Voting is open
Been a while so I'm dusting off the old conference spreadsheet.

- Between a dictatorship and a communist dictatorship, I'm taking the reds. Michigan Soviet Republic. Maybe we'll get an excuse to knock over the tinpot dictator in Traverse City while we're at it.
- While our goal is to bring them in eventually, my momma had a saying about flies and honey. Guarantee their independence. If we have to back that up with force against Victoria, so be it.
- I'm just begging the Shawnee Kingdom to give us a casus belli. Alliance it is.
- Minnesota legitimists? You bet we wanna sort that tangle out. If Bemidji turns out to be legit, we can drag in a couple other factions, plus Chippewa Nation hoooo!

That comes out to:

[x][FEUD] Ally with the MSR. Traverse City will cancel your basing rights. In the event of the feud going hot, Traverse City will be well-placed to interdict the Straits of Mackinac.

[x][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.

[x][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.

[x][MEDIATE] Oh, but it is. You have no immediate interest in Minnesota but whatever's going on between Bemidji and Manitoulin intrigues you, and you very much do have a medium-term interest in resolving this conflict to your west before it becomes your problem, later. You will have the option to organize this mediation.
 
[X][FEUD] Pitch a Hail Mary and see if they'll listen to you if you try to mediate their disputes. Prompts a roll, DC 43.

[X][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.

[X][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.

[X][MEDIATE] Oh, but it is. You have no immediate interest in Minnesota but whatever's going on between Bemidji and Manitoulin intrigues you, and you very much do have a medium-term interest in resolving this conflict to your west before it becomes your problem, later. You will have the option to organize this mediation.

Acting decently, no. What will lose Legitimacy is acting affirmatively and substantively to make material recompense for American and Canadian wrongs to the First Nations (with Legitimacy losses scaling in proportion to how much you claim heritage with either of those nations). Like, just being non-assholes to First Nations people and groups isn't going to lose you anything aside from the approval of assholes; you can be an acceptable government for such peoples to participate in without losing a single point of Legitimacy. It's actually making meaningful sacrifices that impact your majority populations in order to make up for what the First Nations have suffered that makes you discernably less America.
Huh, I'm actually a little surprised. It's not that I don't agree that making meaningful reparations to First Nations peoples is a drastic break from how pre-Collapse (RL) USA behaves in that regard, but I was vaguely under the impression that the rampant glorification of and nostalgia for pre-Collapse America when faced with a post-Victoria world would have whitewashed that aspect of American history a little.

I mean, current day education systems are already whitewashing US history by skimming over the uncomfortable bits where horrible horrible things were done to Black or Native groups, so people having a better grasp of just how things went down despite the country (and full-time schooling) being smashed to smithereens by the racist/anti-intellectual/murderous Victorians seems pretty weird to me.
me.me.here threw 1 6-faced dice. Reason: test Total: 6
6 6
 
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Local Conference
Unity
-Does the Moderator have Jim Bercow's voice? Because there's no way you didn't choose this format without malice aforethought.

-Hawkins, huh?
I saw that Brooks/Sumner reference you tried to slip in there, @PoptartProdigy.
Sneaky.

-ERROR:
They nod to you. "Comments from the chamber?" They look around. "Yes, Senator McCormick, from Rockford."

Mel McCormick,
amidst the Opposition on the left, scowls at you. "This deal indentures us to the Russian Empire," she growls. "You're asking us to agree to purchase equipment we can't make, using parts we can't maintain, on Russian money that we can't replace, all so that we have a power system we can't expand thanks to deals we can't renege without looking like fools. Well, I'm not a fool, and this deal is foolish. I won't vote for it! I yield the floor!" She sits down again, still glaring.

You hardly wait for the Moderator's cue before replying. "I feel that the Senator from Milwaukee misses something in her analysis," you say, lips thin.
Can't be from Rockford and Milwaukee at the same time.

-A little surprised that Sara's arguments for the treaty didn't explicitly call out the fact that said climate change/sea level shenanigans explicitly affect American communities too. That a demonstration of interest in the welfare of those coastal communities *cough FCNY, Miami* might well be reciprocated in the short or medium term.

That it's as much a self-interest and American brotherhood thing as it is an international diplomacy thing.

-It's nice to have acknowledgement from Sara IC that everyone, including her, had to make compromises, had to turn a blind eye to...stuff to survive.
That sort of self-awareness is necessary if there is going to be any healing in the short to medium term.
Especially with the whole issue with the Dixons.

-Going to note that the actual conference meeting was on February 14.
Happy Valentine's Day, Prince Young.
Hope you choke on it.

-Dixon's black? Oh. That explains a lot of things, about both him and the crime family he's fronting.
In a post-Victoria America where shit has rolled downhill and landed most heavily on people who were already at the bottom of the social and economic totem pole, I can see why they would have a distinctly self-interested outlook.

