Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

4WheelSword · Mar 13, 2019

thread policy Discussion of politics that does not directly relate to the Quest or to Quest votes are banned from hereon out. This thread policy will be enforced by the Moderation team. Do not ignore it.

Night_stalker · Oct 10, 2020

[X][FEUD] Pitch a Hail Mary and see if they'll listen to you if you try to mediate their disputes. Prompts a roll, DC 43.
[X][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.
[X][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.
[X][MEDIATE] Oh, but it is. You have no immediate interest in Minnesota but whatever's going on between Bemidji and Manitoulin intrigues you, and you very much do have a medium-term interest in resolving this conflict to your west before it becomes your problem, later. You will have the option to organize this mediation.

Starship Trooper · Oct 10, 2020

the throne of the tsar must be like the iron throne only instead of the melted down swords of kings its made of the carcasses of nations that good old Alex destroyed on his way to power

and just as deadly if not more so to sit on

kelgar04 · Oct 10, 2020

Starship Trooper said:
ad it to the pile

You know if we pushed this pile onto the Vic's we could wipe them out

Genon · Oct 10, 2020

kelgar04 said:
You know if we pushed this pile onto the Vic's we could wipe them out

I will say one thing about The Pile. I DO want it pushed onto the Vics. In the form of a Nuremberg-style trial accusing them of crimes against humanity.

When the next war rolls around, and it WILL come, once we kick their asses a second time I'd like to occupy them and, if possible, dismantle Retroculture via a systematic effort, much like the US Denazified Germany. If we can handle it, I'd like to annex them. That, or have the CFC take joint control of the area with the FCNY, because handling the clusterfuck that is an occupied Northern Confederation alone is an undertaking that we probably can't handle ourselves.

kelgar04 · Oct 10, 2020

Genon said:
I will say one thing about The Pile. I DO want it pushed onto the Vics. In the form of a Nuremberg-style trial accusing them of crimes against humanity.

When the next war rolls around, and it WILL come, once we kick their asses a second time I'd like to occupy them and, if possible, dismantle Retroculture via a systematic effort, much like the US Denazified Germany. If we can handle it, I'd like to annex them. That, or have the CFC take joint control of the area with the FCNY, because handling the clusterfuck that is an occupied Northern Confederation alone is an undertaking that we probably can't handle ourselves.

Aye

Need to build up though to tear down that sue culture to both tear down the vic, garrisons the vic area and hold our own territory against any patsy the Russians make. We really need to build up more and get our military, infrastructure and industry as sharp and as capable as possible.

aceraptor · Oct 10, 2020

Genon said:
I will say one thing about The Pile. I DO want it pushed onto the Vics. In the form of a Nuremberg-style trial accusing them of crimes against humanity.

When the next war rolls around, and it WILL come, once we kick their asses a second time I'd like to occupy them and, if possible, dismantle Retroculture via a systematic effort, much like the US Denazified Germany. If we can handle it, I'd like to annex them. That, or have the CFC take joint control of the area with the FCNY, because handling the clusterfuck that is an occupied Northern Confederation alone is an undertaking that we probably can't handle ourselves.

We are highly unlikely to be able to defeat Victoria fully the next war. The next war will likely be something like breaking our hand to cripple Victoria and setting up for the final war to end it as a nation once we've recovered.

The Victoria that comes out of the civil war will be a whole different beast to the one we defeated. Don't expect to be able to conquer it in the next war.

uju32 · Oct 10, 2020

Genon said:
I will say one thing about The Pile. I DO want it pushed onto the Vics. In the form of a Nuremberg-style trial accusing them of crimes against humanity.

When the next war rolls around, and it WILL come, once we kick their asses a second time I'd like to occupy them and, if possible, dismantle Retroculture via a systematic effort, much like the US Denazified Germany. If we can handle it, I'd like to annex them. That, or have the CFC take joint control of the area with the FCNY, because handling the clusterfuck that is an occupied Northern Confederation alone is an undertaking that we probably can't handle ourselves.

Not likely to happen.

