Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
[X] [LIBRARY] Dark Lands: Extensive + Esoteric Imperial (200gc), Marauder Tribes: Extensive Imperial + Extensive Dwarven (200gc), Karaz Ankor: Esoteric Dwarven (150gc, 4DF), Enchanting: Esoteric Imperial (50gc, 2CF)
[X] [DWARF] Runesmith briefing on Karag Dum (2 gallons AV)
[X] [COLLEGE] Aqshy item emulating Dragon Breath (20 Favor).
[X] [PURCHASE] Commission a painting of the duckling club together from an artist.
You know if we do end up going dragon's breath it will be yet another case of Mathilde seeking out dragon-themed solutions to her problems.
  1. Chair
  2. Altar
  3. Staff
  4. Wand
  5. ??? ;)

5. Transport
Halflings, they are very good at gathering rumors and general skulduggery, mostly by looking innocent. The halfling mafia is no joke, though I don't think we have many of that lot around.
No one ever does, until they get cupcaked.
 
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Mm. It's a little more complicated than that. Accounts vary from book to book, but so far as I can tell, it roughly goes: Druchii attack Dwarf caravans, dressed as Asur --> High King Gotrek Starbreaker sends an envoy to Ulthuan --> Said envoy demands weregild from the Phoenix Throne --> Caledor II is an arrogant ask, and tells the envoy people don't get to demand things of him, he answers pleas --> Gotrek sends a reply saying he doesn't make pleas, and doubles the weregild --> beard shaving commences (reason varies by book) --> Dwarfs declare war and attack Tor Alessi.
The dynamics are still pretty much as described. The dwarves thought they had reason to demand recompense or declare a Grudge. The dwarves made this known to the elves. The elves gave an arrogant, dismissive reply. The dwarves gave them a chance to rephrase their dismissive reply, which by the standards of dwarves on the edge of declaring a Grudge is probably the height of generosity and forbearance.

Then the elves did something almost unbelievably offensive, probably literally worse in dwarven eyes than killing the messenger.

And the dwarves are all like "Oh, you better believe that's a Grudgin'."
 
The dynamics are still pretty much as described. The dwarves thought they had reason to demand recompense or declare a Grudge. The dwarves made this known to the elves. The elves gave an arrogant, dismissive reply. The dwarves gave them a chance to rephrase their dismissive reply, which by the standards of dwarves on the edge of declaring a Grudge is probably the height of generosity and forbearance.

Then the elves did something almost unbelievably offensive, probably literally worse in dwarven eyes than killing the messenger.

And the dwarves are all like "Oh, you better believe that's a Grudgin'."
Or, you know, the dwarfs (lead by the High King's own son) torched a city of innocents beforehand and then turned up demanding weregild for their own dead and no retribution for the burned city. That's the most recent version, though I'm not sure if the quest is using that over the older "ambassador drew his weapon on the Phoenix King" take.
 
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The dynamics are still pretty much as described. The dwarves thought they had reason to demand recompense or declare a Grudge. The dwarves made this known to the elves. The elves gave an arrogant, dismissive reply. The dwarves gave them a chance to rephrase their dismissive reply, which by the standards of dwarves on the edge of declaring a Grudge is probably the height of generosity and forbearance.

Then the elves did something almost unbelievably offensive, probably literally worse in dwarven eyes than killing the messenger.

And the dwarves are all like "Oh, you better believe that's a Grudgin'."
Going and demanding someone pay you recompense for something they haven't done, especially a king was never going to end well. Like, it's never said they presented evidence or asked for an investigation, it was just "give me money for these crimes you've committed". Caledor II was an arse, but it wasn't exactly a great way to start negotiations with a peer power.

Personally, I've always attributed some of how it went down to internal politics. The High King had to go immediately ask for recompense because his subordinates were pushing for it, Caledor II had to dismiss it, because the Phoenix King can't be seen to just give in to whatever demands people make of him (although a better king would have taken the Dwarfen ambassador aside for a quiet discussion about this afterwards).

Also, the Dwarfs didn't declare a grudge over the ambassador's shaving. They wanted recompense for the attacks, the beard was the ambassador's problem (although it was seen as an insult, if the Phoenix King had shaven the Dwarf ambassador without everything else, there wouldn't have been a war. There'd have been consequences, but not a war).
 