Especially coming from St Louis, a city thats roughly 50% Black compared to Chicago's 30%.
And almost certainly got treated accordingly by the Vics.

-Katerina's open amusement and delight suggests that she didn't actually expect the Commonwealth to take the deal.
She might have hoped, but she didn't expect.Its also worth noting in passing that Sara did not notify her that Congress ratified the treaty proposal before announcing it publicly. Flair for the dramatic, Madame President.

I'm looking forward to thinking of what Blackwell's face looks like in Augusta when he gets the news.

-Obviously we have to take all the diplomatic options.
Remember, the Vics spent at least as much effort sending out "aid workers" and "diplomats" as they did sending out divisions.
They created a whole network of treaties and agreements that served them as well as open military force.

Witness us being isolated diplomatically in the war.We have a chance to steal a march on the Vics here while they're shooting each other; best to exploit it as hard as we can.

-Looking at some of the trade talk here: It's probable that any traffic heading to the Commonwealth is going to disembark at the huge port facilities of New York-Newark port, and then smaller cargo ships will do the run from FCNY to Chicago. Makes sense to use a nearby shipping hub as an intermediate destination, and then unload at NY warehouses, and tranship to smaller cargo ships heading through the Seaway.

And it would be entirely up FCNY's alley to get some leverage that way.

-Securing Blue Mountain Farmers territory allows for alternative merchant traffic to get to Toronto without passing through the Welland Canal. Traffic that doesn't have to pay Victorian canal rates or suffer Vic cargo inspections. It's just a little over a hundred kilometers to Toronto overland, and a Commonwealth security guarantee on one end, and Toronto on the other end would make the area more or less tenable for trade and cultural links.

Which would help rebuild a Canadian power to deter casual Victorian resource-looting.

-MSR and Traverse City are both dictatorships.
We brokered peace between Detroit and Toledo; Id like to try the same here.
You won't succeed without trying.

As for pure pragmatism? MSR is in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Second largest city in Michigan. Traverse City is also accessible by land.
Neither of them is far enough away that we can't reach out and touch them, and neither of them can really afford the blowback from their neighbors from interfering with trade just when


VOTE
[X][FEUD] Pitch a Hail Mary and see if they'll listen to you if you try to mediate their disputes. Prompts a roll, DC 43.
[X][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.
[X][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.
[X][MEDIATE] Oh, but it is. You have no immediate interest in Minnesota but whatever's going on between Bemidji and Manitoulin intrigues you, and you very much do have a medium-term interest in resolving this conflict to your west before it becomes your problem, later. You will have the option to organize this mediation.


Even failure is success here. Visible attempts at diplomacy instead of force or just coercion
We destroyed Victoria's network of military alliances and diplomatic agreements; now we need to build our own.
 
[X][FEUD] Pitch a Hail Mary and see if they'll listen to you if you try to mediate their disputes. Prompts a roll, DC 43.

[X][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.

[X][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.

[X][MEDIATE] Oh, but it is. You have no immediate interest in Minnesota but whatever's going on between Bemidji and Manitoulin intrigues you, and you very much do have a medium-term interest in resolving this conflict to your west before it becomes your problem, later. You will have the option to organize this mediation.
 
- Between a dictatorship and a communist dictatorship, I'm taking the reds. Michigan Soviet Republic. Maybe we'll get an excuse to knock over the tinpot dictator in Traverse City while we're at it.
Gonna be honest, Im not seeing why a communist dictatorship is supposed to be better than the other brand of dictator.
Especially when the person who wrote up that faction characterized it as, and I quote:
The MSR follows a flavor of communism that- while its precise arguments and justifications are different- is essentially identical to Stalinism in its practice. There are probably people in the MSR who are genuine Communists and true believers, but their government is run by a largely self-interested dictator with a history of quiet co-operation with Victoria (though to be fair everyone on the Great Lakes has co-operated with Victoria at least a little out of self-preservation). So integrating them into the Commonwealth could bring a bunch of additional Communist voters, or it could bring a bunch of people disillusioned with Communism because their experience with it has been so negative.

That was my thinking when I created the faction anyways, the QM may go in a different direction.
Communism doesn't necessarily convey any particular amount of virtue on a dictator, any more than religion does.
 
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Communism doesn't necessarily convey any particular amount of virtue on
the fact that it is stalinism in practice though is enough to make me hate it more than the normal tinpot dictators.

regardless i do not care for either dictator so perhaps that hail mary might be enough to weaken both diplomatically for our future plans. As such my vote goes to.

[X][FEUD] Pitch a Hail Mary and see if they'll listen to you if you try to mediate their disputes. Prompts a roll, DC 43.

this is due to the fact that we could use what we just pulled as evidence that we could be an effective mediator for disputes

[X][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.

