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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Duesal said:
competent and dedicated minions.
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Doesn't always mean most pleasant to interact with for most people.

I mean they're mostly alright for Viserys because they respect him too much to comment on some of his eccentricities, like giving a rat's ass about the opinions of mortals.

And we like them because they are lovely contrast to all of the incompetent people we sometimes have to deal with, to the point we decided having dozens of people who aren't just trying to get the job done right, but get the job done right.
 
It's nice to see some believable and understandable animosity among our underlings. So far we've seen an entire Empire with almost no infighting below us beyond the economic rivalries between cities, which is sometimes jarring.

[X] Viserys
 
DragonParadox said:
She managed to create a maintain and empire with herself at the top for literally longer than Tuin can guess at.
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Evil cannot comprehend Good seems to be dead set against the established lore of the quest, yet still manages to crop up in quite a few places, especially when it can't be explained down to a "simple difference in opinion".

Tuin lacks the perspective necessary to claim Lolth ruled an "uncontested, unbroken, united" Empire for thousands of years, and claiming at such is the boring "lol that's what the D&D writers said happened". Lolth had to course correct constantly, she's insane enough to think it balances out, that's fine... but also stupid as hell. Her empire falling apart long-term because of magic failing makes sense but it should have been flailing every few centuries, and quite possibly completely splintered enough times that the only reason Tuin and Morwyn know nothing is because she's damn good at eradicating records that so much as hint that she's capable of incompetence.

Her Chaotic Evil racket is idiotic and unsustainable, even the Drow weren't originally an engineered Outsider race who have the excuse of "they're naturally evil and chaotic", in CANON.

It's culturally engineered, and culture wants to evolve. When you try to stagnate it, and then outside factors interfere with your forced status quo, it can often delete everything you built up. A God can afford to rebuild over and over and over, sure, but that doesn't really give her the excuse to claim to be smart because she keeps crawling back out of her hole of failure.

What if we make a better, smarter, more well-managed divine network? And things are generally pleasant for most people that live in our empire and its competent enough to manage crises and expect the unexpected? And the people living within the confines of this framework are generally invested to help it keep going, rather than pour fuel on the fire like the Drow did?

I needn't go on.
 
Crake said:
Evil cannot comprehend Good seems to be dead set against the established lore of the quest, yet still manages to crop up in quite a few places, especially when it can't be explained down to a "simple difference in opinion".

Tuin lacks the perspective necessary to claim Lolth ruled an "uncontested, unbroken, united" Empire for thousands of years, and claiming at such is the boring "lol that's what the D&D writers said happened". Lolth had to course correct constantly, she's insane enough to think it balances out, that's fine... but also stupid as hell. Her empire falling apart long-term because of magic failing makes sense but it should have been flailing every few centuries, and quite possibly completely splintered enough times that the only reason Tuin and Morwyn know nothing is because she's damn good at eradicating records that so much as hint that she's capable of incompetence.

Her Chaotic Evil racket is idiotic and unsustainable, even the Drow weren't originally an engineered Outsider race who have the excuse of "they're naturally evil and chaotic", in CANON.

It's culturally engineered, and culture wants to evolve. When you try to stagnate it, and then outside factors interfere with your forced status quo, it can often delete everything you built up. A God can afford to rebuild over and over and over, sure, but that doesn't really give her the excuse to claim to be smart because she keeps crawling back out of her hole of failure.

What if we make a better, smarter, more well-managed divine network? And things are generally pleasant for most people that live in our empire and its competent enough to manage crises and expect the unexpected? And the people living within the confines of this framework are generally invested to help it keep going, rather than pour fuel on the fire like the Drow did?

I needn't go on.
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In fairness I really hope @DragonParadox doesn't try to change Lolth's characterization here. I don't want a smarter less insane Lolth, thank you. Disunited Drow constantly stymied by infighting who we can fight off more easily would be a blessing compared to a genuinely united empire in the Underdark.
 
The lore makes no sense as it stood without Elves having existed at least some point, anyway.

I doubt it's all hunky-dory down there, but the Drow are generally more experienced and have higher level averages due to longer life spans and a highly competitive social environment, and a highly deadly natural environment.