Honestly given the terrible consequences for the whole world following the War of the Beard/War of Vengeance, including sliding ever closer to falling into hell, I think it is safe to say everyone involved was an idiot. They may have been more or less idiotic, they may have had culturally appropriate reasons for it, but the stupidity was universal.
 
Or, you know, the dwarfs (lead by the High King's own son) torched a city of innocents beforehand and then turned up demanding weregild for their own dead and no retribution for the burned city. That's the most recent version, though I'm not sure if the quest is using that over the older "ambassador drew his weapon on the Phoenix King" take.
OK, slow down, I missed the post mentioning this last time. Suffice to say...

The War Of Vengeance books change things so the ambassador doesn't threaten the Phoenix King, but did make it so the Dwarfs (lead by Snorri, the High King's son) raze an elf city and slaughter the inhabitants before the ambassador reached Ulthuan.

In the first version, I find both sides to be pretty bad (the Ambassador should 100% not have tried to threaten the PK, but the PK should probably have just thrown out the ambassador rather than shave him). In the second and more recent version, the dwarfs are...almost entirely in the wrong after having murdered a city and I can pretty easily see why Caledor thought the Dwarfs were just mocking him with the ambassador demanding recompense for the dead and a cessation of hostilities right after an elf city was torched, and that the War was already on.
Eh, if you accept that version of the narrative, sure... but that sounds like a version of the narrative specifically crafted to make the dwarves the villains of the piece, just as the earlier version makes the elves closer to the villains.

The procedure described for "how dwarves respond to a grudge" would not include sacking an elven city in retaliation before negotiating with the Phoenix King, though it might include sacking a city after the first demand for recompense has been rebuffed as a "we seriously mean business" thing, I don't know.

So I cannot reconcile the process Boney describes for dwarven conflict resolution with the sequence described in the War of Vengeance books... unsurprisingly, because the entire point of the sequence described in those books is to write the dwarves as having no concept of conflict resolution short of war in the first place!

Going and demanding someone pay you recompense for something they haven't done, especially a king was never going to end well. Like, it's never said they presented evidence or asked for an investigation, it was just "give me money for these crimes you've committed". Caledor II was an arse, but it wasn't exactly a great way to start negotiations with a peer power.
I do not dispute that the dwarves were rude.

The point is, there's a difference between "being rude" (especially given cultural differences) and "not making a good faith effort at peaceful conflict resolution." Especially since, as far as the dwarves then knew, the elves were united under the Phoenix King so that any elven raiders were necessarily his subjects.

Personally, I've always attributed some of how it went down to internal politics. The High King had to go immediately ask for recompense because his subordinates were pushing for it, Caledor II had to dismiss it, because the Phoenix King can't be seen to just give in to whatever demands people make of him (although a better king would have taken the Dwarfen ambassador aside for a quiet discussion about this afterwards).

Also, the Dwarfs didn't declare a grudge over the ambassador's shaving. They wanted recompense for the attacks, the beard was the ambassador's problem (although it was seen as an insult, if the Phoenix King had shaven the Dwarf ambassador without everything else, there wouldn't have been a war. There'd have been consequences, but not a war).
What I'm getting at is that shaving the ambassador as part of the general tone of refusal changes the message.

Just saying "no" and sending the ambassador back signals "no, we refuse to repay."

Doing so and shaving the ambassador signals "no, we refuse to pay, we refuse to talk about it, and fuck you."

Honestly given the terrible consequences for the whole world following the War of the Beard/War of Vengeance, including sliding ever closer to falling into hell, I think it is safe to say everyone involved was an idiot. They may have been more or less idiotic, they may have had culturally appropriate reasons for it, but the stupidity was universal.
To be sure. I am mainly describing how, if we subtract any dwarven destruction of cities from the narrative as an event that may or may not have happened... The sequence of events matches the sequence that the dwarves might normally pursue, under Boney's narrative, when seeking to resolve a Grudge peacefully only for talks to break down.
 
