It's a Girl's World -- And Lilly wants Adventure

Hi, yes.

My name is Pieman and I have no idea what's going on with these ethos choices and level ups anymore. Good fucking update though, Boss. Absolutely fantastic.

Okay, taking this from the top now that the Secret Challenge has been answered.

[Rapid Iterator | 2873-2A, Efficient Tension Sustainment] (Foundational): (Essence)
With what was revealed, I feel my initial kneejerk theory is correct--we are Fighting a Rapid Iterator right now in the process of establishing its Dungeon, but the fact it's so hostile and effectively sending out kill squads of coordinated beasts to murder humans en masse while stopping counteraction means it needs to be snuffed out now at all costs, rather than wait for it to get established and then reap the benefits of the Dungeon. Hence the comment about "If it was Broken, we'd all be dead now". If it was Broken, it would have waited until it hit critical mass and then thrown the deep dungeon level mobs (Like the ones we just fought) out as its opening wave. If those stags were in the lead with the ranging force? No ifs, ands, or buts, everyone in this valley is dead. It still threw out more force than could be readily responded to though, hence the talk of it being "Rampant" but it still can't create an actually impossible scenario.

[Towering Edifice to Heaven | 7958-A Series, Regional Stressor Event] (Foundational): (Deific)
Tower mode, creates a super tower in the middle of a critical stress point and then uses the 'Roaming Mobs' to break up an unstable situation that was going to lead to some group being wiped out outside of their 'Time', while also providing a great incentive for people to project power inside instead of expend it wiping said group out. Notably, it's forbidden to 'Tame' anything on the inside, and based on the last part... Infinite Dungeon? "Scales up accordingly to resist long term suppression" and all. So it's a Dungeon that lasts as long as it needs to?

[Reinterpretation Seed | 566-B, Manoth Placement Approval Only ] (Foundational): (Oath) {Inverted}
Since this is another project by Manoth, it strongly suggests this is going to be a... Uh, Fun thing. Notably, it points out that "It would be best to deploy this someplace with low biodiversity, and only in a place that any more subtle approach is unsuited for stimulating progression... Since Manoth's whole thing seems to be 'Shake the system just to see how far it can be pushed', I feel that Reinterpretation Seed is... Endgame Side Quest Dungeon stuff--hence the point about 'Artefacts are largely banned except when permission is granted because it's too disruptive' and the explicit statement that 'No, you can't create Exponential Threats so don't even try'. Very vulgar, very obvious, but ferociously disruptive at the cost of "All shinies you can take out of this place need to be approved by people who aren't Manoth" and I rather think they're busy right now.

[Malleable Elemental Pioneer | 1000-A, 'No Focal Concept Selected'] (Foundational): (Mana)
Puzzle Dungeon, can be adjusted to be a suitable training ground for Mana using Ethae by using them as a template. The whole "You don't find a fire dungeon in the middle of a lake" principle and all that. Very strong defense, seems focused on traps and wards rather than roaming monsters? Either way, it seems like a very technical sort of dungeon rather than one you can brute force through.

[Malice Labyrinth | 0017, Discontinued Indefinitely] (Foundational): (Pithe)
Based on the Source and the writeup here... It seems to suggest that Malice Labyrinth is a dungeon full of brutes combined with effects to defeat Pithe users. "The monster is actually a step behind its apparent position" and all that. It seems the meme being drawn on here is "A dungeon that is so hard that it borders on unfair", most people bounce off of it unless they're the right kind of lunatic who knows how to break the system (In which case they trivialize it). So it seems to imply that it's a dungeon with a gimmick--and if you can defeat the gimmick it's completely trivial--but if you can't, it breaks you over its knee. For the purposes of the Gods, it seems like it's kind of shit (Since they want things to be challenging, not unbalanced), but it could be valuable in some sense to Lilly as a bolthole.

[Infernal Realm Anchor | 0414-C, Demi-plane Overlay] (Foundational): (Mana)
Demon World dungeon, different laws and demons can actually exist here. Considered very dangerous because apparently it can aid people who enter these the ability to break the fourth wall, which is problematic from the perspective of the Gods. Also, even Lesser Infernals apparently exceed the limits of power that the 'Treaty' permits to exist, and someone going too far into this risks requiring a scorched earth solution to get things back on track.

[Blanket Weaponiser | 7441-C, Generic Inspiring Obstacle] (Foundational): (No Set Source)
No special perks brought in, it's a dungeon that fits in with its surroundings--but because of that it can grow into a lot of things! I'd almost say this is the best for us due to the whole "Lilly is an unfair monster in the long run, and a tabula rasa dungeon combined with her Omnivector status is liable to synergize in grotesque fashion because it might give us a multisource Dungeon", but we can't always be present--and outside of abusing her Omnivector status, this mostly just scales to its surroundings--and our hometown is pretty podunk (Though it'd stop being podunk pretty fast with something like this nearby!)

[Championed Uplift | 0000-A, 2nd​ Integration Stage Initializer] (Foundational): (Legend)
Class Change Dungeon
Just three words to completely break the fucking game. You know those super dungeons that pop in and you clear it and your Class evolves? This is it. It's a big test to see "Hey, can you have most of the safety limitations on your Ethos removed?" Provided you get through the Dungeon (And it has been established that there is no way to game this system, if we want to use it on our own Ethae, we need to clear the dungeon fairly), your Ethos evolves. Notably, in the warnings--it clearly states that This needs to be recalled immediately, which suggests that it's drawing resources needed to contest the Maw. Notably, this is a Legend source, I don't think we've seen one of those since we got the Evievision!