They're held back much like the Skaven are, by ambitious rivals and lack of trust. Removal of Lolth might have actually made them more deadly since she left, and she is probably struggling with the concept that they are better off without her. And pissed. Really pissed.
 
Crake said:
Evil cannot comprehend Good seems to be dead set against the established lore of the quest, yet still manages to crop up in quite a few places, especially when it can't be explained down to a "simple difference in opinion".

Tuin lacks the perspective necessary to claim Lolth ruled an "uncontested, unbroken, united" Empire for thousands of years, and claiming at such is the boring "lol that's what the D&D writers said happened". Lolth had to course correct constantly, she's insane enough to think it balances out, that's fine... but also stupid as hell. Her empire falling apart long-term because of magic failing makes sense but it should have been flailing every few centuries, and quite possibly completely splintered enough times that the only reason Tuin and Morwyn know nothing is because she's damn good at eradicating records that so much as hint that she's capable of incompetence.

Her Chaotic Evil racket is idiotic and unsustainable, even the Drow weren't originally an engineered Outsider race who have the excuse of "they're naturally evil and chaotic", in CANON.

It's culturally engineered, and culture wants to evolve. When you try to stagnate it, and then outside factors interfere with your forced status quo, it can often delete everything you built up. A God can afford to rebuild over and over and over, sure, but that doesn't really give her the excuse to claim to be smart because she keeps crawling back out of her hole of failure.

What if we make a better, smarter, more well-managed divine network? And things are generally pleasant for most people that live in our empire and its competent enough to manage crises and expect the unexpected? And the people living within the confines of this framework are generally invested to help it keep going, rather than pour fuel on the fire like the Drow did?

I needn't go on.
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Those are all far points but Tuin's not a philosopher nor was he ever any kind of ruler he is not going to go looking for those answers, they are just going to seep into his consciousness long term. What he decides from there I'll see when the story reaches that point.
 
Crake said:
Evil cannot comprehend Good seems to be dead set against the established lore of the quest, yet still manages to crop up in quite a few places, especially when it can't be explained down to a "simple difference in opinion".

Tuin lacks the perspective necessary to claim Lolth ruled an "uncontested, unbroken, united" Empire for thousands of years, and claiming at such is the boring "lol that's what the D&D writers said happened". Lolth had to course correct constantly, she's insane enough to think it balances out, that's fine... but also stupid as hell. Her empire falling apart long-term because of magic failing makes sense but it should have been flailing every few centuries, and quite possibly completely splintered enough times that the only reason Tuin and Morwyn know nothing is because she's damn good at eradicating records that so much as hint that she's capable of incompetence.

Her Chaotic Evil racket is idiotic and unsustainable, even the Drow weren't originally an engineered Outsider race who have the excuse of "they're naturally evil and chaotic", in CANON.

It's culturally engineered, and culture wants to evolve. When you try to stagnate it, and then outside factors interfere with your forced status quo, it can often delete everything you built up. A God can afford to rebuild over and over and over, sure, but that doesn't really give her the excuse to claim to be smart because she keeps crawling back out of her hole of failure.

What if we make a better, smarter, more well-managed divine network? And things are generally pleasant for most people that live in our empire and its competent enough to manage crises and expect the unexpected? And the people living within the confines of this framework are generally invested to help it keep going, rather than pour fuel on the fire like the Drow did?

I needn't go on.
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To be fair to the D&D writers, they fully acknowledge that the Drow system and culture is horribly unstable.
Do you know the War of the Spider Queen series?
A few months of Loth's absence (no answering prayers or sending outsiders) nearly leads to a total collapse and no Drow is the least bit surprised about that consequence.
 
DragonParadox said:
Those are all far points but Tuin's not a philosopher nor was he ever any kind of ruler he is not going to go looking for those answers, they are just going to seep into his consciousness long term. What he decides from there I'll see when the story reaches that point.
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Watching him have to confront these issues is going to not be a long-term thing. He is surrounded by nothing that reminds him of what he is used to, and in defiance of all Drow logic it's working.

It's hard to ignore that when your job (and well-being) hinges upon that.

Fair enough, maybe he's not introspective and explicitly does not want to think about it even though it's constantly quite pertinent.
 