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[X] [LIBRARY] Dark Lands: Extensive + Esoteric Imperial (200gc), Marauder Tribes: Extensive Imperial + Extensive Dwarven (200gc), Karaz Ankor: Esoteric Dwarven (150gc, 4DF), Enchanting: Esoteric Imperial (50gc, 2CF)
[X] [DWARF] Runesmith briefing on Karag Dum (2 gallons AV)
[X] [PURCHASE] No purchase.
[X] [COLLEGE] No purchase.
 
- Though only a single date is shown in the text, there would also have had several offscreen dates over the months.
How far did they advance? Did anyone touch the other's hair yet? Has there been any *gasp* handholding?

More seriously, when in the turn did the first date happen, roughly speaking? I know time isn't usually meant to be nailed down too much in this quest, but I'm still curious whether the two of them are now dating for close to six months or if it is more like four.
[X] [PURCHASE] Extensive Elven Romance
[X] [DWARF] Master crafted sickle suitable for harvest or battle. As a gift for Panoramia.
[X] [DWARF] Gold and silver sculpture of Cython reading a tiny book atop Karag Zilfin . As a gift for Cython.
[X] [LIBRARY] Dark Lands: Extensive + Esoteric Imperial (200gc), Marauder Tribes: Extensive Imperial + Extensive Dwarven (200gc), Karaz Ankor: Esoteric Dwarven (150gc, 4DF), Enchanting: Esoteric Imperial (50gc, 2CF)
[X] [DWARF] Runesmith briefing on Karag Dum (2 gallons AV)


Really can't justify buying smut with our stipend.
That vote doesn't work as is. Each [DWARF] option counts as a separate one and only one will win. What you want to do is make all of those things one line, separated by commas, while still voting for then one you consider most important separately.
Junior Apprenticeship is developing control over the ability to touch the Winds. For some people this means learning how to reach out and touch it, for others it's learning how to stop. They usually get a Master when they reach regular Apprentice, that's when they start learning how to actually do things with magic instead of learning how not to be killed by magic. Senior Apprentices have enough control that they can be allowed out of the mono-wind environment of the Colleges. Some of them join their Master on their missions, some of them go adventuring on their own, most just use it to explore Altdorf.
I'm still not a hundred percent sure how the whole Apprenticeship works. They have a Master and supposedly learn their magic based on the Master's paradigm, but said Master often has a day job that takes him all over the Empire or makes them have their base somewhere other than Altdorf, while the Apprentice is locked into a boarding school and also goes to regular classes on How To Wizard.
What exactly is the Master's role here and how do they keep their influence larger than that of the faculty that sees the Apprentice every day? Do they control the curriculum or something?
Also, if the College frequently recruits teens and younger, how does the Grey College handle the more mundane parts of raising children? Who holds a crying child? Who makes sure nothing untoward happens behind closed doors? Is it mostly Wizards and Perpetuals or are non-magical staff also used?
sometimes earthy and almost shameful
I'm curious where that line is for a Nature Wizard that grew up in a Fertility Cult and has probably had midwifing as part of her curriculum as well as maybe cured a venereal disease or two.
and followed up by throwing the most raucous party the Karak had seen in a hundred years?"

"It was the first party worth mentioning in far more than a hundred years in this place,"
Why you dissin' Goblin parties so hard?
Normally, that would be classified information, but I feel like it should be mentioned given the consequences for our last love interest...
You think that Abelheim would have had overall better survival chances without Abelheim's meddling? Who knows who the Ex-Empress would have inserted by his side instead and where that would have lead.
You know, it strikes me that Panoramia might actually be a bit interested in Cython's views on religion. Not enough to throw herself headfirst into the matter like Mathilde did, but they do have that detached view on how Gods and faith 'actually' works that I think might make it easier for Panpan to talk about it.

... And now that I've had that thought, my brain concludes that BoneyM has already done their groundwork in case the thread decides to go for a polyamorous solution.
I'm in.
[X] [COLLEGE] Aqshy item emulating Dragon Breath (20 Favor).
Is Dragon Breath a specific spell? Because in that case the wording might be more limiting than I thought we wanted it to be.
...holy shit, the EIC is shadowing Stirland Riverwarden patrols, armed with Repeaters and marine training, AND they're still taking losses from banditry.