[Library of Achievement | 5034-CD, Ancient Recaller] (Foundational): (Concordance/Legend)
This is a secret dungeon that appears for promising people who are stuck on a dead-end Ethos, who get guided here by an "Agent" that's already active in the world and are introduced to the Dungeon. They get provided a new power in their Ethos tangentally related to the stuff they already have to hide the fact it's the system admins playing silly buggers to get someone who'd otherwise be useful out of a dead end and back providing valuable content. Potent in the sense that it allows you to expand an Ethos in unconventional ways, but the combination of instability and the fact there's an agent who exists for the sole purpose of managing [Library of Achievement] makes it too hot for us to handle. Pass.

IT'S DONE, MY COMPREHENSIVE ANALYSIS OF THE FOUNDAITONAL ETHOS CHOICES.

Now for my actual vote!

Bravo @Alectai ! @Thebigpieman No worries there, I think we're all puzzling it out. The level-ups are still kind of elusive as they've been previously, too bad Ladder's been busy.

The Milestone Expansion mechanics evade me, but my best guess is the Ethos selections are offering power/higher chances of survival, with varying degrees of mental changes or social consequences for Lilly as the specificity/magnitude of the Ethos goes up.

The Foundational Ethos and Evie's choices are about the Dungeon and Core options available (more power, with major consequences/risk? Or more discretion, and something more straightforward to handle?)

I won't speculate about the broader plan by the designers of this system, as that's a bigger-picture question.

Concerns: With the wider range of Ethos choices, do we go broad, or specialize? [My Resolution, Thy Bedrock] and [Sorceror] have potential synergy with the Dungeon options. On the other hand, [Quickwrit Stennovoker] is a runic option, noted for defensive options first, and Tear the Veil is a power that excels at interrogation, in a setting in which most information has been kept from Lilly.


How discrete can we keep the Dungeon? (Can this option be realistically installed as a "Hidden Boss Area" or will it probably shoot a frickin' beam into the sky?)

Dungeons are implied to be a long-term investment. What option suits Lilly best in the short and long-term? For these, see @Alectai 's Foundational Ethos post.



What Milestone Expansion suits Lilly best right now?

What are the Level up options actually promising? (At a rough guess, Dream is offering small-scale awareness of life, perhaps synergizing with Wood Memory? I'll get into the rest later)

What options do we pick to keep Valerie and Abby from using their Kill Words on Lilly and everyone around her?

How do we preserve Lilly's mental health (this affects her critical thinking capacity/what choices she makes besides the ones we vote on).

What options are best to help Yolun, and everyone else?

Overall, how do we keep Lilly's abilities discrete enough that she doesn't get overwhelmed by the kingdom's finest? (Noosemen, Lore Warden, Watch, Nobles, whoever else)

I kinda wanna do [My Resolution, Thy Bedrock] first because this is probably the best time to have a good solid foundation considering all the big changes coming up soon like getting a new body and becoming a dungeon core. It has also been said that [Quickwrit Stennovoker] won't get locked out so it might be better to take after choosing a dungeon. Besides [My Resolution, Thy Bedrock] might be able to help out on our increasingly inhuman features popping up soon

So with Alectai presumably busy looking at the Foundational Ethea, let me take a guess as to what the expansions on offer will do:

[Dream within the Forest]: Level up 4 -> 5
[ ] [DreamLVL] She noticed even the smallest eddies in the current.
sounds like an improvement in our ability to spot things in our essence view? I'm not 100% sure what the current is, since so far essence connections have been described like webs or strands and not a river or water, but that seems most likely to me
[ ] [DreamLVL] The root grew between the rock for years, until finally it split.
The image of slow growth to deal damage/accomplish an objective is obvious, I'm not sure how this would translate into a power though. Maybe something helping us channel essence into an effect for a slower but less draining effect?
[ ] [DreamLVL] It could not lash out at her, she was friend to all.
Probably befriending even hostile wildlife, probably works as an extension of {Wild Affinity}
[ ] [DreamLVL] She carried it with her always, no matter how far apart they drifted.
This probably unlocks being connected to the forest independent of geographical location, we haven't really gone far from it so far after all. Seems like the most important one if we plan on ranging further in the future while still channeling our essence to people

[Dream within the Forest]: Milestone
Divergence at L - - (x80% to Misalignment Chance) (DC 50x0.8=40)
[ ] [Milestone] Do more with Essence. (x150%) (DC 40x1.5=60)
- [ ] [Milestone-Essence] Awareness - Outer (DC 60)
Essence Awareness - Outer is probably Essence perception in the outer world, is currently at -SH atm which makes sense to me as we have an Essence perception ability that's very long-range and detailed
- [ ] [Milestone-Essence] Awareness - Inner (DC 60)
Essence perception in ourselves I'd guess, we're worse at this at --L, which tracks as {{Sympathetic Linkage}} doesn't seem to work our our own body
- [ ] [Milestone-Essence] Shaping - Intuit (DC 60)
- [ ] [Milestone-Essence] Shaping - Directed (DC 60)
I'm unsure what the distinction between Intuit/Directed is beyond the obvious. I'd propose that it's kind of like the difference between Mage and Sorceror in DnD, where one relies on careful study and reproduction (Mage, Directed) and the other on improvisation and self-expression (Sorceror, Intuit). This is backed up by our rating for Intuit being far higher (M---) than for Directed (---L) as [Dream Within A Forest] doesn't rely on incantations or anything
- [ ] [Milestone-Essence] Source - Innate (x150%) (DC 60x1.5=90)
How much Essence we generate ourselves, we don't have a rating here at all, presumably that explains the higher DC and means our Tree-half doesn't count as Innate
- [ ] [Milestone-Essence] Source - Channel (DC 60)
Inversely this is probably our ability to channel essence from the Prime Tree, If we're going to increase one of our ratings here I feel like this would be a good choice, considering we've run up against our ability to channel already.
[ ] [Milestone] Extend a Power's potential.
- [ ] [Milestone-Power] {Golden Rapture} (x150%) (DC 40x1.5=60)
- [ ] [Milestone-Power] {Whispers of Life} (DC 40)
- [ ] [Milestone-Power] {In thy Likeness} (DC 40)
- [ ] [Milestone-Power] {Collective Communion} (x150%) (DC 40x1.5=60)
Not sure how any of these might be affected, it might raise level cap for the one we pick? If so {Golden Rapture} and {Collective Communion} should be good choices since both of those see very regular use and are running up against level caps already

