I agree with all of this, but I have to say that is also why the Faith aspects of the canon plot are so unsatisfying. Peasant rebellions are by their nature doomed, they are not revolutions, they do no transform society. Kill a few nobles, burn a few castles, but in the end the nobles are still going to noble and the peasants are still going to work the fields. It's practically impossible to root for them in canon because they are as depressing as they are directionless. GRRM wanted to show the struggles of ordinary people, the horrors of war, but by dressing them in the guise of religious fanaticism he basically made his underdogs unlikable, or at least less likable than they should have been. when the High Sparrow makes Cersei do her 'walk of shame' it's a lot easier to sympathize with Cersei than the Sparrow because that is a barbaric thing to do to anyone by modern sensibilities. So in the end we are still left rooting for Arya, for Jon and for Dany, nobles all not for the peasants and their priestly leaders.
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
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- Tags
- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
I agree with all of this, but I have to say that is also why the Faith aspects of the canon plot are so unsatisfying. Peasant rebellions are by their nature doomed, they are not revolutions, they do no transform society. Kill a few nobles, burn a few castles, but in the end the nobles are still going to noble and the peasants are still going to work the fields. It's practically impossible to root for them in canon because they are as depressing as they are directionless. GRRM wanted to show the struggles of ordinary people, the horrors of war, but by dressing them in the guise of religious fanaticism he basically made his underdogs unlikable, or at least less likable than they should have been. when the High Sparrow makes Cersei do her 'walk of shame' it's a lot easier to sympathize with Cersei than the Sparrow because that is a barbaric thing to do to anyone by modern sensibilities. So in the end we are still left rooting for Arya, for Jon and for Dany, nobles all not for the peasants and their priestly leaders.
- Location
- France
- You're right
- GRRM didn't exactly have a lot of options here, though. A revolution with a hope of success would have been wildly anachronistic for various reasons :
- It's not like the setting has a large mass of urban poor and a rising educated rich middle class who's barred from the aristocracy - so no 18th-century Western-style revolutions here, this is a peasant revolution.
- Peasant revolutions that work were often based on existing group/tribal identities differentiating the peasants from the nobles, but Westeros doesn't have that either.
- GRRM could have decided to dump in some equally anachronistic political philosophy and political organization, and gone for a 20th-century peasant revolution. IRL, every such peasant revolution I can think of (which didn't fail) involved an organized political party leading it, which doesn't fit the setting either. Sure the sparrows could have been that organizing political force, but they can't suggest another very different organization of society without a political tradition that doesn't fit the setting as it had been already been established. IRL, successful peasant revolutions explicitly fought for land reform and things like village/cooperative ownership of mills/dams/manufactories. They also fought for the end of serfdom/feudalism and changes in how the army and economy were organised. All this stemmed from political theory that Westeros just doesn't have. It doesn't even have the literate population or printing press which were required to kickstart the necessary period of mass education and ideological debate that made this possible IRL.
- tl;dr: GRRM either had to design the setting differently from the start, or accept that the people's revolt is as hopeless as everything else in these books.
- "The revolution is hopeless and hard to root for, and the anger of the people will lead to naught but more fruitless death" is perfectly on-theme for ASOIaF, and expecting anything else after reading the first four books wouldn't have made much sense.
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Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
I don't think they're "Heaven adjacent" though. I can't recall exactly, but didn't @DragonParadox tell us a while back that the Seven's Divine Realm is located in the Dreamlands or the Astral Plane? Either one of those would have some metaphysical distance with the Celestial Planes. That could very well be why their realm is set up further away, to take the pressure off those tasked with defending it from predators and enemies.
- Location
- Greece
The 7 only empowering a single champion each amuses me. However good those are (and the ones seen so far are not anything special), have they not heard of action economy?
No amount of mundane prayers are going to stop attacks against dozens of tiny settlements at the same time, or heal innumerable afflictions even the faintest whiff of magic could take care of.