That sounds increasingly like a mercenary army more than piracy.
Riverine pirates aren't really caught by river patrols if the patrols actually look like patrols. They wait in a place where they can hide, have a lookout up and downriver and skedaddle when one of the big armed boats is coming from one of the two utterly predictable directions. At best the patrol finds the ropes, chains and other obstructions, swarms out to find an abandoned camp, marks the spot as likely for pirate activity and alerts the Roadwardens to scout the area more subtly in the coming weeks.
Sounds like they'd have a big case of stir crazy by the time they can leave safely.
I assume that the campus is large enough and includes outside areas. Or that Warhammer humans are Dwarven enough to stay (mentally) healthy without sunlight or something. I already started wondering about this when I thought about Karag Nar living conditions. Does your average skilled tradesman in Karag Nar even see the sky on a daily basis?
 
I think Age of Vengeance books make it clear that there were decades of high tensions and minor conflicts between elves and dwarves before the war began. In the end, there was a lot of people who wanted to duke it out and finally decide who gets to rule the continent and not a lot of people interested in preserving peace. Malekith and his raiding intensified the problem, but it didn't create it.
 
You really don't need to give this running commentary of your disapproval.
While it's not the nicest way he could have gone about expressing his opinion, I'd say it was a polite enough way of expressing it that it didn't warrant chastisement/being called out.

In this post He:
  • Didn't insult Panoramia.
  • Didn't insult the people that voted for her, nor their desire to see scenes such as this.
  • Didn't belittle the writing or author.

He just:
  • Expressed the fact that he didn't like the interaction, which he has every right to do. Just as everyone who gushed about it had the right to do so.
  • Stated his intent to skip this type of content in the future. Which while potentially rude, is both a valid way to handle content one doesn't like, and may be an sentiment the QM want's to keep an eye on. As BoneyM has explicitly shown himself to be the sort that keeps a close eye on the pulse of the thread, something hard to do when certain blocks refuse to express their opinion.
  • And Finally, expressed his hope that the Romance portion of this quest, will stay separated enough that he can ignore it, like how one can skip the Research portions of the quest if one is so inclined.

And finally (I might be wrong here)(I'm not) I don't recall him talking about this subject since the vote on it? And well, if there is ever a time to have negative commentary on something, the vote for it, and during the resolution of it, seems like the appropriate places to talk about it?

Like if he's been shitting up the thread after every update, (Which once again I don't recall him doing so, and I read about 80-90% of the discussion in this thread) then consider this post withdrawn. (I Actually just went through his posting history and he hasn't talked about this subject since the vote, until this one comment)

But I'm not (Unless my thread searching really missed something), so my defense of his post stands, and I'll even chime in by saying that I too, was not a fan of the date (despite the fact that it was well written). And that I too, hope that this might stay separated enough (I do expect some degree of bleed-through obviously), that I, and anyone else who may be against Romance in general, or just with this character, may be able to skip it like anyone could skip AV if they were so inclined.
 
[X] [DWARF] Runesmith briefing on Karag Dum (2 gallons AV)

Books don't have competition and I'm still waiting on an answer as to how specific "Dragon Breath" is before voting on it.
 
[X] [LIBRARY] Dark Lands: Extensive + Esoteric Imperial (200gc), Marauder Tribes: Extensive Imperial + Extensive Dwarven (200gc), Karaz Ankor: Esoteric Dwarven (150gc, 4DF), Enchanting: Esoteric Imperial (50gc, 2CF)
[X] [DWARF] Runesmith briefing on Karag Dum (2 gallons AV)
[X] [PURCHASE] No purchase.
 
But if a practically minded and adventurous Jade from another province feels the same then it's probably a good indication of wider attitudes. (P.S.: I know that there might be a Doylist reason as well, but this is still canon now, with canon implications).
I kind of assumed that Panaromia would have happily gone in naked, but saw Mathilde's reaction and decided to go easy on her.
 
OK, slow down, I missed the post mentioning this last time. Suffice to say...

Eh, if you accept that version of the narrative, sure... but that sounds like a version of the narrative specifically crafted to make the dwarves the villains of the piece, just as the earlier version makes the elves closer to the villains.