[Cleaver of Fortune]: Level up 2 -> 3
[ ] [CleaverLVL] It looked harmless, but fate told her the truth.
Sounds like something to counter illusions and other trickery
[ ] [CleaverLVL] A moment to consider. Then she understood her odds.
Some ability to understand how likely a specific attempt to do a thing is to succeed
[ ] [CleaverLVL] She stabbed him in the heart, to kill his lover.
Something to make more circuitous plans that rely on more complex causal chains than A thus B
[ ] [CleaverLVL] No one knew her future, not even herself.
Probably makes us impossible to scry through similar Ethea, probably my favorite here

@abacadaasap321 Bedrock is a strong choice, definitely. It could also help Yolun, unlike most of the other choices. (Speaking of Yolun, what kind of strategic intelligence does Rapid Iterator have, to target him to get Lilly?) A consideration there is the nature of Lilly's namesake.

Does taking that Ethos tie her to that unknown destiny more? Also, Evie stated "Whatever choice I made, there would be no going back. Lilly would be what she would be." Unless Exalted Flesh is taken, physical changes from the Core will probably become baseline Lilly going forward.

I don't mean to shoot you down, I'm favoring Bedrock too right now. I just want to draw attention to the other information we have.

[X] Plan: Rise Young Girl To the Heavens like a Legend! (Hopefully with less tang)
-[X] [DreamLVL] She carried it with her always, no matter how far apart they drifted.
-[X] [Milestone] Extend a Power's potential.
--[X] [Milestone-Power] {Golden Rapture} (x150%) (DC 40x1.5=60)
-[X] [CleaverLVL] It looked harmless, but fate told her the truth.
-[X] [N:FES] [My Resolution, Thy Bedrock]
-[X] [S:FES] [Towering Edifice to Heaven | 7958-A Series, Regional Stressor Event]
-[X] [SoT] Exalted Flesh

There!

On the choice of Foundational Integration Vector... Fact is that our overall strategy kind of requires Lilly to go with Exalted Flesh and become a true meguca--and that means we're not going to have fine control of our Dungeon for a while, so we should strive to pick one that won't wipe out our beloved peasant village--and [Towering Edifice to Heaven] explicitly states that its 'Roamers' are going to be relatively non-violent as far as roaming monsters go, and the auto-scaling and anti-taming measures should prevent things from getting out of hand until we gain some proficiency in managing it because it means that it's unlikely to be speedrun before we can wrap our head around it. It also shares a Source with Evie, which should make it not unreasonably difficult to learn and manage, as Evie is our 'Intelligent' Ethos (Even if she lost most of her personality data, it looks like she's at least got her base function intact). Which might help us wrap our head around it as long as we don't go crazy with the pesudo-matter generation.

As for the other choices... We're not going to be around forever, so making sure our links are distance-agnostic seems key. As for which Milestone we get? The difficulty is too hard for us to expand our Essence control, but since we're picking up another Essence Ethos, I imagine our stats will adjust to favor the best of our Ethae, which means we don't need to bash our head against the brick wall that is the DCs of raising our Essence powers and can focus on raising our caps--in which case, I chose {Golden Rapture} as it's the foundation of most of our Essence stuff--and more importantly, it's the closest to capping out (And actually does have Sympathetic Linkage capped out!). The DC 60 is a bit of a hurdle, but should still be achievable as long as the dice aren't too harshly against us.

Cleaver? I'm definitely grabbing the whole "Tells you where the rabbit holes are so you don't shove your foot in them" power there, it seems really important given the landmine field we're about to walk into.

As for the new Ethos? I was torn for a bit between Quickwrit and Striker before I settled on [My Resolution, Thy Bedrock] . Because Lilly's going through some shit lately and having that extra mental support to help keep her grounded as her build really starts sailing into the sky seems important. Beyond that, it's another Essence based Ethos, so we can probably finangle the effects on our overall specs as the results of our Milestone, and the abilities are ones that can fit into the ones she's shown by now if you squint.

We've built up a lot of heat, but we've also gained a great deal of Merit with Lilly's clutch actions here, combined with Exalted Flesh limiting the ability of anyone to detect Lilly as the Dungeon Master, and we should be in good stead!

At least in theory.

Alectai said:

Notably, in the warnings--it clearly states that This needs to be recalled immediately, which suggests that it's drawing resources needed to contest the Maw.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I don't think that's quite it. I see that warning in correlation to the fact that it's meant to be attuned to only a single Integrator/person, so after that person has gone through it, it should be recalled, since you don't want it to hang around and others to challenge the dungeon. There's after all fourteen millenia to go before 2nd stage Initialisations can be widely spread without this dungeon being necessary as a testing ground. Notably this recall might be trouble for Lilly if the dungeon gets attuned to someone, that someone beats it and then it's supposed to be recalled. Might be that the powers that be would overlook it due to the whole "being consumed by the Maw" thing they've got going on, but if it is recalled that might be trouble for Lilly.