No amount of mundane prayers are going to stop attacks against dozens of tiny settlements at the same time, or heal innumerable afflictions even the faintest whiff of magic could take care of.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
We've speculated in the past that the Seven's current response to the awakening of magic, especially their choice to only empower a single champion for each member of the pantheon, isn't what they would have preferred if they were able to make the decision rationally. It is instead what they were inadvertently forced into by the godsculpting carried out by their worshipers over the last several thousand years. With sacrifice to them strictly forbidden, the only power they receive from worshipers is tainted by the perceptions and beliefs of those worshipers, so the Seven now could be very different deities than they were 8,000 years ago.
Vote closed.
Part MMMDLXX: With Renewed Voice
With Renewed Voice
Twenty Eight Day of the First Month 294 AC
At least he is willing to listen to some of what your are saying. The impression you have gotten in this last conversation matches what you had already surmised of the of the Lord of Starfall. Not brittle iron likely to break at the first blow, but not yet subtle steel to bend with the changing of the world. "Lord Dayne, I'm glad you begin to understand my perspective on this, but allow me to elaborate for both of you so you know the depths to which I have given careful thought for the practices on both continents."
The lord nods willingly enough, his confessor grudgingly. You can hear the faint whisper of evening prayer through the walls of the sept, though you doubt either of them can.
"If secular power is wielded to the sole benefit, or rather," you pause, your tone making it clear you are addressing the point without expressly agreeing to it, "moral imperative of one faith, then any petition made by a non-proscribed faith practicing within the realm becomes a matter of 'extreme moral imperative'. Lord Andrew already understands that he would be better served attempting to convince others through discourse, and in this I encourage any brother or sister you would meet, Brother, to do the same."
"The Faith needs no encouragement to preach, Your Grace," Septon Erek tries to keep the anger out of his voice. To your ears he might as well not have tried. Had anyone actually explained the system here in Sorcerer's Deep and elsewhere, the Voices and the Councils, you wonder. If they had only been talking to priests and mages you would imagine not.
"Should it come to pass that a plurality in the Councils, local or otherwise, begin pushing ordinances to limit, or indeed outlaw the trade of flesh, which I find all too often easy to end up exploitative in regions where law enforcement is uneven or not as sophisticated as the more core provinces, then it shall be through common voice that these new laws are imposed." you continue.
"Voices?" Lord Dayne asks frowning slightly, trying to recall something of the matter and obviously finding on a arrow to his bow. "The Guild Councils you have for the city?"
"It goes quite a bit further than that," you explain, hopping this will not drag you into another conflict. Thankfully while Ser Andrew finds the idea alien he sees the benefits and even the septon seems to appreciate giving the 'smallfolk' a vote in how they are governed. "While getting any decision through the Councils will neither be a fast nor easy process, it is one which we should all content ourselves, because it will mean that no religious conflict could erupt to the detriment of all," you conclude.
That should get the message across, you can still 'win', within the rules and keep the laws in Westeros where the Red Priests are thin on the ground and more pleasing to the Faith. Though what would happen when, not if, the Red Priests launch a campaign of conversion you can only imagine. 'Sufficient onto the day the evils thereof', the quote from the Book of the Father floats to the forefront of your thoughts, probably by virtue of the fact that you have been trying to keep the theology of the matter in mind.
Something of the tenseness fades around Lord Andrew's eyes. "To each man his own coat and to each land its customs then, within the limits of the Crown's laws of course."
You turn to the priest one last time before parting. "I encourage you to press for more interactions between different faiths across the realm in the coming years. I believe it would lead to more mutual understanding and ease tensions more than simple proselytizing ever could. If nothing else it will ensure that people think critically of those Powers which they profess faith toward, which is the first step toward change in any group of worship."
Not that you expect him to change the age old practices of the Red Faith, but depending on how deeply he believes in the rightness of his cause he might hope to do so. The greater understanding will be useful regardless.
The lord leaves content, the septon thoughtful as much as worried. The best you could have gotten out of the conversation you suppose.
There is one other meeting you would have today. You reach out with power towards the Archmaester of Magic to ask for a meeting, but where might be best to tempt him into your service or at least a close alliance?
[] The Library to show all the lore you have available even to foreign scholars in good standing
[] The Scholarum to mark your feats of magic
[] The Golden Hearth, where gather all sorts of interesting and otherworldly folk from throughout your realm
[] Write in
OOC: The update would have felt more than a little disjointed if I continued to Marwyn so here's a chance to choose the venue since you guys initiated contact.
