rock solid foundation to build on is critical. That this is spread out is a symptom of this being an Essence based Ethos, which seems to consider connections to be a key element. Nobody exists in isolation and anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you.

Like, come on man, you're picking out specific words and going "AH-HAH! This means the rest of the implications are clearly fake and everyone voting for it is falling into the trap!"

A puzzle game stops being fun the moment you learn the one running the game is trying to screw you, which is exactly what "Oh this one particular word I used changes the context into this is actually a cult leader and picking it is bad end bait" means.

Also Golden Rapture is all about the links of essence that tie people/everything together. Expanding that and getting better could easily help our healing as that is currently how we heal. I agree that improving our shaping is probably better for healing but like assuming its a dead end is weird. And like unless we completely hermit it up, we should probably be dealing with people a lot so stuff that empowers people is definitely no dead end.

GlassMask said:

Also Golden Rapture is all about the links of essence that tie people/everything together. Expanding that and getting better could easily help our healing as that is currently how we heal. I agree that improving our shaping is probably better for healing but like assuming its a dead end is weird. And like unless we completely hermit it up, we should probably be dealing with people a lot so stuff that empowers people is definitely no dead end.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Part that, but also, I would point something out.

Our core "Handle Source" tracks?

They're Ethos Agnostic.

If we pick up an Essence Ethos that focuses on internal stuff projecting outward (As opposed to channelling outward power), we'll get the best of both worlds. Lilly's fundamental weakness at the moment is that her inner Essence awareness and her ability to make Essence do what she wants instead of what it wants to do are shitty. And she has No Innate Essence whatsoever.

Bedrock looks like it's internally focused, at the very least it has an Innate Essence supply and probably good Essence Awareness. I suspect the big perk of grabbing two Ethae in the same Source is that you use the best stats, and it causes both Ethae to be able to grow in ways that would normally be impossible.

Ok, gonna actually vote for once instead of forgetting.

[X] Plan: Rise Young Girl To the Heavens like a Legend! (Hopefully with less tang)

{Locuses} (though maybe not Prime Trees in specific) didn't seem to surprise Captain Martin, so I assume they're common for people on the druidic tech-tree. So, from the start, they could already assume we had a locus, so our giving that fact away might not have been all that damaging.

I don't think the Captain even knows where our Prime Tree is (at most the general direction, if Lilly straight-up pointed) since he denied our request to lead him there. Then again, for all I know, the essence connection provides an outright minimap and Lilly put up a marker only for the Captain to go "lol no sidequest". @Slyvena: how much does he know?

Edifier said:

I'm pretty sure that my resolution, thy bedrock is a brainwashing power. A cult leader power.
You and your belief is the foundation around which your flock and sheep live their lives around. No one here has pointed out that it refers a lot to the meek, coming to or being pulled to, orbiting Lilly's ever self-reinforcing resolution.
Sounds entertaining.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Alectai said:

"This thing that's stated to help ground yourself and reinforce everyone else around you is actually a secret brainwashing cult leader power" is... Uh, a hell of a take.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

GlassMask said:

Being the rock people can lean on in hard times is a tactic cults use to recruit vulnerable people. It's also how family members and friends help each other in times of need. Assuming brainwashing is a stretch.

Also if there is any ethos I'd see in a cult leader, it's probably Reverend Advocate from before. (It would also be useful in say a reformist or revolutionary)

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Actually, I think there is a danger that the power may make us and the people it affects less able to change, less open to exploration, less able to be persuaded (whether or not we should); more blindly conservative, in short, reverting to an initial state whose definition isn't quite clear.

(This would count as a form of brainwashing, though not of the cult-like kind, at least at first. It's possible that our thralls helpees would actively come to fear change, and then become dependent on us, and then it would be a cult.)

It's not a big danger compared to the opposing danger of getting enemy-brainwashed/Valarie'd/insufficiently human'd for quest purposes, so I still voted for it. Or tried to, at least. Perhaps the residual doubt had opened my mind enough to... there was some kind of maiden in that one paragraph.. what was I talking about again?

...