Anyway, I'm tapped out, bushed, kaput. I have assembled my plan and spat out over a thousand words of analysis tonight.

I will speak to you all another time!

... Wait, one final thought.

@Slyvena

{Inverted} Ethae.

Ordinary Ethae are trying to create Heroes, or heroic sorts in general, right?

Does that mean an {Inverted} Ethos are the fundaments to be the Dark Lord?

The twisted power that usually is the start of someone turning into a scourge upon society, one that sparks the rise of Heroes to oppose them?

If that's the case, then I think I just figured out what Reinterpretation Seed is.

It's the Dark Lord's Palace.

A place in a barren wastes, untouched by anything but the fiercest of beasts, no succor or treasures to be found save the ones the Dark Lord concealed for themselves, and the most terrifying beasts to guard it. It fits the "Ideal Application Parameters", and the limitations--and the explicit ban on "No, you can't create exponential threats" further follows that narrative. "If we want to do an Evil King vs Heroes plot, make sure the final battle happens in a place that won't cause massive disruption to the overall world narrative from the collateral that comes with it"

My mind kind of melted during this update trying to process everything and I would probably be better served taking a better shot at this after some rest and re-reading (I'll do the re-reading of a few key sections with this new info in mind for sure; rest... we'll see) but I'm not sure we're not getting ahead of ourselves when running with the "Foundational Ethos are dungeons hence we're making Lilly a dungeon master in this vote" idea.

If I'm interpreting right (always a stretch but bear with me for a moment) while the Foundational Ethea are dungeons they were never, ever meant to be placed in people. That's why they all have the "Geological Integration Only" tag - they're meant to be placed in suitable locations. Now, Evie is modifying Lilly so that's she suitably... location-y... enough that it'll all work (probably) but I don't think the outcome is "Lilly establishes a territory she has control over" necessarily.

To give an example, taking Rapid Iterator, the description seems to suggest what it does is spawn constructs that mimic the local wildlife but at a higher level (with the purpose of providing a close-to-equal challenge to the local population to facilitate their growth; basically providing a good opportunity for level grinding but let's discard the purpose for now and focus on the effect.) Now applying that to a person even if they've been modified to be more location-y like Lilly, I'm not so sure we're getting a dungeon so much as we're giving Lilly the properties of that dungeon - in this case the ability to quickly spawn exaggerated local wildlife. Basically, Lilly could, at sufficient level and control, unleash a swarm of monsters like what she's experienced this night. But since it's being integrated to her and not a location due to Evie's tinkering I think this is less "Lilly gets a dungeon she rules over" in the sense that she gains a territory/domain she has power over so much as, if she put her mind to it, she can locally recreate the basic rules of a dungeon around her... which is a far more versatile and conceptual idea (and very dangerous to herself and others if she lacks/loses control) and would vary depending on where she was (including "taking" the ability to places the description says it's not suitable for for good or for ill, etc.)

But maybe that's what everyone already meant and knew and I was the only one who took the dungeon commentary so literal.

Alcor said:

My mind kind of melted during this update trying to process everything and I would probably be better served taking a better shot at this after some rest and re-reading (I'll do the re-reading of a few key sections with this new info in mind for sure; rest... we'll see) but I'm not sure we're not getting ahead of ourselves when running with the "Foundational Ethos are dungeons hence we're making Lilly a dungeon master in this vote" idea.

If I'm interpreting right (always a stretch but bear with me for a moment) while the Foundational Ethea are dungeons they were never, ever meant to be placed in people. That's why they all have the "Geological Integration Only" tag - they're meant to be placed in suitable locations. Now, Evie is modifying Lilly so that's she suitably... location-y... enough that it'll all work (probably) but I don't think the outcome is "Lilly establishes a territory she has control over" necessarily.

To give an example, taking Rapid Iterator, the description seems to suggest what it does is spawn constructs that mimic the local wildlife but at a higher level (with the purpose of providing a close-to-equal challenge to the local population to facilitate their growth; basically providing a good opportunity for level grinding but let's discard the purpose for now and focus on the effect.) Now applying that to a person even if they've been modified to be more location-y like Lilly, I'm not so sure we're getting a dungeon so much as we're giving Lilly the properties of that dungeon - in this case the ability to quickly spawn exaggerated local wildlife. Basically, Lilly could, at sufficient level and control, unleash a swarm of monsters like what she's experienced this night. But since it's being integrated to her and not a location due to Evie's tinkering I think this is less "Lilly gets a dungeon she rules over" in the sense that she gains a territory/domain she has power over so much as, if she put her mind to it, she can locally recreate the basic rules of a dungeon around her... which is a far more versatile and conceptual idea (and very dangerous to herself and others if she lacks/loses control) and would vary depending on where she was (including "taking" the ability to places the description says it's not suitable for for good or for ill, etc.)

But maybe that's what everyone already meant and knew and I was the only one who took the dungeon commentary so literal.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

That....

That seems... Plausible.

I'll have to literally sleep on it, but I'm fading fast now and I really have to go.

Christ, the "Geological" thing threw me off a couple times, but I didn't think it meant literally for some reason, but it its, Evie was straight up going "Yeah I need to change her to make this count"

We do know though that the Source attached to the Foundational Ethos gets significantly altered going forward however, so... Yeah. I'll see what people throw out while I'm sleeping later.

Alcor said:

[...]

