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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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[X] (Alternative) Hidden Wind's Breath: C
[X] [TR] South Wind Blows Unerring: C
 
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Adhoc vote count started by EternalObserver on Sep 11, 2020 at 9:03 PM, finished with 53 posts and 26 votes.
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Erebeal said:
[] Four Winds Messengers: C A very interesting utility technique for getting better info on other scouts and the movement of enemy groups. Potentially really interesting, but could also be niche and not actually get used :(
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It does feel to me that as the sect is using Ling Qi as a scout whenever she has a mission, it's very much something that she will be able to use a lot. I'm certain it would have been used in practically every events we had in the quest so far.

[X] Four Winds Messengers: C
[X]Kindred Winds' Communion: C

As for the other ones, I still have to think it more. Kindred does feel like it's less trying to give supra hyper good perception that negates a whole derived stat for an ally, so I might go for that.
 
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Arkeus said:
As for the other ones, I still have to think it more. Kindred does feel like it's less trying to give supra hyper good perception that negates a whole derived stat for an ally, so I might go for that.
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Yeah, the "use other's perception" thing in Hidden Wind's Breath is arguably be pushing the amount of stuff that should be in a single C-rank tech tbh. It's also, while interesting, not wildly important, so I'd be fine if it were removed too.

Kindred though just has design problems, though the fluff is great. The idea around it was apparently trying to make a combo comms/translation tech, but the problem is that it's dependent on connections so the translation only works for your friends, which kinda defeats the purpose. And then if you take that away you just have a tech that's doing the same thing as Hidden Wind, but isn't as focused on doing that well.
 
Erebeal said:
Yeah, the "use other's perception" thing in Hidden Wind's Breath is arguably be pushing the amount of stuff that should be in a single C-rank tech tbh. It's also, while interesting, not wildly important, so I'd be fine if it were removed too.

Kindred though just has design problems, though the fluff is great. The idea around it was apparently trying to make a combo comms/translation tech, but the problem is that it's dependent on connections so the translation only works for your friends, which kinda defeats the purpose. And then if you take that away you just have a tech that's doing the same thing as Hidden Wind, but isn't as focused on doing that well.
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My impression is that where Hidden Wind (alternate) focus on super-perception sharing + very long range comm and tiny translation, Kindred discard the super-perception to instead have better translation, and the bond level scales mainly duration and as a secondary effect distance, while Hiden Wind has bond effect scaling only distance.

If you look at the tech, the bond level doesn't scale the translation effect:
yrsillar said:
[]Kindred Winds' Communion: C
Duration: Long to Persistent
The winds carry meaning across vast distances, so that understanding can be had in peace and even the most distant of friends may share each other's company. The user forms a connection with a willing target within Far range or an ally within Very Far range. The user and target can communicate meaning, concepts and thoughts with accuracy proportional to the understanding of the other party with each other. This effect expresses itself as an increase in Social Perception and Manipulation derived Skills. If the target is an ally, this effect becomes hidden from outside observers, increases in duration and range in proportion to the strength of the Bond between the user and ally. The duration increasing to Scene length at Bond 3 and Persistent at Bond 5, while the range increases in increments of 100m up to a total of 1km at Bond 6.
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It scales on "the understanding of the other party", which is basically saying "you still need to put effort to understand who the person is", not "you need to like the person".

I'm very uncomfortable with a lot of the others translation techs, because they seem to be doing too much "handwave cultural differences in understanding away", while this tech seems to provide for a more realtistic outcome. The comm part imo are also very good, as it provides a scene-length 700m comm that is hidden from outside observers at Bond 3.
 
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Arkeus said:
I'm very uncomfortable with a lot of the others translation techs, because they seem to be doing too much "handwave cultural differences in understanding away", while this tech seems to provide for a more realtistic outcome.
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Well Xeph did put in that footnote for a reason :p
yrsillar said:
*Creator's note: This technique does not eliminate confusion due to usage of cultural metaphors and associated concepts, or loss of nuance or subtlety. The creator of the technique bears no responsibility for mishaps incurred through usage of the technique. Use at your own discretion.
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Erebeal said:
Well Xeph did put in that footnote for a reason :p
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Yeah, but as far as I can tell that's not the majority of the translation tech, though it is apparently the winning one.