Edit:

Edifier said:

Yet everyone has so far ignored the latter part of my resolution, thy bedrock. It only makes sense for it to be just as much a mind control power, you are the object around which all others come to orbit. Your resolution is the ground they stand on.
I hardly see any other connection, it reinforces your own beliefs. Makes them fact, makes it so that the world must accommodate. And it is so that others latch on, find peace in it, or if they have no purpose or lost purpose you help them discover theirs anew.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

This is... surprisingly convincing. Damn but that ethos title is suggestive.

However, the description suggests otherwise, so I wouldn't worry about it.

[X] Plan: Rise Young Girl To the Heavens like a Legend! (Hopefully with less tang)
I concur with Alectai's council and am willing to back his vote.
Mind control? What are you talking about?

noncannon said:

@Slyvena: how much does he know?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Rough direction and distance. Not from the Essence Link, just your description when trying to convince him to detour.

[My Resolution, Thy Bedrock] (Common): (Essence)
The danger of slowly losing track of who we set out to be is one so terrifying most choose to deliberately ignore it. You need not ever fear becoming what you are not, the truth of your origins will only grow deeper and more firm over time. Others will find themselves more solid and at ease in your presence. Decay will pause, decoherence will suspend, unravelling will be held in place. Whatever someone has been, you can always help them rediscover; no matter how lost they have become. Your very nature is a firm foundation on which the unstable may gain respite. You are the objective constant around which change must orbit.

One of the nice things about this is that its a defensive/supportive ethos designed around around keeping people safe and stable. I suspect that we can get a lot of mileage out of this not only because of valerie, but just because we can afford to go full turtle with it. We already have other ethos with offensive capabilities, we can use this where it shines the best.

Anyway, yeah, re-reading that. Nothing about that text screams "CULT LEADER"

It says that "You don't need to fear becoming something you're not, because you won't lose sight of where you came from. Others find themselves in better footing in your presence, Decay pauses, decoherence suspends, unravelling is held."

It's literally saying "You won't forget what made you what you are, and you won't let the flow of change turn you into something you're not. You are the example that reminds people why they're doing this in the first place"

More importantly, it's an Essence Ethos, and as such it will benefit from Lilly's present understanding of Essence as a generally positive and uplifting thing. I don't see this suddenly secretly turning out to be evil cult leader mode or stifling our growth in light of that.

It's like telling the rich man not to forget there was a time where he was poor, like telling the hero that he was a peasant once too. It's reminding Superman that about the country farm he was raised on. It's about not letting your current circumstances distract you from the core of your being. And that seems really important given how the universe seems hell bent on kicking Lilly's support structures out from under her.

It takes some really tortured reading to flip that into a flaw

It has never been a flaw. At least I never saw my words as describing a flaw or some negative aspect.
It's what my mind jumps to foremost. And since everyone so far had been ignoring that it's explicitly an ethos that's about her resolutions to be the bedrock for others to adapt to. It's got a social element to it, ones that force others to adapt to Lilly or flock to for peace of mind and spirit.
It's going to be more versatile than simply reinforcing and amplifying your own self-identity. As the tooltip says "You'll be the objective constant around which change must orbit."

I wouldn't be surprised if it has healing capabilities either out of the gate or very soon as well. It's all about keeping yourself as well as other people whole, well and safe.

noncannon said:

This is... surprisingly convincing. Damn but that ethos title is suggestive.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Ehhh... I have referred to my husband as my rock on many occasions. It has fairly common positive connotations.

Wait a minute. [Overlooked Maiden] is a common ethos (and it makes sense for it to be common, if women keep getting overlooked in this society). Such an ethos has clear utility in spycraft/intrigue, which makes it much more likely society has counters to it, and makes it less useful for Lilly in particular.

(Unless, that is, this society is so dumb as to say "you have a notice-me-not field? no one can remember your face after the fact? hmm i think you would do very well in the kitchen")

Alectai said:

It says that "You don't need to fear becoming something you're not, because you won't lose sight of where you came from. Others find themselves in better footing in your presence, Decay pauses, decoherence suspends, unravelling is held."