Expect three wars at a minimum, not two. We will not have the industrial and economic power, or the population, to both beat them in the field and physically occupy them in less than that, nor do we have the intelligence penetration with whatever resistance groups currently exist or will spring up in the aftermath of the series of disasters Victoria has just undergone.

Furthermore Russia is going to have to cut bait at some point before we can really get stuck in.
Else you'll just run face first into a VDV division or two, with airstrikes staging out of the Arctic Conservatiate.

Starship Trooper · Oct 10, 2020

the next war will be about who can hit the others heartland

Simon_Jester · Oct 10, 2020

Starship Trooper said:
the throne of the tsar must be like the iron throne only instead of the melted down swords of kings its made of the carcasses of nations that good old Alex destroyed on his way to power

and just as deadly if not more so to sit on

Boris Yeltsin's Drunken Ghost:

"Isssh like I shhaaaid. You can build a, a, wossname, a throne outta bay... bayo... bayo-nets, but you can't sit on it very long."

At least I hear he said that.

Ikacprzak · Oct 10, 2020

kelgar04 said:
Aye

Need to build up though to tear down that sue culture to both tear down the vic, garrisons the vic area and hold our own territory against any patsy the Russians make. We really need to build up more and get our military, infrastructure and industry as sharp and as capable as possible.

One area we should focus on is the education system, we need teachers we can trust teaching a curriculum that makes us look good, and Victoria look bad. History doesn't have to be written by the winners, just reinterpreted.

Ikacprzak · Oct 10, 2020

Once we turn or attention back to Jamesons spy network, I have a few proposals.
1) Begin centralizing agents and operatives to build our own CIA and train future operatives.
2) Try to assassinate Gideon Blackwell, if the civil war doesn't get him we should, he's a true believer, but he's also a critical thinker who could restructure the armed forces into more of a challenge.
3) I also don't want us arming either side of the civil war, maybe third parties that can sabotage the whole thing.

Crazy7s1 · Oct 10, 2020

[X][FEUD] Pitch a Hail Mary and see if they'll listen to you if you try to mediate their disputes. Prompts a roll, DC 43.

[X][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.

[X][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.

[X][MEDIATE] Oh, but it is. You have no immediate interest in Minnesota but whatever's going on between Bemidji and Manitoulin intrigues you, and you very much do have a medium-term interest in resolving this conflict to your west before it becomes your problem, later. You will have the option to organize this mediation.

Stabbtmcstabstab · Oct 10, 2020

[X][FEUD] Pitch a Hail Mary and see if they'll listen to you if you try to mediate their disputes. Prompts a roll, DC 43.

[X][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.

[X][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.

[X][MEDIATE] Oh, but it is. You have no immediate interest in Minnesota but whatever's going on between Bemidji and Manitoulin intrigues you, and you very much do have a medium-term interest in resolving this conflict to your west before it becomes your problem, later. You will have the option to organize this mediation.

picklepikkl · Oct 10, 2020

kelgar04 said:
Ok may never seen an episode of his but I know his rep and the Vics need to die in a fire for censoring him.

Though the man himself wouldn't approve of that thought.

Don't be so sure. Mister Rogers went... well, Super Saiyan isn't correct, dude had control of his emotions, but as close as it gets over the KKK using an imitator to peddle racist rhetoric to children. He was an ordained minister; I am pretty sure he was familiar with the verse about "It would be better to be thrown into the sea with a millstone hung around your neck than to cause one of these little ones to fall into sin."

[X][FEUD] Pitch a Hail Mary and see if they'll listen to you if you try to mediate their disputes. Prompts a roll, DC 43.

[X][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.

[X][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.

[X][MEDIATE] Oh, but it is. You have no immediate interest in Minnesota but whatever's going on between Bemidji and Manitoulin intrigues you, and you very much do have a medium-term interest in resolving this conflict to your west before it becomes your problem, later. You will have the option to organize this mediation.

la la la voting the bandwagon that I am sure our QM has roadblocks set up for at some point

AKuz · Oct 10, 2020

Simon_Jester said:
Boris Yeltsin's Drunken Ghost:

"Isssh like I shhaaaid. You can build a, a, wossname, a throne outta bay... bayo... bayo-nets, but you can't sit on it very long."