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I think that's a solid assumption, though note that under the Scope of Transformation vote, Evie mentions that The Exalted Flesh will have their Domain reset upon taking large damage, so I assume that some form of influence over a geographical area will be involved in whatever Evie's doing to us.

@Alectai See, if you're right, you're making me want to pick Reinterpretation Seed now. Adventurer Lilly is already exciting, but Final Boss Lilly is almost irresistible. Give me some of that "All will stop trying to enslave me or kill my family, and tell me what's actually going on in this stupid society love me and despair" style and I'm in (I'm not actually in yet, this is a joke.)

Also a great point @Alcor . I somewhat doubt it due to how difficult some of them would be to implement (Lilly co-hosts her body with a special agent picking people for new destinies?...Wouldn't be the first time actually)

Even if it were a physical place, there are still questions about Towering Edifice to Heaven, though.

What is the likelihood that it ties Evie physically to wherever it sets up? Evie has saved Lilly on something like 4 separate occasions now. Losing her now as an on-call hidden weapon is potentially suicidal, especially against Valerie and Abby.

Just the name promises attention. If the kingdom devotes enough force to "clearing it" and then scours it from the earth (the fact that the Watch is taking down a similar structure right now is telling), what happens to Evie? What happens to Lilly?

I agree with the overall strategy, and I like it more than most of the other options. Blanket Weaponizer is close, as is Reinterpretation Seed. Though Reinterpretation Seed is probably way too noticeable, going on the description.



One good thing about this chapter though. With Yolun being indisposed as he is, the Captain would have to be a horrible scumbag to not give Lilly's family the wealth and favor he promised. As long as he lives, of course.

Edit: I'm turning in too. Goodnight!

We've caught a lot of attention recently, so overall I think it'd be prudent to go for the options letting us keep a low profile. With that in mind my thoughts:

[ ] [DreamLVL] She carried it with her always, no matter how far apart they drifted.
This is a no-brainer to me, Lilly wants to travel eventually so we need this sooner or later.

[ ] [Milestone] Extend a Power's potential.
- [ ] [Milestone-Power] {Collective Communion} (x150%) (DC 40x1.5=60)
Gonna go with {Collective Communion} here, imo {Heartstaff}, {The World Beneath} and {Attuned Locus} are all better than {Wild Affinity}, {Thread compression} and {Sympathetic Linkage}, they also have more levels between them than the {Golden Rapture} subskills. So if this raises level caps it'll be more useful here imo.

[ ] [CleaverLVL] No one knew her future, not even herself.
We've drawn a ton of heat already, let's pick up something that makes it harder for people to actually find us or predict our movements

[ ] [N:FES] [My Resolution, Thy Bedrock]
As I've said before, this one seems mandatory to me to avoid "Loss of Humanity" type gameovers, plus it will probably help us deal with whatever has afflicted Myah and undo what was done to Yolun

[ ] [S:FES] [Blanket Weaponiser | 7441-C, Generic Inspiring Obstacle]
Ultimately we don't know much about the wider world, depending on how exactly a foundational ethos manifests itself in a person whatever we chose here might pose a danger to the surroundings. The description for Blanket Weaponiser (that it's supposed to be placed in border regions) seems to somewhat match what little we know (Harmuph is a backwater and there's another realm nearby) and it doesn't have a set power source, so it will probably be easier to integrate with our abundant source of essence from [Dream Within A Forest]. To me picking this up makes the most sense and if the assumption that we'll pick up dungeon abilities turns out correct then the ability to weaponise things and innovate seems good to me.

[ ] [SoT] Exalted Flesh
I think it makes sense to try to keep this particular ability of ours as secret as possible, both from other mortal threats as well as the wider world beyond our plane of existence, so this seems like the best choice to me.

so I'd propose the following plan:
[X] Plan: Keeping Our Head Down As We Grow
-[X] [DreamLVL] She carried it with her always, no matter how far apart they drifted.
-[X] [Milestone] Extend a Power's potential.
-- [X] [Milestone-Power] {Collective Communion} (x150%) (DC 40x1.5=60)
-[X] [CleaverLVL] No one knew her future, not even herself.
-[X] [N:FES] [My Resolution, Thy Bedrock]
-[X] [S:FES] [Blanket Weaponiser | 7441-C, Generic Inspiring Obstacle]
-[X] [SoT] Exalted Flesh

I hope this is formatted correctly to register as a plan, first time I'm doing this.

sheep-dodger said:

I think that's a solid assumption, though note that under the Scope of Transformation vote, Evie mentions that The Exalted Flesh will have their Domain reset upon taking large damage, so I assume that some form of influence over a geographical area will be involved in whatever Evie's doing to us.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Hmm, true. It may be more of a compromise position.

The more I think about, I think I'm at least on to something about obtaining a Foundation Ethos giving Lilly the ability to locally impose a dungeon's ruleset around her, but the key is around her. Basically, Lilly will be able to warp the area around her in a manner that twists it to become like the ideal specified by the Foundational Ethos. Though I do think there's enough ambiguity on some points to keep me a bit uncertain that I may have gone a bit off the track and perhaps it really is as straightforward as an actual dungeon.

In this context, Evie's commentary in the various Scope of Transformation votes would roughly translate like:

Slyvena said:

It would mean she'd easily lose any progress she'd made asserting her Domain whenever she was significantly harmed and would not possess an innate talent for utilizing her new capabilities.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Essentially, since we'd be keeping Lilly the most human in this instance and less Puella Magi, if Lilly took considerable physical damage it would mean the imposed dungeon effects would weaken, flicker, or possibly fail altogether. If Rapid Iterator allows Lilly to spawn hordes of monsters, damaging Lilly herself might mean this ability becomes less functional - possibly leading to the bizarre scenario of some of those monsters just winking out of existence as the natural order reasserts itself over Lilly's territory/dungeon ability. She could fix it over time and with effort and reassert it however, though given any situation in which she's taking that level of damage likely lacks the luxury of time and it would not be an option to resolve the problem of a threat that is presumably still attacking. She'd have to fight on with her other abilities.