It's literally saying "You won't forget what made you what you are, and you won't let the flow of change turn you into something you're not. You are the example that reminds people why they're doing this in the first place"

More importantly, it's an Essence Ethos, and as such it will benefit from Lilly's present understanding of Essence as a generally positive and uplifting thing. I don't see this suddenly secretly turning out to be evil cult leader mode or stifling our growth in light of that.

It's like telling the rich man not to forget there was a time where he was poor, like telling the hero that he was a peasant once too. It's reminding Superman that about the country farm he was raised on. It's about not letting your current circumstances distract you from the core of your being. And that seems really important given how the universe seems hell bent on kicking Lilly's support structures out from under her.

It takes some really tortured reading to flip that into a flaw

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

That's one narrative, yes.

In the other narrative, what else is Lilly not? She's not patient, not all that thoughtful or well-considered, nor very well-learned, and now, "You need not ever fear becoming what you are not".

It's like the rich man ignoring that he has $10 billion and spending hours counting $2, or like Superman never getting used to flying because he's stuck thinking like a country farmer. Coward once, always a coward? At the end of the day, we don't know what, exactly, the ethos counts as one's "very nature" or "the truth of your origins"; it could very well be those sorts of behaviors.

The cult leader thing is pretty darn safe to rule out. The misaligned conservatism, not so much.

GlassMask said:

Ehhh... I refer to my husband as my rock. It has fairly common positive connotations.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Not the rock thing specifically, but rather what exactly is other peoples' rock: Lilly's resolution, i.e. other people are adopting Lilly's goals, in order to have a stable foundation.

(The description seems to suggest otherwise, but the title alone is scary.)

noncannon said:

Wait a minute. [Overlooked Maiden] is a common ethos (and it makes sense for it to be common, if women keep getting overlooked in this society). Such an ethos has clear utility in spycraft/intrigue, which makes it much more likely society has counters to it, and makes it less useful for Lilly in particular.

(Unless, that is, this society is so dumb as to say "you have a notice-me-not field? no one can remember your face after the fact? hmm i think you would do very well in the kitchen")

That's one narrative, yes.

In the other narrative, what else is Lilly not? She's not patient, not all that thoughtful or well-considered, nor very well-learned, and now, "You need not ever fear becoming what you are not".

It's like the rich man ignoring that he has $10 billion and spending hours counting $2, or like Superman never getting used to flying because he's stuck thinking like a country farmer. At the end of the day, we don't know what, exactly, the ethos counts as one's "very nature" or "the truth of your origins"; it could very well be those sorts of behaviors.

The cult leader thing is pretty darn safe to rule out. The mismatched conservatism, not so much.


Not the rock thing specifically, but rather what exactly is other peoples' rock: Lilly's resolution, i.e. other people are adopting Lilly's goals, in order to have a stable foundation.

(The description seems to suggest otherwise, but the title alone is scary.)

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

That's again, a stretch--and also directly conflicts with [Dream Within the Forest] Which has a clause that says "Grow". My presumption is that an Ethos will take the path of least resistance whenever possible--which means that I find it unlikely that Bedrock will effectively lock Lilly into a mental and emotional rut that she can't ever escape from.

Again, if your argument requires you to cherrypick specific words to function, when your interpretation seems to fly in the face of what the entire thing is saying, chances are your argument isn't very good. "I'm terrified of a specific word used in the title" "Does that mean our Core Ethos is something to be scared about? Because clearly a dream isn't real, you know so it shouldn't be giving us any real power at all!"

Taking it as a whole, it seems pretty damn uplifting rather than something that seems to be out to stifle one's own growth and evolution?

...Something I couldn't help but notice looking through the Character Sheet, was the 'unnamed' tab under Whispers of Life.
Lily mentioned being able to heal faster, hear conversations from further away, and pick new Hearthstaff shapes.
...
If I had to guess...? It's about beneficial melding of Essences between Lily and other things she connects to. And is likely low enough in power the Watch aren't noticing it's power, or it's Lily specific. Unsure which.
I suspect the catch is a couple of things:
1. It requires a proper [Dream] connection, which is why the benefits aren't just activating for anyone Lily is connecting to.
2. The effects are built and based upon who Lily is connecting to and what they can do...It occurs to me the 'hearing' increase is probably an unexpected 'gift' from Yolan's corruptive transformation, which might be why it first showed up after Lily was taken in by the Watch. The trick is to see if her 'hearing' fades if Yolan is restored to normal or if it is retained. The other two are based upon the inital 'Tree' connection, hence the healing, and since the Hearthstaff got absorbed/became a part of Lily's Dream, it too benefits from this connection.
3.I suspect the connection would work BOTH ways-I could see Yolan getting some minor buffs via his connection to the Heartstaff, and the rest of Lily's family potentially getting in on the action as well as adding their own abilities. This also means we can expect our siblings to start getting silly with their minor superpowers.