At least I hear he said that.

Considering his death count, he'd probably be one to know.

EBR said:
Yes. These are the "homosexuality is bourgeosie degeneracy", "counter-revolutionary propaganda will not be tolerated", and "death to Kulaks" sort of communism.

Not that Kavion Simpson is great- he's a generic warlord- but the MSR can't claim any moral high ground.

At least that was the idea.

*pinches bridge of nose*

Fucking really? Can't have nice things in the post-collapse.

I'd assumed they were a red-flavoured dictatorship.

*sigh*

Oh well, vote remains the same, we'll need to undermine their ideological rationale and them being forced into our arms means they have to at least tolerate us whole we can probably just end up buying out Traverse. If they're an actual ML state there should be party mechanisms to fuck with as well as some remnant ideoligcal drive to actually acomplish their stated ends which is eminently co-optible.

Simon_Jester · Oct 10, 2020

AKuz said:
Considering his death count, he'd probably be one to know.

Well yes.

I just thought that having Alexander IV be rambled at by the ghost of fucking Boris Yeltsin, who he might very well hate more than any other historical figure living or dead, was too good to pass up.

They deserve each other.

*pinches bridge of nose*

Fucking really? Can't have nice things in the post-collapse.

I'd assumed they were a red-flavoured dictatorship.

I mean, it sounds like they are, they're just... uh... like a lot of the red-flavored dictatorships of the 20th century? Tankies gonna tank.

This is not an unprecedented or unrealistic form of government we're dealing with. My main surprise is that the Vicks didn't burn them out harder, and I suspect the reason why is "the Vicks concluded that the chaos they caused by existing was more valuable than the satisfaction of beating them to death."

uju32 · Oct 10, 2020

AKuz said:
*pinches bridge of nose*
Fucking really? Can't have nice things in the post-collapse.I'd assumed they were a red-flavoured dictatorship.

*sigh*

Oh well, vote remains the same, we'll need to undermine their ideological rationale and them being forced into our arms means they have to at least tolerate us whole we can probably just end up buying out Traverse. If they're an actual ML state there should be party mechanisms to fuck with as well as some remnant ideoligcal drive to actually acomplish their stated ends which is eminently co-optible.

They ARE a red-flavored dictatorship. With everything that implies.
Canon omake citation, where the Vic high command were discussing the Lakes situation:

EBR said:
"Yes sir. The Michigan Soviet Republic also granted the enemy basing rights at Muskegon. That was mildly surprising; Grand Rapids hates us but the Commies in Chicago hate Grand Rapids also- some doctrinal dispute apparently."[2]
"We really should have dealt with the MSR a while ago."

"Well, the tyrant who runs the place is more concerned with staying in power than ideology. We've actually worked with him a time or two."
"One of those then."
"Yes sir."

EBR said:
[2] The sort of people who refer to Social Democrats as "social fascists" and ended up under the rule of their very own version of the Georgian bank robber. The communists in Chicago are not the same as old-fashioned communists, but these guys are basically Stalinists for all intents and purposes- whatever ideological justifications they subscribe to. The good news is that their dictator is just as amenable to working with non-communists as the original Stalin, and he sees opportunities in working with us. Either we win and he has a friendly relationship with the new regional power, or we lose and he has a shot at taking the newly shattered Chicago under his wing once Victoria withdraws.

Communist China saw its way to working with the US against the USSR and Vietnam.
And Kissinger ran interference for the Khmer Rouge.

Dictatorships of the Red persuasion are more likely to throw up Ceaușescus and Kims than to produce Titos and Castros.

Simon_Jester said:
I mean, it sounds like they are, they're just... uh... like a lot of the red-flavored dictatorships of the 20th century? Tankies gonna tank.

This is not an unprecedented or unrealistic form of government we're dealing with. My main surprise is that the Vicks didn't burn them out harder, and I suspect the reason why is "the Vicks concluded that the chaos they caused by existing was more valuable than the satisfaction of beating them to death."