Artemis1992 said:
To be fair to the D&D writers, they fully acknowledge that the Drow system and culture is horribly unstable.
Do you know the War of the Spider Queen series?
A few months of Loth's absence (no answering prayers or sending outsiders) nearly leads to a total collapse and no Drow is the least bit surprised about that consequence.
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That's mostly why I was confident in my statements rather than basically just inferring a lot of the details. Remove Lolth, and the system collapses instantly. If she's gone for a long period of time, to the point where an entirely new generation of Drow lived and died before she woke back up, the Drow she got back should probably be constantly bucking her authority because they do things in such a way that is actually, you know, sane, rational, for a species with lots of natural predators and enemies in the Deep Dark where even Drow will band together to survive, since better the devil you know who has your blood.
 
Crake said:
The lore makes no sense as it stood without Elves having existed at least some point, anyway.

I doubt it's all hunky-dory down there, but the Drow are generally more experienced and have higher level averages due to longer life spans and a highly competitive social environment, and a highly deadly natural environment.

They're held back much like the Skaven are, by ambitious rivals and lack of trust. Removal of Lolth might have actually made them more deadly since she left, and she is probably struggling with the concept that they are better off without her. And pissed. Really pissed.
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I expect that any Drow civilization in the Planetosi Underdark would have suffered a dramatic setback, or more likely a complete collapse, when magic faded and Lolth lost the ability to influence them. Survival in the Underdark is hard enough with magic. It's infinitely more difficult as a muggle, especially if you want to do so in some sort of civilized fashion. And if your civilization is a dysfunctional crazy clutsterfuck to begin with, well...

The present day Drow may be completely different than their ancient forebearers, and there is a decent chance Lolth is not recognized as their goddess any longer. I'm hoping that there are rival Drow factions at war with one another as we speak, with some supporting Lolth and the others opposed to them. That should keep them occupied and out of surface world business for a good long while.
 
Crake said:
Watching him have to confront these issues is going to not be a long-term thing. He is surrounded by nothing that reminds him of what he is used to, and in defiance of all Drow logic it's working.

It's hard to ignore that when your job (and well-being) hinges upon that.

Fair enough, maybe he's not introspective and explicitly does not want to think about it even though it's constantly quite pertinent.
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Well yes it is working and it's been working for a few years, but he is not quite ready to believe there is no chaos and ruin lurking just under the surface, If I were to make a guess as to when he will have his epiphany (and it may well end up something completely different based on circumstances) I would say the moment will be when he realizes Dany has no intention of usurping Viserys rather than just lying more skillfully than he can detect.
 
Goldfish said:
I expect that any Drow civilization in the Planetosi Underdark would have suffered a dramatic setback, or more likely a complete collapse, when magic faded and Lolth lost the ability to influence them. Survival in the Underdark is hard enough with magic. It's infinitely more difficult as a muggle, especially if you want to do so in some sort of civilized fashion. And if your civilization is a dysfunctional crazy clutsterfuck to begin with, well...

The present day Drow may be completely different than their ancient forebearers, and there is a decent chance Lolth is not recognized as their goddess any longer. I'm hoping that there are rival Drow factions at war with one another as we speak, with some supporting Lolth and the others opposed to them. That should keep them occupied and out of surface world business for a good long while.
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I, personally, would have a vested interest supporting those groups, but... that's a long-term goal at best. Too many plates spinning.
 
DragonParadox said:
Well yes it is working and it's been working for a few years, but he is not quite ready to believe there is no chaos and ruin lurking just under the surface, If I were to make a guess as to when he will have his epiphany (and it may well end up something completely different based on circumstances) I would say the moment will be when he realizes Dany has no intention of usurping Viserys rather than just lying more skillfully than he can detect.
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Dany is the real one in charge this entire time, she just likes Viserys doing all the paperwork and talking.

Proof: Little Sisters get their way EVERY TIME.

The only time she hasn't is when it was picking her Targaryen Madness, which used to be "martyr complex".
 
DragonParadox said:
Eight hundred and ten caskets would be traveling back to Sorcerer's Deep according to the Legion's final accounting, it would have been as much as three times as much in crippled soldiers and those who might perish from wound rot had it not been for access to healing magic. The worst losses were taken among the outriders on the left flank who had to weather the arrows of the enemy charioteers until the heavier cavalry could charge home and among the siege companies who traded salvos with the bone wagons of the enemy. Thankfully you had not lost any skyships through the valor of he manticore pilots and only three heralds on that push to the altar.
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@DragonParadox I don't understand if these three steel dragons are dead or not?
I must say that reading a discussion of some point changed in the text has always been very disorienting.