I may not like communism but I can at least talk like reasonable people with them and I hate victoria and having more allies makes things a bit better overall.

[X][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.

I think we can all agree Screw the Shawnee Kingdom

[X][MEDIATE] Oh, but it is. You have no immediate interest in Minnesota but whatever's going on between Bemidji and Manitoulin intrigues you, and you very much do have a medium-term interest in resolving this conflict to your west before it becomes your problem, later. You will have the option to organize this mediation.

Peace on our borders means we can better secure a route to the Missisipi without having to worry too much about a knife in the back.
 
Actually worth considering:

1)Minnesota(Bemidji) is the govt remnant. Armstrong Clique is a warlord state. Manitoulin is a First Nations confederation.
Superior-Duluth is a Victorian-influenced direct democracy. There doesn't seem at first glance to be much commonality there; they aren't geographically contiguous, nor are they ideologically or (obviously)tribally linked.

One wonders what brought them together.

2)The fact that Superior-Duluth is supporting both sides here points at significant internal factionalism though.
Best be proactive about this before it blows up and we have to clean it up.

EDIT
Hey, what happened to the dice roll button?
Can't find it anymore.

EDIT2
Found it
uju32 threw 5 100-faced dice. Reason: Busybody Total: 388
87 87 91 91 63 63 85 85 62 62
 
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Gonna be honest, Im not seeing why a communist dictatorship is supposed to be better than the other brand of dictator.
Especially when the person who wrote up that faction characterized it as, and I quote:

Communism doesn't necessarily convey any particular amount of virtue on a dictator, any more than religion does.

Yes. These are the "homosexuality is bourgeosie degeneracy", "counter-revolutionary propaganda will not be tolerated", and "death to Kulaks" sort of communism.

Not that Kavion Simpson is great- he's a generic warlord- but the MSR can't claim any moral high ground.

At least that was the idea.
 
[X][FEUD] Pitch a Hail Mary and see if they'll listen to you if you try to mediate their disputes. Prompts a roll, DC 43.

[X][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.

[X][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.

[X][MEDIATE] Oh, but it is. You have no immediate interest in Minnesota but whatever's going on between Bemidji and Manitoulin intrigues you, and you very much do have a medium-term interest in resolving this conflict to your west before it becomes your problem, later. You will have the option to organize this mediation.
 
[X][FEUD] Pitch a Hail Mary and see if they'll listen to you if you try to mediate their disputes. Prompts a roll, DC 43.

[X][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.

[X][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.

[X][MEDIATE] Oh, but it is. You have no immediate interest in Minnesota but whatever's going on between Bemidji and Manitoulin intrigues you, and you very much do have a medium-term interest in resolving this conflict to your west before it becomes your problem, later. You will have the option to organize this mediation.
 
[X][FEUD] Pitch a Hail Mary and see if they'll listen to you if you try to mediate their disputes. Prompts a roll, DC 43.
[X][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.
[X][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.
[X][MEDIATE] If it's not, it's not. You have no interest in intervening. Let them sort it out like adults.
 
[X][FEUD] Pitch a Hail Mary and see if they'll listen to you if you try to mediate their disputes. Prompts a roll, DC 43.

[X][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.

[X][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.

[X][MEDIATE] Oh, but it is. You have no immediate interest in Minnesota but whatever's going on between Bemidji and Manitoulin intrigues you, and you very much do have a medium-term interest in resolving this conflict to your west before it becomes your problem, later. You will have the option to organize this mediation.
 
[X][FEUD] Pitch a Hail Mary and see if they'll listen to you if you try to mediate their disputes. Prompts a roll, DC 43.

[X][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.

[X][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.

[X][MEDIATE] Oh, but it is. You have no immediate interest in Minnesota but whatever's going on between Bemidji and Manitoulin intrigues you, and you very much do have a medium-term interest in resolving this conflict to your west before it becomes your problem, later. You will have the option to organize this mediation.
 
[X][FEUD] Pitch a Hail Mary and see if they'll listen to you if you try to mediate their disputes. Prompts a roll, DC 43.
[X][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.
[X][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.
[X][MEDIATE] Oh, but it is. You have no immediate interest in Minnesota but whatever's going on between Bemidji and Manitoulin intrigues you, and you very much do have a medium-term interest in resolving this conflict to your west before it becomes your problem, later. You will have the option to organize this mediation.
 
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Considering USSR's history, I am rather inclined to oppose anything described as "stalinist" on principle even more so than any "generic warlords" - at least the latter don't have the ideological levers to help spread their particular brand of oppression. If absolutely necessary, I'd take my chances allying with Traverse City instead of the other way around (though ideally we'd ally with neither and dismantle both, but obviously we may or may not have the luxury/public support for that anytime soon)
 
Personally I don't think we are strong enough yet to really deal with guarantee independence I also really don't want to get dragged into a war against whatever Vic faction wins.
 