This.
If you don't care about the collateral damage, why invest the time and effort in exterminating an ideology when it's adherents will discredit themselves for you?

Grand Rapids MI, where the MSR is based out of, is the biggest city in Michigan after Detroit, and the biggest in Eastern Michigan, with 200k in the city proper and over 1 mill in the metro area.The Vics wouldn't have left an openly Marxist-branded administration in charge if they were halfway effective, popular or principled. Sandusky wasn't hiding their Communist affiliations because it was safe.

Dictators can be effective at achieving their goal regardless of their ideology. No one disputes that; Toledo used to be ruled by one.
But say what you will about the merits of Communism as an ideology, Stalinist is never used as a compliment for a political administration.

fasquardon · Oct 10, 2020

uju32 said:
Canon omake citation, where the Vic high command were discussing the Lakes situation:

I mean... I wouldn't trust the Victorians to know Communism when actually faced with it. Let alone understand why an ideologically committed Marxist might be able to deal with them if they had to or why an ideologically committed Marxist might have ended up being a dictator by following the path of good intentions to the hot place.

My own feeling is that the MSR are much like the Dixons. Or like any number of the Commonwealth's own heavyweights. Thoroughly morally compromised.

And Traverse City sounds just the same really. So let's give both parties another chance to let the better angels of their nature free.

I feel pretty strongly that we want to guarantee the Sandusky Commune. It has a real nice position on the lake, it would be a huge pain if Victoria took it and was able to use it as a base to strike at us. Formally guaranteeing them is an unvarnished good as far as I am concerned.

[X][FEUD] Pitch a Hail Mary and see if they'll listen to you if you try to mediate their disputes. Prompts a roll, DC 43.
[X][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.
[X][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.
[X][MEDIATE] Oh, but it is. You have no immediate interest in Minnesota but whatever's going on between Bemidji and Manitoulin intrigues you, and you very much do have a medium-term interest in resolving this conflict to your west before it becomes your problem, later. You will have the option to organize this mediation.

fasquardon

KnightDisciple · Oct 10, 2020

[X][FEUD] Pitch a Hail Mary and see if they'll listen to you if you try to mediate their disputes. Prompts a roll, DC 43.
[X][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.
[X][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.
[X][MEDIATE] Oh, but it is. You have no immediate interest in Minnesota but whatever's going on between Bemidji and Manitoulin intrigues you, and you very much do have a medium-term interest in resolving this conflict to your west before it becomes your problem, later. You will have the option to organize this mediation.

Random Member · Oct 11, 2020

Maa, we just need to replace their Stalin with C O R N M A N!

Simon_Jester · Oct 11, 2020

fasquardon said:
I mean... I wouldn't trust the Victorians to know Communism when actually faced with it. Let alone understand why an ideologically committed Marxist might be able to deal with them if they had to or why an ideologically committed Marxist might have ended up being a dictator by following the path of good intentions to the hot place.

Ehh. If the MSR is conspicuous enough that we've noticed, the Vicks probably at least noticed the red flags and things.

Again, Grand Rapids is too large and important a place to entrust to someone the Victorians consider a threat. The bare fact that the MSR exists is strong evidence that for one reason or another, the Victorians didn't see them as threatening.

Since the very existence of communist ideology pushes some of the Vicks' buttons, there must have been something else, some even bigger force, pushing the Victorians to feel that the MSR was not a threat. The most likely explanations are:

1) That the MSR is strong and longlasting (by post-Collapse warlord government standards), but also brutish, ineffective, and unpopular. So much so that in effect they are constantly unstable, and unlikely to be able to expand or consolidate a regional power bloc. Certainly not one capable of actually threatening Victoria. If they were around in 2070 but not a threat to Victoria, because they spent (and still spend!) 90% of their energy quashing revolts and dissent in their own territory, that explains their continued survival. Alternatively...