noncannon said:

Wait a minute. [Overlooked Maiden] is a common ethos (and it makes sense for it to be common, if women keep getting overlooked in this society). Such an ethos has clear utility in spycraft/intrigue, which makes it much more likely society has counters to it, and makes it less useful for Lilly in particular.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I'd assume everything has counters to it. Some stuff is harder to counter, but like that doesn't mean it's not useful. Having the ability to slip out of notice, and be less noticed when you want to be is incredibly valuable even if it can get countered. And we are going to be even more powerful than average simply because abilities every level is op. Also the synergy with cleaver of fate is quite probably very large.

I would not dismiss it just because counters exist. Right now it's not the best option, but in the future I hope we can pick it up.

Good News. I've made good progress on the interlude and I think I might actually be able to drop it hot off the press tonight.

Dream Within The Forest is about growth. This one is about preservation. Very different.

(I don't actually see the clause that says "grow", but I guess that's not germane to the discussion.)

Alectai said:

"I'm terrified of a specific word used in the title" "Does that mean our Core Ethos is something to be scared about? Because clearly a dream isn't real, you know so it shouldn't be giving us any real power at all!"

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Actually, kind of. If judging from title alone, "Dream Within The Forest" kind of suggests one becomes a wayward hermit; that's not the kind of ethos one gets unless they don't have any other choice (or more of a description).

Alectai said:

Taking it as a whole, it seems pretty damn uplifting rather than something that seems to be out to stifle one's own growth and evolution?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I think "does it uplift/downlift" "is it good/bad" is too binary a spectrum to make decisions on. Ethos can be good in some ways, bad in others. This ethos seems good at preserving one's identity (whatever that means)--and, to be sure, this is needed in the face of current hostile elements--but it can also be bad by being too good at preserving one's identity, or by preserving things we don't want (the "misaligned conservatism" I was referring to).

GlassMask said:

I'd assume everything has counters to it. Some stuff is harder to counter, but like that doesn't mean it's not useful. Having the ability to slip out of notice, and be less noticed when you want to be is incredibly valuable even if it can get countered. And we are going to be even more powerful than average simply because abilities every level is op. Also the synergy with cleaver of fate is quite probably very large.

I would not dismiss it just because counters exist. Right now it's not the best option, but in the future I hope we can pick it up.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I think all these points are fair. I don't think we'll have another chance (I think this is the last time we'll be overlooked, unless we run away), which is why I kind of want to get the power, but... werewolf/Valarie/potential brainwashing/personal crisis.

(Also I don't want to risk accidentally torpedoing Captain Martin's good opinion of us, by his suddenly thinking we're a nameless maid. Or more likely, his suddenly thinking that and then deducing we got a new, common ethos.)

The point is that Ethae adapt to the Integrator and their desires--they don't compel you along a route you weren't going to go. And Bedrock isn't operating in a vacuum, it's operating in a gestalt including [Dream Within the Forest], which is literally templated off of Lilly's daydreams of growing into something that doesn't need to be stuck in a house with someone helping them, and [Brave Blood] which gives forward motion and control of your trajectory, augmented further still by [Cleaver of Fortune] giving us the wisdom and leverage to do things that are normally out of our reach. As a Common Ethos, Bedrock is flexible and can adapt to most circumstances, and is more likely to synergize with the rest of our kit as a result. Maybe if taken in isolation these would be genuine risks--but it's not, it has to adapt to Lilly's current gestalt.