The specific tech does have both use and meta issue, though. The use issue is that it's more of a group setter tech. The leader of the group makes sure that everyone can talk to each others, and so on. That's... really not the kind of thing I can see Ling Qi wanting to do at all. The meta issue is that if you can do that with a early green C rank tech, then Cai's army is going to have dozens of people with km wide translation techs that do the same thing, and so the whole urgency for a translation tech completely disappear.

I find the 'one on one' feature of Kindred, and it's more limited effect, much more interesting.
 
Arkeus said:
The specific tech does have both use and meta issue, though. The use issue is that it's more of a group setter tech. The leader of the group makes sure that everyone can talk to each others, and so on. That's... really not the kind of thing I can see Ling Qi wanting to do at all. The meta issue is that if you can do that with a early green C rank tech, then Cai's army is going to have dozens of people with km wide translation techs that do the same thing, and so the whole urgency for a translation tech completely disappear.
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I mean tbh given Liao Zhu had a translation talisman lying around, I was already assuming that the Cai would be able to facilitate that easily.

I was liking LQ doing this more for the character thing of her doing it herself and trying to take the diplomacy seriously.

I do actually agree that we shouldn't need it really.
 
I see there is some confusion as to the mechanics behind Kindred Winds' Communion's translation effect.
The user and target can communicate meaning, concepts and thoughts with accuracy proportional to the understanding of the other party with each other.
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My intent with this phrasing is that you can only communicate things the other person understands, say if the other person has a high understanding of Music, then you can communicate information about Music very clearly with them; if, however, they have a poor understanding of Music, then you can communicate only a very fuzzy version of your intent.
Another example: Trying to communicate a tri-colour (human vision) image to someone who only sees in di-colour (dog and cat vision) is going to end up poorly. While that same image would arrive fairly intact with another human(that isn't colour blind)​.
:Ü™
 
[] Four Winds Messengers: C
Duration: Short
The wind knows itself even when blowing at cross-purposes, and so the herald of one of the great winds might recognize the task of an opposing peer. The user observes a target within Close range and attempts to determine roughly the direction and distance of others the target is acting as a scout or messenger for. Attempt is contested by Poise and Stealth. Information gained is limited to the target's understanding. The target must be observed without interruption for the full duration of the technique.
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*Ahem*

I feel like I should shill this at least once. So. In general, it's so obvious in its magnificence that there's no need to dwell. However, there is a more subtle aspect to it that could be overlooked and might just warrant elaboration.

The quiet theme to this technique fundamentally rests on an attitude of likeness between the user and the target. The user recognizes the target as a fellow "wind messenger", and is in part leveraging the Connection of their shared purpose as a medium for the tech to work through. It's hidden in metaphor, but there's a necessary conception of the other person as similar to Ling Qi.

A big reason I went with something that targets scouts and messengers wasn't just the strategic value, which I think is significant, but because those are roles that are familiar to Ling Qi's own experience in acting as an appendage for an organization. Ling Qi has been doing a lot of thinking about what makes a person a person and where the boundaries are. Struggling out from under the inertia of the non-inclusive society she's grown up in is a real challenge. When Ling Qi runs into isolated Cloud Nomad or Shishigui scouts, and history suggests this isn't an unlikely occurrence, this technique would be little weight on the scales in favor of seeing the whole of their role, purpose, and person. Recognizing the similarity between her role in her society and another's role in their society helps her recognize the other society as, well, a society at all. It's basically a domino effect.

It also plays into Ling Qi's forming Lunar Way. When she runs into an isolated Other, her path is not to destroy(necessarily). Her first instinct should be to learn, to grow through exposure to new tales and experiences. Wield her empathy as a blade and carve truth into her own self with each probing incision of inquiry into theirs. Metaphors!
 
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Perception:
[X] Winter's Last Breath (revised): C
[X] Four Winds Messengers: C
[X] Four Winds Convergence: C
Comms:
[X]Hidden Wind's Breath: C
[X] (Alternative) Hidden Wind's Breath: C
[X]Kindred Winds' Communion: C
Buff/Debuff:
[X](Revised) Winds of Winter Yearning: C
[X]Warning Wind: C

Listed in descending order of preference (inside each category).
Uncategorized order:
HWB > (A)HWB > WLB(r) > (R)WWY > KWC > FWM > FWC > WW
:Ü™
 