2) They were a lot smaller three or four years ago, but grew rapidly in the power vacuum created by Hellfire Burns devastating Victorian spy networks and by the Victorians not sending any punitive expeditions into Lake Michigan in 2072-75. They survived by being too weak to attract attention until now, and have been taking advantage of the conditions we created to prosper.

...

In case (2) they've made a lot of enemies by conquest, I suspect, but on the other hand they owe a lot of good fortune to us and may be on some level grateful.

In case (1) they are likely to be very unpopular with their own population, something we need to be very careful about because of the thread's known bias (myself included) to look for potential political left-wing allies. We should not assume that just because they are avowed socialists, that they are popular or loved by the masses. Certainly a lot of avowed socialists of the 20th century were not.

Random Member · Oct 11, 2020

It's quite simple though. We have already achieved socialism*, therefore Comrade General-Secretary's transitional guidance over Michigan is no longer required. He should step down and integrate his soviet republic into the Commonwealth to advance the American revolution!

*Whether that's actually the case or not is details, let's not make him worry about that.

Durabys · Oct 11, 2020

@PoptartProdigy
Did you hear about this?

Vote Tally: Scheduled voting

Scheduled Voting, is now an option for quest runners (and collaborators). Back in August, a number of vote tally changes where rolled out, and today the final features have finally been enabled after a pile of testing. A new start/end point is now possible; This can be dated into the future...

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

Now you can make delayed voting moratoriums in-system.

Starship Trooper · Oct 11, 2020

when are we going to send the war brides home to Cali?
someone, not me(i am dyslexic :sad:

) should make an omake about it

uju32 · Oct 11, 2020

fasquardon said:
I mean... I wouldn't trust the Victorians to know Communism when actually faced with it. Let alone understand why an ideologically committed Marxist might be able to deal with them if they had to or why an ideologically committed Marxist might have ended up being a dictator by following the path of good intentions to the hot place.

My own feeling is that the MSR are much like the Dixons. Or like any number of the Commonwealth's own heavyweights. Thoroughly morally compromised.

And Traverse City sounds just the same really. So let's give both parties another chance to let the better angels of their nature free.

I feel pretty strongly that we want to guarantee the Sandusky Commune. It has a real nice position on the lake, it would be a huge pain if Victoria took it and was able to use it as a base to strike at us. Formally guaranteeing them is an unvarnished good as far as I am concerned.

[X][FEUD] Pitch a Hail Mary and see if they'll listen to you if you try to mediate their disputes. Prompts a roll, DC 43.
[X][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.
[X][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.
[X][MEDIATE] Oh, but it is. You have no immediate interest in Minnesota but whatever's going on between Bemidji and Manitoulin intrigues you, and you very much do have a medium-term interest in resolving this conflict to your west before it becomes your problem, later. You will have the option to organize this mediation.

fasquardon

It doesnt require extraordinary insight to recognize a faction's purported ideological alignment of choice when they literally put Soviet in the name. Noone mistakes the ideological alignment of nation-states and NGOs with Soviet or People's Democratic Republic in their chosen titles for anything other than what they are.

I mean, lets get real here; much as we like to point and ridicule the Vics, they ran this part of North America for over three decades.

They have had a Russian-assisted intelligence and direct action network across much of disgoverned America for all of that time.Their ideological blind spots do not actually make them stupid, and their antipathy towards anything hinting at Cultural Marxism, let alone outright communism would lead to overreactions not restraint.

Consider that in Chicago, according to canonized omake, when a councilman tried to clean up the CPD, a Vic division showed up and hanged him and almost three hundred others. The fact that a purportedly communist Michigan Soviet Republic openly exists, centered in a major city less than four hundred miles from Victoria's borders should get all the side-eye.

Starship Trooper said:
when are we going to send the war brides home to Cali?
someone, not me(i am dyslexic) should make an omake about it

If there are surviving Californian sex slaves that we can lay our hands on, sure. But it's been thirty years since the Pacific War.
Don't expect very many.
Most of the abductees we're likely to see are going to be locals, from the Midwest/Ontario/Pennsylvania area. Maybe the South as well.

Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

The original N-body Problem

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