[X][FEUD] Pitch a Hail Mary and see if they'll listen to you if you try to mediate their disputes. Prompts a roll, DC 43.

[X][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.

[X][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.

[X][MEDIATE] Oh, but it is. You have no immediate interest in Minnesota but whatever's going on between Bemidji and Manitoulin intrigues you, and you very much do have a medium-term interest in resolving this conflict to your west before it becomes your problem, later. You will have the option to organize this mediation.
 
Personally I don't think we are strong enough yet to really deal with guarantee independence I also really don't want to get dragged into a war against whatever Vic faction wins.
1) Look at Google Maps for Sandusky's location.
Its almost directly opposite Leamington, on the southern shores of Lake Erie. Sixty miles by road from Toledo. It's very much in our front yard, unlike somewhere like Cobourg or Toronto.

Anything that comes that far by land, past Cleveland, is very much going to involve us whether or not we like it.

2)Pulling Sandusky into an alliance helps give us an early warning and defense perimeter for Toledo.

3) Look up the details of the Johnson Doctrine, which we declared as part of the peace treaty.
We pre-committed to being dragged into a war whenever Victoria violates the Midwest.

Dunno if you ever played RTSes in their heyday, or strategy games today.
But you don't grow strong by turtling and ignoring your neighbors.
Every little ally brings it's own contribution.
 
We must support our comrades in Michigan against the reactionaries in Traverse City! (I don't trust the dice here in any case.)

[X][FEUD] Ally with the MSR. Traverse City will cancel your basing rights. In the event of the feud going hot, Traverse City will be well-placed to interdict the Straits of Mackinac.

[X][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.

[X][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.

[X][MEDIATE] Oh, but it is. You have no immediate interest in Minnesota but whatever's going on between Bemidji and Manitoulin intrigues you, and you very much do have a medium-term interest in resolving this conflict to your west before it becomes your problem, later. You will have the option to organize this mediation.
 
1) Look at Google Maps for Sandusky's location.
Its almost directly opposite Leamington, on the southern shores of Lake Erie. Sixty miles by road from Toledo. It's very much in our front yard, unlike somewhere like Cobourg or Toronto.

Anything that comes that far by land, past Cleveland, is very much going to involve us whether or not we like it.

Ok fair it gives us a trip wire assuming we can get them to allow us to set up some border outpost to watch the Vics.

2)Pulling Sandusky into an alliance helps give us an early warning and defense perimeter for Toledo.

As long as they are willing to play ball that is though since they asked I'd assume so do we have any background on these guys about which flavour of communist they are.

3) Look up the details of the Johnson Doctrine, which we declared as part of the peace treaty.
We pre-committed to being dragged into a war whenever Victoria violates the Midwest.

Dunno if you ever played RTSes in their heyday, or strategy games today.
But you don't grow strong by turtling and ignoring your neighbors.
Every little ally brings it's own contribution.

Played plenty of RTS games I just like to choose when, where and how I start my war though if I can and usually with a stupidly stacked deck through any means possible. Besides that it is a little ally it is debatable how much they could contribute to the war however you have convinced me to change my vote.
 
[X][FEUD] Pitch a Hail Mary and see if they'll listen to you if you try to mediate their disputes. Prompts a roll, DC 43.

[X][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.

[X][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.

[X][MEDIATE] Oh, but it is. You have no immediate interest in Minnesota but whatever's going on between Bemidji and Manitoulin intrigues you, and you very much do have a medium-term interest in resolving this conflict to your west before it becomes your problem, later. You will have the option to organize this mediation.
 
[X][FEUD] Pitch a Hail Mary and see if they'll listen to you if you try to mediate their disputes. Prompts a roll, DC 43.

[X][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.

[X][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.

[X][MEDIATE] Oh, but it is. You have no immediate interest in Minnesota but whatever's going on between Bemidji and Manitoulin intrigues you, and you very much do have a medium-term interest in resolving this conflict to your west before it becomes your problem, later. You will have the option to organize this mediation.
 
[X][FEUD] Pitch a Hail Mary and see if they'll listen to you if you try to mediate their disputes. Prompts a roll, DC 43.
[X][COMMIES] Guarantee the Commune's independence. Another friendly power on Lake Erie is hardly a bad thing to have.
[X][RIVER] Agree to the alliance. The Kingdom isn't a large problem, but it could definitely cause issues for your plans for the Mississippi. You're happy to limit their opportunities for expansion.
[X][MEDIATE] Oh, but it is. You have no immediate interest in Minnesota but whatever's going on between Bemidji and Manitoulin intrigues you, and you very much do have a medium-term interest in resolving this conflict to your west before it becomes your problem, later. You will have the option to organize this mediation.
 
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