Random mechanic design thoughts:
  • The D-rank repeat on Winter's Last Breath is waaayyyyyy excessive and not the kind of thing we want floating around as a stealth user. The tech is functionally a C-rank perfect perception tech, and should be treated as such.
  • As mentioned earlier, the "use each other's perception" in Hidden Wind's Breath is perhaps excessive given how much it already has and our lack of heart meridians. It's not important anyway, and could easily be dropped.
  • Kindred could honestly stand to scale better with bond. +100m/SL really isn't much - it could at least double it. With the kind of range cultivators operate over you need it.
  • As a more general note, I feel that we should really be avoiding techniques that are just "buff the thing you're already doing". They were basically the things that we stacked to get dice last year, but with the removal of such gameplay mechanics that purpose is gone. Narratively they just lack presence, and are basically invisible. Techniques should all be individually distinct. If one is layering things, then you want the art to be designed around that clear build up. Things like Summer's Cheerful Laughter or Day of Celebration which are basically "make Canto slightly stronger" don't really have a clear reason to exist as distinct techniques once we abandon the old dice stacking gameplay paradigm. You might as well just make Canto stronger directly - it's not as if C qi use is noticable in story.
 
Erebeal said:
Kindred could honestly stand to scale better with bond. +100m/SL really isn't much - it could at least double it. With the kind of range cultivators operate over you need it.
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The 100m was Yrs idea. I put it at X00m because of concerns about Yrs not liking long range techs. My original idea was higher that that, so the concern was warranted :Ü™
Erebeal said:
The D-rank repeat on Winter's Last Breath is waaayyyyyy excessive and not the kind of thing we want floating around as a stealth user. The tech is functionally a C-rank perfect perception tech, and should be treated as such.
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I also liked the original WLB better but others kept heckling Lena about WLB being "boring" :Ü™
 
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[X] (Alternative) Hidden Wind's Breath: C
[X] [TR] South Wind Blows Unerring: C

Boop.
 
Darker said:
I see there is some confusion as to the mechanics behind Kindred Winds' Communion's translation effect.

My intent with this phrasing is that you can only communicate things the other person understands, say if the other person has a high understanding of Music, then you can communicate information about Music very clearly with them; if, however, they have a poor understanding of Music, then you can communicate only a very fuzzy version of your intent.
Another example: Trying to communicate a tri-colour (human vision) image to someone who only sees in di-colour (dog and cat vision) is going to end up poorly. While that same image would arrive fairly intact with another human(that isn't colour blind)​.
:Ü™
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well, there is a reason why for example I see Kindred as a pure Comm-tech instead of a translation tech.

First up, the intent behind getting a translation tech at all was, because it seemed useful for the upcoming diplomacy/talk with the ice witches, afterall we dont know their language and they dont know ours. This means that we are probably talking to complete strangers from a different culture with different values and worldviews. The purpose of a translation tech is then to help us communicate with them, so we can learn more of them and they of us.

Now regarding Kindred, it really reads as if 'understanding with each other' refers to SL, which is a great flavour for the tech but it is really inconvenient for talking to total strangers like the ice witches. Even if instead scales on mutual understanding of the topic they talk about, it is still inconvenient, because we dont really know each others understanding, values and culture yet. So since either way Kindred would only work with a reduced effect as a translation tech in the main situation we want a translation tech for, it I have difficulties seeing it as a translation tech.

However, I really like the name of the tech, the flavour of the tech growing with SL and it is a pretty decent Comm tech in my opinion. So in my opinion it makes perfect sense to have it compete as a comm tech, because that seems to be the by far better part of it. And if it wins as a comm tech, then we can and in my opinion should still have an actual translation tech for the other winning tech
 
naths said:
So in my opinion it makes perfect sense to have it compete as a comm tech, because that seems to be the by far better part of it. And if it wins as a comm tech, then we can and in my opinion should still have an actual translation tech for the other winning tech
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Well, it was intended as a Comms tech with a fairly decent translation effect built in :Ü™
 
Erebeal said:
As mentioned earlier, the "use each other's perception" in Hidden Wind's Breath is perhaps excessive given how much it already has and our lack of heart meridians. It's not important anyway, and could easily be dropped.
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This I'll disagree with, sense share has amazing narrative potential with how different cultivators perceive the world. Stepping into each other's shoes as it were allows for some of the stronger expressions of empathy and mutual understanding, even if it's a step below an outright mind meld like we did with Sixiang.
 
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