How many turns was it until BA left our workshop?
The point I meant for you take from that wasn't that we might not use the item, Ghal Maraz was an artifact of Smednir and had been around for millenia, I think its a ridiculous claim to say that in all that time it wasn't used. Although if keeping it in constant use is the solution a Gronti is probably the wrong choice, there are millenia after the war of the beard that they were inactive for that the transition could happen in anyway.
It was that what the item is used for and when is probably more important than it being in constant use and its extemely difficult for us to control that. However I've already said ways that its easier for us to control the message.
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A better way would be to make inroads with the cult of Grimnir and then send the message by how we shape their commissions, so that we're actually working with the people who have their ears to the ground. It seems like typical questor arrogance to just assume that we know best without even consulting the priests of this god. However even less than that, we could just try and line up the timing with some anniversary of import rather than just whenever. And I also can't get over the assumption that people are just going to change their view of their god because they saw this statue.
An important thing here, is that I am not advocating not trying, I am not even advocating no Grimnir Gronti.
I am saying that of all the possible arguments in favour of the Golem, this particular one is a bad idea.
Oh also, Dwarf-Brana relations where solidified when the KoS ripped his heart out to give to the Ancestors as proof of his word. Stormwrath came a couple centuries after that. Very very not a nation shaping artifact.
Silver Wyrm Banner (that has Ancestral Ageis combo) has also barely done anything, the best we can say is that it saved lives during the Debra campaign.
And for all that some people have said BA made a huge impression on the legend of Karak Dum expedition or whatever, all we've actually seen is the Silver Ancestor title, its kinda too soon to see if there'll be long lasting effects but the short term ones could have been any Adamant armour.
It is extremely difficult for us to control when opportunity appears yes. I agree with you on this idea that there are things we can't control, like opportunities for change, but I don't take them forward into meaning that we can't or shouldn't do something like you are. I take that to mean that if we do make the Gronti we should do what we can.
Further, making the gronti does not preclude doing other stuff with the cult, you'll have it as a tool to support you while doing that. This specific line of the argument is trying to raise the idea that if we do the gronti that we can't do these other things, and there is no reason to believe that. One or the other might be a better, but frankly since they both have support for being positive ideas, do both and be done with it? If you want to argue priority then do that instead of whether one or the other should be done at all.
I will also point out that when you talk to people
for who the main reason to build the Grimnir Gronti is a potential to change something it does not mean
jack whether you are advocating for no Grimnir Gronti or not overall because effectively to those people you are advocating for no Grimnir Gronti because the only way they can really take it is that their reason for building the gronti is invalid, because that is literally what you are saying. To many people you
are advocating for no Grimnir Gronti and basically saying their reason isn't good enough. It ain't going to exactly get them to support what you want to do, and it is a structurally poor way to go about advocating for what you do want to do (though this is a different structural issue than what I talk about below).
Now the reason I find your arguments against it invalid are as I've laid out, there's structural issues on the objections you are bringing which I've already gone into. And as well like your objection here to the assumption that people looking at it won't be impacted by it. The objection to the assumption lacks context. Of course a really pretty painting won't convert someone to Hinduism, in the large majority of cases I can think of. A super pretty painting is also not a giant magical statue that can slam a demon or giant monster through a wall after it attacked your family's holding. The comparison is invalid on those grounds.
Further my point by bringing up the belief in warrior Grimnir a while back in this argument highlights the differences further. To convert someone to Hinduism means they didn't believe in it first. That is not so here, because people already believe in Warrior Grimnir, therefore that hump is gone and what its doing is reinforcing that belief. The point is to ensure that there is a reminder, an
active reminder that is out there doing good things.
As for the item stuff nitpicking the examples I feel is pointless and not an actually effective critique since it doesn't negate the fact that these powerful items did great things. Barak Azamar has helped craft Zharrgal so even while technically in the workshop its seen use, and after that discovery has continued to see use. The comparison to any other adamant armor I find also doesn't hold water since its allowed us to do a lot more than just tank artillery to the face and is more powerful than other adamant armor we've made like Otrek's. If the idea of a Silver Ancestor story could start up with any adamant armor, then that actually supports my point since most of the time those armors would be weaker and thus have less impact.
Arguing about the Silver Wyrm Banner I don't think gets anywhere due to it coming down to the interpretation of what Grimnir and Valaya said to Snorri at the Conclave about Snorri having made a focus and the bonuses on the roll that led to the power of the Ancestor Gods triumphing over Hashut. I think its just better to agree to disagree on that if you don't interpret it the same way.
My point, is that as a crafter of powerful items, one of our best tools for solving problems is making powerful items when we have indication and examples that doing so can shape nations. Therefore reasons to do something based on that process are valid enough, because that's what the quest has told us works. I don't agree with the idea that it is statistically unlikely for our greatest works on the level of T5 to not have significant impact if we actually try to make that impact happen, because the idea of hundreds of T5s is not substantiated by the lore of warhammer canon even prior to all the disasters. So overall the idea that a T5 will fail to make a nation changing impact if we put in effort seems ridiculous out of hand given the examples we have of T5 things.
Making a giant Grimnir golem to solve or head off a problem 4 thousand years in the future seems wrong to me. It seems like a wrong motivation to have. Too metagamey for me. (Me, I just think a giant Adamant Grimnir is cool, that's all, and want to do it.)
Though, anyway, yeah... To bring it back to the quote:
I will point out that, much like DarkandSilver's own arguments, that this suffers from a similar issue but more so since you actually want the Gronti. If you want to make the Grimnir Gronti, saying directly to people's faces that their reason isn't valid is not exactly going to make them interested in doing what you want to do and is basically knifing your erstwhile allies.
As I said for DarkandSilver, arguing priority like you do in the second part of your post instead is I think going to be more effective.
Been thinking about some stuff. The Eltharin option costs favor and actions, 20 favor with Ravnsvake specifically so that's something to keep in mind for when we want to start doing it eventually. In terms of poking Azakit it seems sensible to me to poke Zufazul first, since its related to that and has its own benefits and is something we can grasp really quickly after what we've done already. Putting favor into Dronril is another thing to do early I think.
The reason I'm thinking this is that having them done and researched while we are able makes progress on the subject while doing things, and our conclusions gathered from them can be revisited if needed after we get deep into alchemy. Overall I expect them to serve as a good basis when getting to the research projects that will open up in the field once we do the legwork, essentially.
Then what I'm thinking is that after at least the Valaya commission, if it turns out we can make chain in time for them, we can grab Eltharin and start getting onto the legwork and finishing Dronril. If it turns out that chain is probably not going to work for the Valayans then we can start squeezing things in earlier and potentially pivot to the Understand Valaya's Basket option. Basically my vibe is that we should be flexible on chain (heh puns), at least after the minimum of committing to get as accurate a picture of the length of time its going to take, if at all possible. I'd like to have it since its pretty rad but if not, ah well.
Though if it turns out that we can't do it before the Valayan commission I would be pretty happy with just picking it up after that commission. It'd just need to be juggled around alchemy stuff and probably Movement of Things/Deep Magic stuff.