Slyvena said:

Although destroying the crystal analogue is often the cue for decoupling from the Melange Layer, it is not an actual limitation of such an integration, merely an arbitrary restriction I need not apply. This would cause Lilly's vessel to be no more real than any other pseudo-material within her Domain.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

At the very least I think this supports that a Domain/Dungeon is more of an imposition of rules on reality rather than a static, "real" location. That's not to say that Rapid Iterator monsters can't hurt people - obviously they can, but they're literally spawning constructs based on the location the Ethos took root and are perhaps better conceived as magical familiars created by the Ethos.

[I Tear the Veil] sounds like a forceful kind of data mining. It covers her most glaring hole, ignorance. They deny Lilly intellectual enlightenment around every corner, so she takes away theirs and leaves them in her position of denied knowledge. No secret will ever be truly safe from her.
All her life she has been kept in the dark, for no reason at all. Her family, her home, her city.
Even now on the trek, the soldiers are keeping her in the dark for nebulous gain.
Which really even if they told Lilly that this thing was a dungeon that is clearing space, Lilly hardly understands what those things are. And couldn't possibly infer their plans. Tho I suspect if Lilly is being kept dark on these things it also means that if she chanced on the implications she might want to help these soldiers less.

I'm in favor of [I Tear the Veil], it covers for Lilly's greatest weakness. Her ignorance.

[x] [DreamLVL] The root grew between the rock for years, until finally it split.
Creating multiple bodies? Multiple dreams?
[x] [DreamLVL] It could not lash out at her, she was friend to all.
This one means that the dream couldn't hurt Lilly.

[x] [Milestone] Extend a Power's potential.
- [x] [Milestone-Power] {Collective Communion} (x150%) (DC 40x1.5=60)

[x] [CleaverLVL] It looked harmless, but fate told her the truth.
Danger sense, foreboding. It just seems like a good survival power.
The others are a lot more active, for someone who would want to enact change.

[x] [N:FES] [Overlooked Maiden]
Hide in plain sight. Overlooked maiden. Hah. Hahahahah.
[x] [N:FES] [I Tear the Veil]
Lilly won't be ignorant anymore. No mystery is sacred, every secret within grasp.
[x] [N:FES] [Quickwrit Stennovoker]
I added the runes for effects, since, tho our knowledge is limited which limits the creation... but with sample space, any design would be possible. It pairs up amazingly. We may not retain how we did it, but any effect that's possible... just the smallest moment of sample space would turn this into a cocked gun that can do anything.
[x][N:FES] [Sorcerer]

[X] [S:FES] [Reinterpretation Seed | 566-B, Manoth Placement Approval Only ]

[x] [SoT] Core Anchor
[x] [SoT] Will Form

Striker sounds super powerful. It is coordinating in the metaphysical game. It'd combine with pretty much everything. Life, a game of chess. And it would amazingly synergize with cleavers She stabbed him in the heart, to kill his lover. Then again, they would overlap, perhaps that's not synergy.

I am a lying liar who lies and will take my own hand at looking at the Foundational Ethea but from the angle of what their purposes are and what that says about the setting at large/powers that be. That probably makes it a lot less useful for use in determining the vote, but I wanted to tackle these from a different angle.

[Rapid Iterator | 2873-2A, Efficient Tension Sustainment] (Foundational): (Essence)
I used this as my example in my earlier speculation so I briefly mentioned this but parse through the technical language and it's pretty straightforward. It's meant to be implemented in a place where the population is stronger than the local predators but not too much stronger. Its play is to construct monster versions of those local predators ("upscaled facsimiles of existing wildlife") at the approximate level of the population and then adjust to keep things in the "optimal level of development." Translation: Lilly levels up so it makes sense to assume everyone does. This Dungeon/Vector is for an area where people ("integrator forces") have gotten a bit ahead of their local food chain and need to be given a challenge - because the resulting conflict will cause them to literally level-up and develop, and the recommended tweak is to keep the dungeon at pace to keep the growth going. You know, the standard, "conflict drives human growth" idea. You'll see this rise up in the following ones too. It even takes care to note that the constructed monsters should be rendered infertile so you don't have the population go out of control and ruin everything.

[Towering Edifice to Heaven | 7958-A Series, Regional Stressor Event] (Foundational): (Deific)
"rebalance conflict trending too far towards an unscheduled genocide resolution" Real comforting to know there are apparently scheduled ones. But basically if you've got a war going on and one side is winning too hard, this is meant to put a thumb on the scales to equalize things again... by apparently dropping a dungeon on the heads of the winning side to weaken them. It might be an actual tower but it might also just be a reference to the Tower of Babel and pride. Keeping in the theme of maintaining conflict for the purposes of growth this comes with a warning that this dungeon is not meant to eliminate the people you've dropped it on, just to get them back on par with whatever group(s) they were on the verge of eliminating before you dropped this on them.