And one more thing. In this chapter, it was said in passing that Nirah is fighting Many The Lord of Kasath, and that's it. What are the results? Well, I understood from Nirah not specified in losses that he did not die, but he won? Or has Many escaped?

And the last I remember how you once said a long time ago that you delete the sheets of characteristics of dead characters. I VERY request you not to remove the sheets of the kings of Sarnor, and I hope you have not done so yet. For me personally, and I think not only for me, it was interesting to look at these characters ... if you want to keep their abilities a secret, then at least general information, level, mythical rank, final CR
 
Only two updates today guys, it's past midnight and I don't want to push myself and lose out on quality again

BTW I've been watching a documentary on the life of Nero and I struck me what a good CK2 quest it would make, being Nero age 16, in theory emperor of Rome, in practice caught between countless political interests. It would even excuse some of SV's wilder ideas. Nero was known for being a patron of the arts and quite eccentric.
 
Sapphon said:
@DragonParadox I don't understand if these three steel dragons are dead or not?
I must say that reading a discussion of some point changed in the text has always been very disorienting.

And one more thing. In this chapter, it was said in passing that Nirah is fighting Many The Lord of Kasath, and that's it. What are the results? Well, I understood from Nirah not specified in losses that he did not die, but he won? Or has Many escaped?

And the last I remember how you once said a long time ago that you delete the sheets of characteristics of dead characters. I VERY request you not to remove the sheets of the kings of Sarnor, and I hope you have not done so yet. For me personally, and I think not only for me, it was interesting to look at these characters ... if you want to keep their abilities a secret, then at least general information, level, mythical rank, final CR
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  1. They are not dead
  2. It fell apart in the interlude from Denys' PoV
  3. No one but the and the dead god had actual mythic ranks.
 
DragonParadox said:
Oh right, he was not actually a king which is why I missed him. As the queen's foil he had as many ranks as her.
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Not a king? What a news.
The fact is that when the war with Sarnor had just begun (well, it began for me), I did start looking. It is said that the Gold Company had formed an alliance with the Nine Fallen Kings of Sarnor. And exactly Sarnor had exactly nine cities. Well, in fact, eleven, but one has survived to this day - Saath, and the other was filled with spirits philosophers - Sallosh.
  1. Gornath, currently in ruins. Renamed Vaes Leqse, meaning City of Rats", by the Dothraki.
  2. Hornoth.
  3. Kasath, which had also been known as the City of Caravans, currently in ruins. Renamed Vojjor Samvi, meaning "The Broken Gods", by the Dothraki.
  4. Kyth.
  5. Mardosh, which had also been known as the City of Soldiers. Renamed Vaes Gorqoyi, meaning the "City of the Blood Charge", by the Dothraki.
  6. Rathylar.
  7. Sarnath, currently in ruins. Renamed Vaes Khewo, meaning "City of Worms", by the Dothraki.
  8. Sarys, currently in ruins. Renamed Vaes Graddakh, meaning "City of Filth", by the Dothraki.
  9. Sathar, which had also been known as the Waterfall City, currently in ruins. Renamed Yalli Qamayi, meaning "Wailing Children", by the Dothraki.
That is, everyone will have their own Undead King. I look forward to reading and continue reading!!!
 
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I've lost track, are we getting 3rd (4th? I've really lost track) Orphne Fey Lord in our hands as an "assign where needed"-unit by the start of 3rd month?
 
egoo said:
I've lost track, are we getting 3rd (4th? I've really lost track) Orphne Fey Lord in our hands as an "assign where needed"-unit by the start of 3rd month?
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We got our second the month we went to retrieve the Thenns... that was the... 1st Month, IIRC?

So okay, I did a bit of back tracking. The first oathsworn Shadow Fey lord joined at the start of the 10th Month. Technically we added on the second in the 1st Month. But we did want to originally space them out by 4 rather than 3 (honest mistake on our part back then, not like anybody pointed it out to me at the time).

It would be the 4th Month at the earliest if we decide to keep it to every 3 months. The former Orphne King was going to join at the end of the year regardless.
 
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