Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

We might have some ancient connection to the Weilu, but Hanyi and Zhengui presumably do not and they certainly don't have ours. If the Ling clan derives legitimacy from our bloodline (which is exactly what the first vote says we will try to do), what does that mean for society's view of them? Will they remain our family?

If our connection to the Weilu comes on our mother's side, does that mean we are acknowledging the people who treated her like shit as relatives in the eyes of society? That's awkward on a number of levels and just about everyone involved would probably rather we didn't.

If it comes from our father's side, Biyu might not share the bloodline. What will that mean for the Ling clan?

In exchange for all that interpersonal messiness we get... what? Our mother's connection to the great clans is known (and thoroughly destroyed) and our father abandoned our mother and us, this gives us nothing new.

[X] There was no need for it. The character for Ling meant 'Zero' and that is what she had started as. If there were any lineage she would claim, it was her teachers, claimed through her own effort.

I actually like this one better as an internal voice of LQ. The other kinda smells of "using shallow blood connections" whereas this closer to "family connections" or so.
(I'm absolutely not opposed to poking it sooner or later)

Insert Tally

[X] There was no need for it. The character for Ling meant 'Zero' and that is what she had started as. If there were any lineage she would claim, it was her teachers, claimed through her own effort.
You know what, i'll change my vote.
While poking has potential, the vagueness of the "useful" bit is tiny bit worrying and the "fuck that" attitude on this one is kinda pleasing.
Doubt it'll matter, but whatevs.

Just out of curiosity...

I get the impression that some have felt that making a connection to the Weilu to be a bad thing. Why?

[X] There was no need for it. The character for Ling meant 'Zero' and that is what she had started as. If there were any lineage she would claim, it was her teachers, claimed through her own effort.

Mephi said:

Just out of curiosity...

I get the impression that some have felt that making a connection to the Weilu to be a bad thing. Why?

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Self determinism vs Hereditary legitimacy.
Relying on bloodlines for legitimacy can be useful, but also requires a level of (public) acceptance of such things as a source of legitimacy.

Can I just say that I find it hilarious that we've managed to turn a "Touch the magic thingamajing: Yes/No" vote into a "this is going to either destroy all our relationships or tank our cultivation!" vote :Ü™

Valmond said:

Self determinism vs Hereditary legitimacy.
Relying on bloodlines for legitimacy can be useful, but also requires a level of (public) acceptance of such things as a source of legitimacy.

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I was getting the impression it was the Weilu specifically that was a problem. Or am I just misreading things?

Mephi said:

I was getting the impression it was the Weilu specifically that was a problem. Or am I just misreading things?

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I don't care if Ling Qi is descended from Tsu the Diviner, Yao the Fisher, the Sage Emperor, or even Cai Shenhua. I just don't want Ling Qi to be flaunting a distant bloodline for diplomatic legitimacy. I'd rather she present herself as a self-made woman.

Mephi said:

I was getting the impression it was the Weilu specifically that was a problem. Or am I just misreading things?

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Nah, it's the buy in on the idea of heredity being important in and of itself.
There is nothing wrong with family being important, but family is different from just genetics or bloodlines, so while i don't take much issue with the Bai thinking their ancestry is important, it is not something i want Ling clan to go for.

Support for Liliet...

[X] It can't hurt to try. The name "Ling" means "zero", but just because you're starting from zero doesn't mean it won't be fun to find out what the negative numbers were! Also, it's literally inconceivable to look at a "poke me and find out a thing" talisman and NOT poke it, damn it.

yrsillar said:

Having your big expensive tapestry self destruct because a servant touched it seems like a design flaw. Also, you carried it up here.

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Got it. There's no threat to the tapestry, instead the threat is to Ling Qi!

Soon it will deploy woven Qi cannons to destroy the upstarts who dare seek their lineage without permission!

Erebeal said:

I'm just really not interested in giving any narrative space to any ideas about our ancestory at all. I just don't see it as important or beneficial to the story - indeed, given people's historical obsession with the idea that our father is special or something, quite the opposite.

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The only thing special about LQ's dad is that he was kidnapped by a fox spirit and sired Su Ling. No I will never abandon this theory.

deadcrystal said:

The only thing special about LQ's dad is that he was kidnapped by a fox spirit and sired Su Ling. No I will never abandon this theory.

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That's some DEEP LORE in support of Su Ling's inescapable future as Ling Ling.

deadcrystal said:

Got it. There's no threat to the tapestry, instead the threat is to Ling Qi!

Soon it will deploy woven Qi cannons to destroy the upstarts who dare seek their lineage without permission!

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And then our dress eats it.

Mephi said:

I was getting the impression it was the Weilu specifically that was a problem. Or am I just misreading things?

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it's relying on the hereditary part that's problematic. Like one could argue that everyone in ES has Weilu blood in them since that's how spread out ancient ducal bloodline can be. That's not the main issue though. The main issue is how Ling Qi will utilize that info in public, which is what I'm mainly opposed on.