[Reinterpretation Seed | 566-B, Manoth Placement Approval Only ] (Foundational): (Oath) {Inverted}
One of the tougher ones to crack, perhaps fitting for an Inverted Ethos. ...I'm still not entirely sure what an inversion would mean in this context. My best take on this is that Manoth has been permitted to experiment but it would be preferred if he do so in areas that appear to be well... static, like it says. If we assume the overarching theme of the powers that be is maintaining conflict at optimal levels for fostering growth, I think this means they'd rather these dungeons be placed in areas where they don't have high expectations for that happening but like I said, this one is tricky to me. If the overarching theme is "conflict drives growth" could an inversion be more like "introspection drives growth?" and it's like one of those "You're confronted by your inner fears and have to overcome them?" Eh, probably shouldn't speculate without any concrete info but it's so tempting.

[Malleable Elemental Pioneer | 1000-A, 'No Focal Concept Selected'] (Foundational): (Mana)
The very first sentence is intriguing in that it sets a minimum density for their placement in "high-magic regions." Why? To uphold the masquerade that they're naturally occurring events in such high-magic regions? Then there's the note that they shouldn't be left in "omni-state" but customized to match "nearby premium Integrators." So it looks like these are dungeons custom made for people who have been singled out as having high potential. That they're recommended to be set to defensive to avoid damage to biodiversity is interesting in that biodiversity has come up again and as something to protect. It does recommend some roaming monsters to "leak out" to help the dungeon be discovered, presumably by those it was custom made for. Sounds like this is the go-to for the powers that be to test and grow promising mages.

[Malice Labyrinth | 0017, Discontinued Indefinitely] (Foundational): (Pithe)
Ah, there we go, the closest to an outright statement that the objective of our powers that be is to foster the development of people by keeping them in a state of struggle and conflict. This dungeon is given a negative review in its description because it tends to either totally wipe out its challengers or get rolled over by them with no in-between which is the sweet spot they're looking for. It notes that this dungeon is more focused on "misdirection" (Illusions? Feints? Ambushes?) than "direct confrontation" and while this helps sharpen the minds of the challenging adventurers ("enhancing mental frameworks") that they have more efficient ways to do so. "Compensation approved for inconvenienced Weavers" ...Are they approving pay for the poor folks who had to develop these?

[Infernal Realm Anchor | 0414-C, Demi-plane Overlay] (Foundational): (Mana)
One of the darker ones when you parse the description. It sounds like this dungeon's very existence gets a bit too close to the underpinnings of how the world works to be considered safe for mortals (or perhaps to the gods?) To the point where if, in spite of the intentional design choices meant to obscure how it works, if people start getting too close... "In the event of inappropriate progress, a genocide resolution may be necessary as a forestalling remedy." There's numerous references to "Melange" here which taken with Evie's SoT vote commentary appears to be the technical term for the world that Lilly lives in. Taking that into account this line, "as the Melange Tapestry continues to mature" is interesting as it suggests this world is still a work in progress. We're told we're in the 7th Era... were 1-6 failed attempts?

[Blanket Weaponiser | 7441-C, Generic Inspiring Obstacle] (Foundational): (No Set Source)
Sounds like the stock, generic dungeon in the minds of the powers that be and a place where they can throw in some ideas that may have been left on the cutting room floor for the other designs to see what happens. It's set to match wherever it's placed and is meant to keep a population from getting too comfortable and to keep spurring development of more and stronger powers. More explicit mention of "encourage healthy conflict"

[Championed Uplift | 0000-A, 2nd​ Integration Stage Initializer] (Foundational): (Legend)
This... this is interesting because in some ways it sounds remarkably similar to Lilly's situation with Evie. This dungeon sounds like a test for one specific highly promising person who has been "sponsored." ...I think this may have been the kind of dungeon Lilly would have been supposed to take on to acquire Evie if everything went through the proper channels to make sure that both Lilly's self-identity wouldn't collapse upon having a being like Evie bind to her and also to make sure a being like Evie wouldn't "irretrievably scatter your Divinity." Despite the use of irretrievable here the following sentence makes it sound a bit less permanent but it still carries of the penalty of having all your potential hosts kicked to the back of the line. This also has the additional tag of Immediate Recall Mandatory so it sounds like this service has been decommissioned. Because of The Maw? A prior catastrophic failure? The note puts the estimate on reinstatement at 1400 years.

[Library of Achievement | 5034-CD, Ancient Recaller] (Foundational): (Concordance/Legend)
Hmm, interesting. This seems less like a dungeon and more like a cover story. The purpose is to change the person's Ethos to something deemed more productive if they're considered to be in a deadend but otherwise seem to be a promising individual. I think the whole "onplane agent" thing is because this is so nonstandard, they want to be super careful and controlled on who they let into these places because they don't want the truth of what's going on to get out - it's mentioned that the new Ethos should be similar enough to the person's original one that they come to the mistaken belief that what really happened was they just had it branch in a new direction rather than actually replaced. Additional security is in place in having these dungeons recalled on short (I assume decades are short to the powers that be) timeframes in order to prevent people from investigating them.

Overall it's pretty unquestionable that the goal the powers that be have here is keeping people in a state of conflict because they believe this is the most efficient way to have them develop their Ethos/Integration Vectors. Many of them explicitly note to that effect and some come with notes that they should be deployed in situations where the balance of power has gotten a bit tilted too far in one direction to even things up again. There is also a strong, strong emphasis on upholding the masquerade - several of the Foundational Ethea have detailed security and discovery protocols listed with even explicit notes that killing everyone who may be getting close to certain truths is standard operating procedure. That last bit is potentially alarming if we take the Guard's "Rampant or Broken?" as a sign that maybe, just maybe, they're starting to get close to the nature of these dungeons. Is that an acceptable truth to know? If not, what might be in store if someone finds out? Is that why Captain Martin took such a small group? InfoSec?