The procedure described for "how dwarves respond to a grudge" would not include sacking an elven city in retaliation before negotiating with the Phoenix King, though it might include sacking a city after the first demand for recompense has been rebuffed as a "we seriously mean business" thing, I don't know.

So I cannot reconcile the process Boney describes for dwarven conflict resolution with the sequence described in the War of Vengeance books... unsurprisingly, because the entire point of the sequence described in those books is to write the dwarves as having no concept of conflict resolution short of war in the first place!

I do not dispute that the dwarves were rude.

The point is, there's a difference between "being rude" (especially given cultural differences) and "not making a good faith effort at peaceful conflict resolution." Especially since, as far as the dwarves then knew, the elves were united under the Phoenix King so that any elven raiders were necessarily his subjects.

What I'm getting at is that shaving the ambassador as part of the general tone of refusal changes the message.

Just saying "no" and sending the ambassador back signals "no, we refuse to repay."

Doing so and shaving the ambassador signals "no, we refuse to pay, we refuse to talk about it, and fuck you."

To be sure. I am mainly describing how, if we subtract any dwarven destruction of cities from the narrative as an event that may or may not have happened... The sequence of events matches the sequence that the dwarves might normally pursue, under Boney's narrative, when seeking to resolve a Grudge peacefully only for talks to break down.
Deciphering it, it looks likely to be more like:
-Druchii false flag attack Karaz Ankor caravans.
-Karaz Ankor sends envoy to seek recompense.
-While the envoy is en route, more attacks happen, and this time the attackers 'retreat' to some elven colonies, possibly claiming the dwarves have gone mad.
-Dwarves burn colonies in hot pursuit, which is different from the Grudge process because when you chase an enemy into their stronghold you don't just back off and send a strongly worded letter.
-Ambassador arrives, AFTER word of burned cities reach the court of Ulthuan
-Phoenix King takes all this as if the dwarves were mocking him, possibly having not internalized that elven emergency communications could be vastly faster than dwarf due to magic. Summarily dismisses all claims
-Ambassador emphasizes his point in a way which directly triggers royal pride.
-Ambassador is shaved.
-Dwarves flip out.

Remember, there is a malicious actor who is intimately familiar with Caledorian thought processes, Ulthuan court politics and dwarf reactions.

Is Dragon Breath a specific spell? Because in that case the wording might be more limiting than I thought we wanted it to be.
Both a spell and a description, but we don't need to worry, Boney has confirmed that the Bright College has enough practice with this sort of thing to produce a suitable 20 CF output within any reasonable description.
Riverine pirates aren't really caught by river patrols if the patrols actually look like patrols. They wait in a place where they can hide, have a lookout up and downriver and skedaddle when one of the big armed boats is coming from one of the two utterly predictable directions. At best the patrol finds the ropes, chains and other obstructions, swarms out to find an abandoned camp, marks the spot as likely for pirate activity and alerts the Roadwardens to scout the area more subtly in the coming weeks.
As in, the EIC shipments follow closely to the river patrols and they're still taking losses.
 
[X] [LIBRARY] Dark Lands: Extensive + Esoteric Imperial (200gc), Marauder Tribes: Extensive Imperial + Extensive Dwarven (200gc), Karaz Ankor: Esoteric Dwarven (150gc, 4DF), Enchanting: Esoteric Imperial (50gc, 2CF)
[X] [DWARF] Runesmith briefing on Karag Dum (2 gallons AV)
[X] [COLLEGE] Item of Light's Demand: 5 Favor
 
[X] [PURCHASE] Commission a painting of the duckling club together from an artist.


A bit morbid, but there is a real chance that not everyone is coming back. (It's the wastes after all)
 
Shaving a dwarf's beard is quite literally the closest thing to a war crime that the dwarfs have.
 
[X] [LIBRARY] Dark Lands: Extensive + Esoteric Imperial (200gc), Marauder Tribes: Extensive Imperial + Extensive Dwarven (200gc), Karaz Ankor: Esoteric Dwarven (150gc, 4DF), Enchanting: Esoteric Imperial (50gc, 2CF)
[X] [PURCHASE] No purchase.
[X] [COLLEGE] Item of Light's Demand: 5 Favor
[X] [COLLEGE] No purchase.
 
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