[X] There was no need for it. The character for Ling meant 'Zero' and that is what she had started as. If there were any lineage she would claim, it was her teachers, claimed through her own effort.

[X] It can't hurt to try. The name "Ling" means "zero", but just because you're starting from zero doesn't mean it won't be fun to find out what the negative numbers were! Also, it's literally inconceivable to look at a "poke me and find out a thing" talisman and NOT poke it, damn it.

I think that regardless of what happens, it'd be weird not to find out. I'm open to being persuaded otherwise, but let me first lay out my thinking.

Assuming this is relevant to the current story arc, as the primary recipient of goodwill from the Ice Witches and the main reason why diplomacy is on the table at all, if we are to use this artifact to prove a greater connection than merely our own, we do need some familiarity with it. Being skeptical of its utility in convincing the ice witches is one thing - the values of one culture do not necessarily carry over to another, for all we know they don't trace patrilineal or matrilineal descent or any blood at all - they care purely about which spirit you call master, but being ourselves suspicious of it will pretty much neuter its potential from the get-go. We're fairly okay at diplomacy, but given our core is sincerity, we can't expect to fool the professional diplomats of a foreign polity in the same way we fooled the rando spiders.

Granted, the symbolism of Ling Qi and the Ice Witch princess bonding over a mutual rejection of blood would be pretty cool, but - look.

We need to find as many reasons as possible for Ling Qi to be unimportant. She's already way too central to these efforts and a thing that I've been at pains to keep to myself because I don't want to be accused of needless shot stirring is that one of the most important shows of good faith and traditional ways to cement ties between rival polities is to exchange political hostages.

Remember who the Ice Witches are heiresses to. Spirits whose defining feature is they can't let go. Having identified Ling Qi as one of theirs it's entirely likely that they will leap at the chance to have her rejoin the cold (auto-corrected from fold and I'm too tickled to correct it back).

While I'm also not a huge fan of the mystical super speshul heritage angle which - to this day - I think spectacularly muddled the 'any loser can become a shonen hero if they keep trying' that Naruto was going for pre-timeskip, I do think concerns here are overblown. We need to keep in mind the bigger picture. Secure an alliance without having this become Threads of Destiny: Winter Wonderland edition.

Best case scenario: we return with the Ice Witch rep who unofficially joins CRX's ragtag group of misfits as the foreign exchange student.

[X] There was no need for it. The character for Ling meant 'Zero' and that is what she had started as. If there were any lineage she would claim, it was her teachers, claimed through her own effort.

changed my mind after thinking ice witches would react better if we claimed lineage with Zeqing and Hanyi

ok, so lets have a look at the first option again:
[] It can't hurt to try. The Weilu are ancient after all, surely most everyone had a drop or two of their blood in them. Imagine how useful it would be, to claim some ancient connection.

If this was only about being curious about Ling Qi's ancestry, then the vote would be easy, right?
But this isnt all there is to it: this option says we want to use the possibly existing connection. This isnt just in the context of the current arc or the ice witches negotiations, this is said in general. So it is fair to assume that this also means using the blood connection to establish legitimacy for the Ling clan and Ling Qi herself in the Emerald Seas, where the blood connection to the Weilu might hold the most influence.

In general this is a good idea for a new noble clan: those dont have that much power in their clan and they havent built up much influence yet, because they are new. So it makes sense to borrow legitimacy and influence from someone else to improve your standing and this is basically what the claim to an acient connection tries to do. This is something that could probably work for us too.

However, this method also comes with a bunch of issues we cannot ignore. Most of this was mentioned before but:

the first issue is that any blood connection via Qingge's branch of the clan has to acknowledge the He clan as part of our ancestry and this can give them some degree of access/influence with our clan -especially down the line- that we probably arent willing to give them.
If we try to sidestep the issue by establishing our ancestry via Ling Qi's father then suddenly Biyu and her line wont share that bloodline, so she and her line will become a 'lesser' branch of the clan.
Adopted kids also wont share the bloodline, so those would be 'lesser' clan members either way.

Those are serious downsides and here is the thing: we already have a source of legitimacy with CRX and the Cai. It is still going to be rough as a newbie noble clan, but we do have Cai backing and ressources and with that we can afford to let the ancestry go. We can afford to step on the He clan without screwing over our family. And we can afford to acknowledge our mentors, even if it doesnt give us additional backing.

So ultimately, while learning more about Ling Qi's ancestry would be really cool and probably helpful with the ice witches, the long-term issuses claiming that connection will likely give us just seem too much of a dealbreaker, at least to me

[X] It can't hurt to try. The Weilu are ancient after all, surely most everyone had a drop or two of their blood in them. Imagine how useful it would be, to claim some ancient connection.

I just wanna see