Left untouched is the question of "why." Why such a focus on strengthening people and powers? It likely has something to do with the greater conflict with the Maw but I think it's still unclear.

Alcor said:

It might be an actual tower but it might also just be a reference to the Tower of Babel and pride.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I took it as something like the Tower from Kami No Tou, where you face off against the tower to ascend to its top and achieve new power along the way and as a reward for making it to the top. (so the weavers would drop it on the losing side so they can improve the strength of their fighters.)

Alcor said:

"Compensation approved for inconvenienced Weavers" ...Are they approving pay for the poor folks who had to develop these?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

This read to me that weavers who tried out this dungeon would be compensated for the inconvenience the dungeon caused them when it didn't work as promised.

Alcor said:

This also has the additional tag of Immediate Recall Mandatory so it sounds like this service has been decommissioned. Because of The Maw? A prior catastrophic failure? The note puts the estimate on reinstatement at 1400 years.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I read this part very differently. The Foundational Ethos is tailored only to a single person, so when that person is done (either by winning against the dungeon and earning the 2nd integration stage or by failing and dying/going mad) that dungeon has to be recalled immediately so nobody else stumbles over it. The estimate provided isn't for how long it takes until the dungeon can be called up again, but how long it takes until progress in the world has reached the level where anyone can reach the 2nd integration stage without going through this specific dungeon to initialise it. Keep in mind that the testing referred to here are the identity fracture trials being performed in the dungeon:

Slyvena said:

Current projections before widespread 2nd​ Stage Initialisations can be reliably applied without prior testing; fourteen Millennia.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

[X] Plan: Rise Young Girl To the Heavens like a Legend! (Hopefully with less tang)

Slyvena said:

[ ] [CleaverLVL] No one knew her future, not even herself.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Just want to share my first thought about this without getting into the rest of the discussion I still have to catch up on.

But I feel this is actually pretty bad for us as useful as it is to be fateless cause if we can't predict our own future than how will Ladder work? Cause Ladder is a big help to us so cutting into its ability to predict the future more than it already is due to Cleaver's other stuff (iirc Ladder works currently by not predicting Lilly herself but everything and everyone else and the possibilities that come about if Lilly takes certain actions).

[X] Plan: Rise Young Girl To the Heavens like a Legend! (Hopefully with less tang)

sheep-dodger said:

I took it as something like the Tower from Kami No Tou, where you face off against the tower to ascend to its top and achieve new power along the way and as a reward for making it to the top. (so the weavers would drop it on the losing side so they can improve the strength of their fighters.)

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Ah, I see. That's an interesting take. I could see that.

sheep-dodger said:

I read this part very differently. The Foundational Ethos is tailored only to a single person, so when that person is done (either by winning against the dungeon and earning the 2nd integration stage or by failing and dying/going mad) that dungeon has to be recalled immediately so nobody else stumbles over it. The estimate provided isn't for how long it takes until the dungeon can be called up again, but how long it takes until progress in the world has reached the level where anyone can reach the 2nd integration stage without going through this specific dungeon to initialise it. Keep in mind that the testing referred to here are the identity fracture trials being performed in the dungeon:

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

...You know what, I think you're right. That interpretation sounds better to me.


[X] [DreamLVL] She carried it with her always, no matter how far apart they drifted.
[X] [Milestone] Extend a Power's potential.
- [X] [Milestone-Power] {Golden Rapture} (x150%) (DC 40x1.5=60)
[X] [DwtFAME] I embrace the connection between all things. (Chapter 2.1)
[X] [CleaverLVL] It looked harmless, but fate told her the truth.
[X] [N:FES] [My Resolution, Thy Bedrock]
[X] [S:FES] [Reinterpretation Seed | 566-B, Manoth Placement Approval Only ]
[X] [SoT] Core Anchor

I considered approval voting because there's basically two options in each vote I'm pretty okay with but I'll go with this now. I'm largely in agreement with Alectai for most of the votes but on Foundational Ethos I'm basically going for the mystery box here. As for Scope of Transformation... I'm taking Evie's compromise position here. I think the prospect of effectively gaining a Soul Gem that lets us recover from non-Crystal Analogue damage in a matter of hours is too good a deal to pass up since Evie sounds reasonably confident she can hide most of the modifications. She also teases that this will allow for future possibilities down the line. The only reason I'm not going to the extreme of Will Form is that that weakness to Concept related attacks sounds really scary. We might be able to cover for anything Evie misses between Ladder and Sample Space and if that was the only concern I think I'd talk myself into that vote but the problem of magic working non-intuitively on Lilly under this option just makes it too tough to select.

[I Tear the Veil] seems absolutely fascinating but it also feels pretty close to a one way trip towards a darker path for Lilly if we take its application literally. Gaining knowledge can be helpful, but actually taking it from people who understand it in its greater context and can put that knowledge to better use? Let's say we used this to rip some of the answers Lilly wanted from Captain Martin about why we're striking at the heart of this corruption rather than going to the Prime Tree. We'll get our answer but if he literally forgets that same information it could compromise his decision making. It could also blow our cover if the rest of the guard realizes we did something to his memory. I'm providing this just as an example, but if this kind of power activated carelessly it could be hugely problematic. If we want to go the route of Lily as a loner, maybe, but I think that's not going to have a high survival rate at this point. It sounds more like doubling down on Lilly's bitterness against the people around her, Tooth and Nail already has a note stating following it could lead to a dark path and I think this would be a big push.

Considering the prime tree is part of Lilly.... if we picked the Core Anchor. Could the core be made part of the tree body rather than the Lilly body?