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Jack vile Ripper
The swellest guy in Creation.
- Location
- Indonesia
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If none of y'all tried to use Mythic Shadow of Doom, I'm gonna be really dissapointed.
- Location
- France
[X] The Golden Hearth, where gather all sorts of interesting and otherworldly folk from throughout your realm
Let's not try to wow him with magic and lore when we don't know what he's already seen. He's well-travelled (so he's seen a lot of magic already) and he's from the Citadel (so he's presumably already swimming in lore).
Let's not try to wow him with magic and lore when we don't know what he's already seen. He's well-travelled (so he's seen a lot of magic already) and he's from the Citadel (so he's presumably already swimming in lore).
Massgamer
Advance toward the Future
- Location
- The Future
If I had to choose one I would do Golden Hearth since Marwyn is not only a scholar but he is an explorer and regularly interacts with foreign peoples, something which earns him the scorn of his fellows. He has arguably learned more talking with people than he ever did with books in Citadel alone.
[X] The Golden Hearth, where gather all sorts of interesting and otherworldly folk from throughout your realm
[X] The Golden Hearth, where gather all sorts of interesting and otherworldly folk from throughout your realm
- Location
- Germany
[X] The Golden Hearth, where gather all sorts of interesting and otherworldly folk from throughout your realm
That party he had with him last meeting perfectly fits into that Inn.
I bet they could get half a dozen quest-offers in one evening there.
That party he had with him last meeting perfectly fits into that Inn.
I bet they could get half a dozen quest-offers in one evening there.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
[X] The Golden Hearth, where gather all sorts of interesting and otherworldly folk from throughout your realm
-[X] The tavern also kind of exemplifies a mark of the conversation you aren't shy about. Rather than dance around the idea that when you see someone who's service you desire, you will let no obstacle like distance or logistics get in your way of obtaining them. You will just be blunt about it.
-[X] While there's a cost to the benefits of serving you, the lengths you will go to are actually commiserate, compared to other offers anyone is likely to get, which should stand as an argument in itself for aligning with you.
-[X] The tavern also kind of exemplifies a mark of the conversation you aren't shy about. Rather than dance around the idea that when you see someone who's service you desire, you will let no obstacle like distance or logistics get in your way of obtaining them. You will just be blunt about it.
-[X] While there's a cost to the benefits of serving you, the lengths you will go to are actually commiserate, compared to other offers anyone is likely to get, which should stand as an argument in itself for aligning with you.
- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] The Golden Hearth, where gather all sorts of interesting and otherworldly folk from throughout your realm
- Location
- Germany
That's good additional reasoning, but does it have to be in the vote?
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Mostly visibility. Sometimes DP is paying really close attention to discussion and includes motives brought up there in Viserys' own, or in the visible motives that he acts upon which other characters react to. But being explicit about it is a good way to actually get a diplomatic bonus for some things (and a malus for others).
- Location
- Germany
But in this case there's no associated check to get a bonus on, it's just setting the stage.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Again, just visibility, and it colors the rest of the conversation. Do not be surprised if someone argued for setting a different tone, we could completely rearrange the people present at the tavern for the meeting to send a sufficiently different message.
Jack vile Ripper
The swellest guy in Creation.
- Location
- Indonesia
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Crake
- Location
- ferreries
[X] The Golden Hearth, where gather all sorts of interesting and otherworldly folk from throughout your realm
-[X] The tavern also kind of exemplifies a mark of the conversation you aren't shy about. Rather than dance around the idea that when you see someone who's service you desire, you will let no obstacle like distance or logistics get in your way of obtaining them. You will just be blunt about it.
-[X] While there's a cost to the benefits of serving you, the lengths you will go to are actually commiserate, compared to other offers anyone is likely to get, which should stand as an argument in itself for aligning with you.
-[X] The tavern also kind of exemplifies a mark of the conversation you aren't shy about. Rather than dance around the idea that when you see someone who's service you desire, you will let no obstacle like distance or logistics get in your way of obtaining them. You will just be blunt about it.
-[X] While there's a cost to the benefits of serving you, the lengths you will go to are actually commiserate, compared to other offers anyone is likely to get, which should stand as an argument in itself for aligning with you.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Made a few more edits to the chapter, DP.