Hmm, on a related note, us nabbing both of the Secret Challenges with regards to the Foundational Ethos should really help us out with Blessed Flesh. +5 Grasp right out the gate is no joke, given how most Ethae we've seen have Grasp on a 20 point scale.

Of course, Soul Anchor would be good too to become Meguca. Hmm, it does seem like Manoth's little offering is winning though, which should be interesting. Even if gear isn't in the cards, it might be a good angle to get some kind of bio-armor transformation or something.

[X] [DreamLVL] She carried it with her always, no matter how far apart they drifted.
[X] [Milestone] Extend a Power's potential.
- [X] [Milestone-Power] {Collective Communion} (x150%) (DC 40x1.5=60)
[X] [CleaverLVL] It looked harmless, but fate told her the truth.
[X] [N:FES] [My Resolution, Thy Bedrock]
[X] [S:FES] [Reinterpretation Seed | 566-B, Manoth Placement Approval Only ]
[X] [SoT] Exalted Flesh

noncannon said:

Yeah, I think all these points are fair. I don't think we'll have another chance (I think this is the last time we'll be overlooked, unless we run away), which is why I kind of want to get the power, but... werewolf/Valarie/potential brainwashing/personal crisis.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I would not underestimate misogyny. Also even if we never see this one again, I kinda doubt we never see a stealth ability again. We will be hiding stuff a lot of the time, so plenty of opportunities to lower DC on stealth based ethea

GlassMask said:

I'd assume everything has counters to it. Some stuff is harder to counter, but like that doesn't mean it's not useful. Having the ability to slip out of notice, and be less noticed when you want to be is incredibly valuable even if it can get countered. And we are going to be even more powerful than average simply because abilities every level is op. Also the synergy with cleaver of fate is quite probably very large.

I would not dismiss it just because counters exist. Right now it's not the best option, but in the future I hope we can pick it up.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

It's like Cleaver of Fortune in that regard.
As a mono class it's pretty useless. But as a part of some op entity as us, obscuring us and making us be overlooked at times and giving us the aura of normalcy. That would make it incredible.
We will have 6 ethoses now, right? In all that noise overlooking the overlooked maiden seems like a likely outcome.

Alectai said:

The point is that Ethae adapt to the Integrator and their desires--they don't compel you along a route you weren't going to go.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I don't remember anything like that.

Even if true, this doesn't contradict the "misaligned conservatism" scenario. Right now, Lilly is feeling very detached, groundless, wants her dad back, wants her happier self back. More specifically, she wants her life of a few days ago, and if Ethos "adapt to the Integrator and their desires"...

Alectai said:

And Bedrock isn't operating in a vacuum, it's operating in a gestalt including [Dream Within the Forest], which is literally templated off of Lilly's daydreams of growing into something that doesn't need to be stuck in a house with someone helping them, and [Brave Blood] which gives forward motion and control of your trajectory, augmented further still by [Cleaver of Fortune] giving us the wisdom and leverage to do things that are normally out of our reach. As a Common Ethos, Bedrock is flexible and can adapt to most circumstances, and is more likely to synergize with the rest of our kit as a result. Maybe if taken in isolation these would be genuine risks--but it's not, it has to adapt to Lilly's current gestalt.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

How do you know which ethos "wins" over another in a gestalt, and why need it go in order of seniority?

(It's also a significant stretch to say that Cleaver gives us "wisdom" in any personality-affecting way.)

Even if, hypothetically, Bedrock did "lose" against growth; well, growth in the duidic fashion (and also, probably, in Lilly's daydreams) doesn't imply mental growth, wisdom, temperance, or even intelligence. Meanwhile, preserving forward motion might mean preserving Lilly's stubbornness and tunnel visioning, to the detriment of the above.

I mean, those are significant aspects of her personality; who is to say if they are or aren't bedrock? (Ultimately, the ethos is who.)

GlassMask said:

Also even if we never see this one again, I kinda doubt we never see a stealth ability again. We will be hiding stuff a lot of the time, so plenty of opportunities to lower DC on stealth based ethea

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

We'll have stealth, but I doubt it'll be as good as a notice-me-not field, because we'd be worth noticing. Still, I'd be happy to be proven wrong (but Lilly isn't known for her subtlety so I kind of doubt it).